Positional Switches - good or bad?

[grimshaw]

I figured this may deserve it's own thread since it's a hot topic. How do you all think the Sox have fared when it comes to moving players around to make room for someone else or jam them in because they brought better offense to the table?

The most obvious flop was signing Hanley to play left field. Mookie worked out just fine in rightfield - practically as a platinum glover.

Other names I recall were moving Youkilis to 1st and then back to 3rd. Mike Lowell moved to 1b his final season in Boston.

I don't have the current time to dig deeper, but my gut says moving guys around has been more good than bad, but mostly much ado about nothing.

 

[jwbasham84]

We loved Schwarber's bat and influence on the team's hitting... but he was terrifying at first base and so poor at it that he was excited when he made routine plays.... I really really don't want to go through that again.

 

[joe dokes]

John Valentin moved twice from SS (to 2B and then to 3B) and it seemed successful.
George Scott moving from 3B to 1B was a good thing. As was Reggie Smith from 2B to CF.

 

[ookami7m]

Blake Swihart's move to LF may have ended any chances he had of a real MLB career.

 

[yeahlunchbox]

Maybe it's recency bias, but I think it's been mostly bad. Chaim Bloom trying to steal from basketball and create positionless baseball has been the biggest reason why our defense has been so poor of late. People wanted to blame Cora, but there's only so much a coaching staff can do, especially in season, to teach someone a position and/or get them to improve in the field.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I figured this may deserve it's own thread since it's a hot topic. How do you all think the Sox have fared when it comes to moving players around to make room for someone else or jam them in because they brought better offense to the table?

The most obvious flop was signing Hanley to play left field. Mookie worked out just fine in rightfield - practically as a platinum glover.

Other names I recall were moving Youkilis to 1st and then back to 3rd. Mike Lowell moved to 1b his final season in Boