Post Season Ramp-up and Roster

Rovin Romine

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There's been some discussion of the Post Season Roster in other threads (Post Season Poll, WC starter, etc.)

I thought it should have a dedicated thread - feel free to cut and paste your earlier comments here.

Issues:

1) Since we're most likely looking at a WC game, who is on the post-season roster for that game?
1a) What's your ideal lineup, and does that change with opponent/park?

2) If we win, can that change for the ALDS? If so, how, and what changes do you make?

3) Anyone know about any Post Season Covid rules?

4) Prior to that, what's going on with Arroyo/Iglesias? Should anybody get more or less practice time at any position?
 

scottyno

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The answer to #2 is definitely yes, your roster can change for every series.

Assuming they make the wild card the roster should look completely different than a potential roster if they make the ALDS. There is no reason to have all of your starters active for the wild card round, probably 2 at most because the rest are never going to pitch and you'd rather be able to add an extra reliever or a specialist (duran?) who might have at least a little situational value.
 

RedOctober3829

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Wild Card Game Roster
Lineup vs RH SP
Hernandez CF
Schwarber LF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Verdugo RF
Plawecki C
Arroyo 2B

Lineup vs. LHP SP
Hernandez CF
Renfroe RF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Schwarber LF
Vazquez C
Arroyo 2B

Bench
Plawecki or Vaz, Verdugo or Renfroe, Shaw, Arauz, Duran

Pitchers
Sale
Eovaldi
Houck
Whitlock
Ottavino
Richards
Barnes
Davis
Taylor
Hernandez
Robles
Brasier

Yes, my roster changes for the ALDS because you're putting all of the starters on the roster. I'd take Wong and a couple of relievers off(one of the lefties and either Sawamura or Brasier).

I would bring Arroyo back up for this weekend and let him get ramped back up at the major league level.
 
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Red Sox Physicist

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Wild Card Game Roster
Lineup vs RH SP
Hernandez CF
Schwarber LF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Verdugo RF
Plawecki C
Arroyo 2B

Lineup vs. LHP SP
Hernandez CF
Renfroe RF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Schwarber LF
Vazquez C
Arroyo 2B

Bench--I put a 3rd catcher on so that Cora could PH Plawecki if Vazquez starts.
Plawecki or Vaz, Verdugo or Renfroe, Shaw, Arauz, Duran, Wong

Pitchers
Sale
Eovaldi
Houck
Whitlock
Ottavino
Richards
Barnes
Davis
Taylor
Hernandez
Robles
Sawamura
Brasier

Yes, my roster changes for the ALDS because you're putting all of the starters on the roster. I'd take Wong and a couple of relievers off(one of the lefties and either Sawamura or Brasier).

I would bring Arroyo back up for this weekend and let him get ramped back up at the major league level.
The playoffs go back to a 26 man roster. That's 28.
 

nvalvo

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Too soon! Threads like this always worrying me
I've been itching to start a postseason priorities thread, so I'll spring to RR's defense here. At least this is only like ten games ahead.

It's important to talk about. I'll start: per all of the various postseason projections, the AL bracket looks to be shaping up as follows. Barring a remarkable implosion, the Rays are likely to take both the East title (98.8% — so, the sort of collapse we'd expect to see in a division leader every 16 years or so) and most likely the top seed. Fangraphs projects the Rays to be two games ahead of the Astros when all is said and done. The projections have Houston hosting Chicago for three fifths of one ALDS, and Tampa with home field against the WC winners.

So, as things stand today, the most likely outcomes have the Red Sox clinching WC 1 in the last few days of the season. The fact that we hold the tiebreaker against both NYY and TOR really helps here — even if we go into game 162 only up 1.0 game over our rival, we've clinched — and I think that is a big part of why Fangraphs gives us a 91% to take a WC spot despite only a 1.5 game lead with ten to play. Fangraphs also sees it as about twice as likely for Toronto to take the second slot than NY, and only grants about a 10% likelihood that it is Toronto and NY in that game, with Boston on the outside looking in.

So. Our rotation is lined up as such *crosses self*:

Sep 17 Sale (7-1 W against Baltimore)
Sep 18 Pivetta (9-3 W against Baltimore)
Sep 19 Eovaldi (8-6 W against Baltimore)
Sep 21 Rodriguez (6-3 W against NYM)
Sep 22 Sale against NYM (4 days rest)
Sep 24 Eovaldi against NYY (4 days rest, hopping Pivetta)
Sep 25 Pivetta against NYY (6 days rest)
Sep 26 Rodriguez against NYY (5 days rest)

Thus far things have been announced. But we can extrapolate.

Sep 28 Sale at Baltimore (5 days rest)
Sep 29 Eovaldi at Baltimore (4 days rest)
Sep 30 Pivetta at Baltimore (4 days rest)
Oct 1 Rodriguez at Washington (4 days rest)
Oct 2 Sale at Washington (4 days rest)
Oct 3 Eovaldi at Washington (4 days rest)

If we make the Wild Card Game *touches wood*:

Oct 5 WCG vs. TOR or NYY.

This would be Pivetta on 4 days rest, Rodriguez on 3, Sale on 2, or Eovaldi on 1. Unless we start, e.g., Martin Perez on Oct 3 because we've already clinched, and hold back Eovaldi to start this game on 6 days rest. Eovaldi matches up very well against NY, although they are no longer *quite* as right handed as they were, and acceptably against Toronto. I don't think any pitcher matches up well against Toronto, exactly.

So IMO, if we've clinched before that last game in Washington, it would be ideal to hold back Eovaldi to pitch in the WC game. But if we don't, and need to throw Sale and Eovaldi in the DC series, it's probably Houck and Pivetta piggy-backing in the WCG with all hands on deck. You could still ask Sale for an inning or two, but it would make more sense IMO to hold him back for a possible ALDS G1 on regular rest if you possibly can.

And, if we survive the WCG *says a silent prayer to BABIP*:

Oct 7 ALDS G1. Sale at TBR (4 days rest).
Oct 8 ALDS G2. Rodriguez at TBR (6 days rest).
Oct 10 ALDS G3. Eovaldi against TBR (4 days rest)
Oct 11 ALDS G4. Pivetta against TBR (?? days rest)
Oct 13 ALDS G5. Sale at TBR (5 days rest)
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I've been itching to start a postseason priorities thread, so I'll spring to RR's defense here. At least this is only like ten games ahead.

It's important to talk about. I'll start: per all of the various postseason projections, the AL bracket looks to be shaping up as follows. Barring a remarkable implosion, the Rays are likely to take both the East title (98.8% — so, the sort of collapse we'd expect to see in a division leader every 16 years or so) and most likely the top seed. Fangraphs projects the Rays to be two games ahead of the Astros when all is said and done. The projections have Houston hosting Chicago for three fifths of one ALDS, and Tampa with home field against the WC winners.

So, as things stand today, the most likely outcomes have the Red Sox clinching WC 1 in the last few days of the season. The fact that we hold the tiebreaker against both NYY and TOR really helps here — even if we go into game 162 only up 1.0 game over our rival, we've clinched — and I think that is a big part of why Fangraphs gives us a 91% to take a WC spot despite only a 1.5 game lead with ten to play. Fangraphs also sees it as about twice as likely for Toronto to take the second slot than NY, and only grants about a 10% likelihood that it is Toronto and NY in that game, with Boston on the outside looking in.


If we make the Wild Card Game *touches wood*:
One.... I didn't expect a WC berth to get someone so excited. But whatever.
Two... if the Sox don't get in RR and you are both responsible..... or my number 1 point is on mark and you clearly touched the wrong type of "wood".
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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There's been some discussion of the Post Season Roster in other threads (Post Season Poll, WC starter, etc.)

I thought it should have a dedicated thread - feel free to cut and paste your earlier comments here.

Issues:

1) Since we're most likely looking at a WC game, who is on the post-season roster for that game?
1a) What's your ideal lineup, and does that change with opponent/park?

2) If we win, can that change for the ALDS? If so, how, and what changes do you make?

3) Anyone know about any Post Season Covid rules?

4) Prior to that, what's going on with Arroyo/Iglesias? Should anybody get more or less practice time at any position?
4)
As I understand it, Iglesias isn’t eligible for postseason roster since he wasn’t in the organization on Sept 1.
 

Rovin Romine

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One.... I didn't expect a WC berth to get someone so excited. But whatever.
Two... if the Sox don't get in RR and you are both responsible..... or my number 1 point is on mark and you clearly touched the wrong type of "wood".
If they get in we'll both be expecting a nicely turned piece of woodcraft from you.
 

YTF

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The answer to #2 is definitely yes, your roster can change for every series.

Assuming they make the wild card the roster should look completely different than a potential roster if they make the ALDS. There is no reason to have all of your starters active for the wild card round, probably 2 at most because the rest are never going to pitch and you'd rather be able to add an extra reliever or a specialist (duran?) who might have at least a little situational value.
This. No need for a full pitching staff when extra bodies on the bench might be more beneficial. Duran as a PR and an extra bat or two depending on opponent, where the game is played and considerations should the game go extra innings.
 

Rovin Romine

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This. No need for a full pitching staff when extra bodies on the bench might be more beneficial. Duran as a PR and an extra bat or two depending on opponent, where the game is played and considerations should the game go extra innings.
I'd agree. A hypothetical WC game would turn on how Cora deals with the pitching - but if he's not too trigger happy, the back end of the bullpen can be tightened up in favor of some situational role-players. Duran makes sense. Although I wish we had developed someone as a base-stealing threat during the year.
 

YTF

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I'd agree. A hypothetical WC game would turn on how Cora deals with the pitching - but if he's not too trigger happy, the back end of the bullpen can be tightened up in favor of some situational role-players. Duran makes sense. Although I wish we had developed someone as a base-stealing threat during the year.
Yes Duran's speed doesn't necessarily = base running skills, but ya gotta go with whatcha got. Running into outs on the base paths is one of my top concerns with this team.
 

scottyno

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Danny Santana or Yairo Munoz are also options for speed off the bench if they ever get off the COVID list. Whichever of the 3 between them and Duran and organization trusts most to steal a base late in a close game should definitely be on a wild card game roster.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Danny Santana or Yairo Munoz are also options for speed off the bench if they ever get off the COVID list. Whichever of the 3 between them and Duran and organization trusts most to steal a base late in a close game should definitely be on a wild card game roster.
Considering neither Santana or Munoz are even rehabbing right now, I'd be hesitant to consider them for a post-season roster. In fact, I expect that Munoz won't be added back to the 40-man even when he comes off the IL.
 

E5 Yaz

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Wild Card Game Roster
Lineup vs RH SP
Hernandez CF
Schwarber LF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Verdugo RF
Plawecki C
Arroyo 2B

Lineup vs. LHP SP
Hernandez CF
Renfroe RF
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Martinez DH
Dalbec 1B
Schwarber LF
Vazquez C
Arroyo 2B

I wouldn't sit Renfroe or Verdugo just to play Arroyo. I'd put Keekay at 2B and Verdugo in center
 

RedOctober3829

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I wouldn't sit Renfroe or Verdugo just to play Arroyo. I'd put Keekay at 2B and Verdugo in center
If Arroyo is ready to go, the defensive alignment is much, much better with him at 2B and Hernandez in center. Over the course of the season, Hernandez is +11 DRS in CF compared to a -4 at 2B. Arroyo is a +4 in less than 50 games at 2B. It's tough too because you want Schwarber in the lineup especially against a RHP and you aren't sitting Dalbec at this point with him so hot. So, it comes down to Renfroe or Verdugo and I chose one of them based on the matchup. Against a lefty, you could sit Schwarber and play Verdugo if you wanted to.
 

joe dokes

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If Arroyo is ready to go, the defensive alignment is much, much better with him at 2B and Hernandez in center. Over the course of the season, Hernandez is +11 DRS in CF compared to a -4 at 2B. Arroyo is a +4 in less than 50 games at 2B. It's tough too because you want Schwarber in the lineup especially against a RHP and you aren't sitting Dalbec at this point with him so hot. So, it comes down to Renfroe or Verdugo and I chose one of them based on the matchup. Against a lefty, you could sit Schwarber and play Verdugo if you wanted to.
Based on last night, they might be sitting Dalbec if the opposing starter throws gas. No way I want to see Schwarber at 1B AND Verdugo in CF.
 

E5 Yaz

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If Arroyo is ready to go, the defensive alignment is much, much better with him at 2B and Hernandez in center. Over the course of the season, Hernandez is +11 DRS in CF compared to a -4 at 2B. Arroyo is a +4 in less than 50 games at 2B. It's tough too because you want Schwarber in the lineup especially against a RHP and you aren't sitting Dalbec at this point with him so hot. So, it comes down to Renfroe or Verdugo and I chose one of them based on the matchup. Against a lefty, you could sit Schwarber and play Verdugo if you wanted to.
I get that, but it comes down to the potential loss of defense vs whether Arroyo can get his stroke back. Plus, obv, how many players they keep on a bench vs in the pen
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I know he’s unpopular here for some reason but JD’s got an 868 ops this year and a 869 over the past month. Sitting JD to make room for Arroyo seems crazy to me and a risky move by Cora.

Hernandez is fine at second and I’m not convinced Verdugo’s relative struggles in center are meaningful at all.
 

RedOctober3829

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I know he’s unpopular here for some reason but JD’s got an 868 ops this year and a 869 over the past month. Sitting JD to make room for Arroyo seems crazy to me and a risky move by Cora.

Hernandez is fine at second and I’m not convinced Verdugo’s relative struggles in center are meaningful at all.
Hernandez is much, much better defensively in center field than at 2B this year and it's not particularly close in that regard.

I get that, but it comes down to the potential loss of defense vs whether Arroyo can get his stroke back. Plus, obv, how many players they keep on a bench vs in the pen
They are bad enough defensively. I don't think you want to make it worse by downgrading two positions if Hernandez is at 2B and Verdugo in CF. If Arroyo isn't hitting but is solid at 2B, I'm fine with sticking him in the 9 hole to align the rest of the defense the best they can. With the personnel they have, someone is going to be the odd man out whether that is Schwarber, Dalbec, Verdugo or Renfroe.
 

Rovin Romine

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They are bad enough defensively. I don't think you want to make it worse by downgrading two positions if Hernandez is at 2B and Verdugo in CF. If Arroyo isn't hitting but is solid at 2B, I'm fine with sticking him in the 9 hole to align the rest of the defense the best they can. With the personnel they have, someone is going to be the odd man out whether that is Schwarber, Dalbec, Verdugo or Renfroe.
I'd agree that the defense should dictate Hernandez in CF and Arroyo at 2B - at least to start any game.

For the bolded, LF at home is a touch fungible with Verdugo/Schwarber/JD, but I think you want Renfroe in RF at Fenway, always. Likewise Dalbec should start at 1B unless there's a clear Schwarber offensive upgrade (as we saw last night.)

Depending on the depth of their bench, you could always have the odd man out PH for someone in a key spot, then, if desired, stay in the game with the appropriate switch.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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If you start Arroyo and Hernandez- assuming the bench is Plawecki, one of JD/Schwarber/Verdugo and who else? Shaw? Arauz? Duran?

seems like once you use a PH you will lose that ideal defensive alignment anyways
 

chrisfont9

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I’m re-thinking Matt Barnes’ spot on a postseason roster. He did not pitch well tonight.
I'm sure Cora will do anything he can to get Barnes back on track, more mentally than anything else. He sounded like a guy who lost his confidence before the COVID bout, and if he can't get that back, you're right, he can't pitch in the WC game and can only pitch in an ALDS game if it's low-leverage.
 

Rovin Romine

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If you start Arroyo and Hernandez- assuming the bench is Plawecki, one of JD/Schwarber/Verdugo and who else? Shaw? Arauz? Duran?

seems like once you use a PH you will lose that ideal defensive alignment anyways
I don't see anyone (even Schwarber, assuming he starts on the bench), PHing for JD, Xander, Boegarts.

OTOH, the weakest hitters would be one of the catchers and Arroyo. C, 2B.

Situationally, you might want to have someone PH for Dalbec, Verdugo, Renfroe, or Hernandez. But this would be less likely. Maybe Schwarber on the bench and a relief pitcher chosen for the next batter's weakness, which Schwarber does not share.

The only real problem with a defensive replacement would be Arroyo (likely) or Hernandez (less likely to be PH for.)
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Why would you lose it? Hernandez will stay in center. Renfroe or Verdugo comes in to play the OF.
I am assuming Arroyo and Vazquez are most likely to be PH for; which leads to Plawecki catching late in games; and Arauz at 2b or Hernandez.

Ultimately, I’d rather start the better offensive lineup and being Arroyo in late but it’s a tough call. I think Kiki is fine at 2b, and Verdugo fine in center.

I guess it depends on who they are facing too; harder to sit Schwarber or Verdugo vs Cole than it is Robbie Ray.
 

grimshaw

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The Sox are 96.4% odds to make the post season so this would be my hypothetical roster for the wild card game since it would differ from the next round.

Starters
1B Dalbec
2b Arroyo
SS Bogaerts
3b Devers
LF JDM
CF K Hernandez
RF Renfroe
DH Schwarber
C Vazquez

Bench
Plawecki
Verdugo
Shaw
Duran
Arauz
Wong

If it's a hard throwing righty like Cole, then I'd start Dalbec on the bench and pinch hit him at the optimal spot and start Verdugo instead. The game is all about matchups so I would expect liberal use of pinch hitting (hence three catchers). You don't need more than 10 pitchers (or fewer really). Since it's only one game, you can use a guy like Duran or Arauz to pinch run. There really isn't an excuse to have a poor hitter up in a high leverage situation with the 3 batter rule.

Pitchers
In order of preference when we see them come in. It hasn't been Chris Fucking Sale yet.

Eovaldi
Sale
Whitlock
Houck
Richards
Taylor
Hernandez
Davis
Robles
Brasier

Rodriguez or Barnes if it's a favorable blow out to save the other arms. I don''t see Pivetta in this game. I am not a Sawamura fan.
 

vadertime

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A little clarity added today.

Arauz & Duran were officially taken off the COVID list and optioned to AAA. Hartlieb & Rios DFA in the corresponding 40 man moves.
 

nvalvo

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I know he’s unpopular here for some reason but JD’s got an 868 ops this year and a 869 over the past month. Sitting JD to make room for Arroyo seems crazy to me and a risky move by Cora.

Hernandez is fine at second and I’m not convinced Verdugo’s relative struggles in center are meaningful at all.
He's unpopular because he was terrible last season, and then his year this year has been three weeks of 1.200 OPS and then ~100 games of a sub-.800 OPS. He has picked it up in the last two weeks, it's true. But he was an expensive mediocrity for about four months.

I am not saying sit him in the postseason, but I would try to trade him if he chooses to stay.
 

MtPleasant Paul

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He's unpopular because he was terrible last season, and then his year this year has been three weeks of 1.200 OPS and then ~100 games of a sub-.800 OPS. He has picked it up in the last two weeks, it's true. But he was an expensive mediocrity for about four months
If one wants a classic example of cherry picking, this is it.
 

GB5

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I would sit Dalbec against Gerrit Cole tonight and also in a potential WC game if Cole is on the bump. He plays against every other starting pitcher for Toronto or NYY

My semi rational yet no information fear is that we have seen the last of Whitlock for the year. Coming off an injury and a layoff year it would not stun me if they give him the kid gloves with this injury and send him home.
 

nvalvo

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He's unpopular because he was terrible last season, and then his year this year has been three weeks of 1.200 OPS and then ~100 games of a sub-.800 OPS. He has picked it up in the last two weeks, it's true. But he was an expensive mediocrity for about four months
If one wants a classic example of cherry picking, this is it.
That's fair, and I can see why you'd say that. "If you exclude all the weeks when he was good, he was terrible."

I'm saying two things: one is that his *popularity* on the board — see what I was responding to — declined during the four months he was playing poorly.

The other thing is that this inconsistency makes me a bit wary of him as he gets into his mid-thirties, especially if we're going to try to improve our team defense this offseason as I believe would be wise. I think he's still basically worth his contract, so it's not like he's some sort of anchor. But if he doesn't opt out, it would probably be pretty easy to find takers for him at 2/$45m, maybe even bringing a modestly valuable return.

I can think of other ways we could spend that money.
 

jon abbey

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That's fair, and I can see why you'd say that. "If you exclude all the weeks when he was good, he was terrible."

I'm saying two things: one is that his *popularity* on the board — see what I was responding to — declined during the four months he was playing poorly.

The other thing is that this inconsistency makes me a bit wary of him as he gets into his mid-thirties, especially if we're going to try to improve our team defense this offseason as I believe would be wise. I think he's still basically worth his contract, so it's not like he's some sort of anchor. But if he doesn't opt out, it would probably be pretty easy to find takers for him at 2/$45m, maybe even bringing a modestly valuable return.

I can think of other ways we could spend that money.
He only has one year left if he opts in, contract ends after 2022.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Didn’t he just flat out say “no” to learning 1st base?
I don't remember if he flat out said no, but the fact that he's never donned a first baseman's mitt suggests he did. And after waiting nearly until the last minute before he was signed by the Sox, you'd think he'd be open to anything that might increase his value and appeal to teams. Sure, he got $100M+, but he was still there for the Sox because he insisted that he was a full-time OF and wanted to be paid like one while everyone else saw that he was a DH. He's always struck me as a bit stubborn and inflexible. It has made him a successful player, but also has been frustrating during the down times (his slavish reliance on video apparently affecting him in the video-less 2020 season, for example).

I don't see him opting out.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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JD Martinez OPS by month

1175
801
788
806
787
853

Bogaerts, Devers, and Martinez are all within 20 OPS points of each other this year. The criticism JD has gotten this season seems overdone; he’s been a key part of this teams success. Even in his worst months he’s been fine.
 

cantor44

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I like the symbolism of the yellow unis, but don't like the unis themselves. It maddens me that they are being worn because of superstition. Yet. I'm superstitious. (very well I contradict myself, i am large, I contain multitudes). SO .... hopping on this thread has me breaking out in a sweat. Ya know the folks at Shea were jinxing the Sox in 1986, when they congratulated them on the jumbotron before the last out, right?

Improved D major factor in current winning streak. With Iglesias at second, an improved Dalbec at first, and Hernandez anchoring the outfield in center, the team is more balanced. No Iglesias, I know, but Arroyo has been good at second when he's been there. I hope they maintain this balance in the post season.

That might mean one of Verdugo, Scwarber, or Martinez sit. Maaaaaybe Dalbec doesn't start against the hardest throwing righties, as his numbers there are still his achilles ....I know it seems crazy to sit Martinez, but that's what the Schwarber deal has meant. Either that, or you sacrifice D ... maybe there's a give and take:

VS L:
CF: Hernandez, SS: Bogaerts, DH: Schwarber, LF: Martinez, RF: Renfroe, 3B: Devers, 1B: Dalbec, C: Plawecki, 2B: Arroyo
(sub in Verdugo in LF if ahead late; Verdugo has extreme L/R splits, hence no start)

VS R:
CF: Hernandez, DH: Schwarber, SS: Bogaerts, 3B: Devers, LF: Verdugo, RF: Renfroe, 1B: Dalbec, C: Vazquez, 2B: Arroyo

Alternative R (vs specific hard-throwing starters):
CF: Hernandez, 1B: Schwarber, SS: Bogaerts, 3B: Devers, DH: Martinez, LF: Verdugo, RF: Renfroe, C: Vazquez, 2B: Arroyo
(sub in Dalbec or Shaw at 1B if ahead late)

13 position players and 13 pitchers:

Position: Vazquez, Plawecki, Dalbec, Shaw, Arroyo, Bogaerts, Devers, Schwarber, Verdugo, Martinez, K. Hernandez, Renfroe, annnnd ... Santana! Yes, Santana - can cover all positions in an emergency and can pinch run. Versatility gives him the nod over Duran as last man on bench.

Pitchers: Starters: Eovaldi, Sale, Erod, Pivetta. Pen: Whitlock, Houck, Ottavino, Taylor, D. Hernandez, Richards, Robles, Davis, AND .... (one of: Barnes, Braiser, Sawamura, whoever has the best last 9 games and seems to be right).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,433
I'll actually root for a loss (assuming that they already have home field in the WC wrapped up tightly) on the first game in DC so they can put those damned things away for good.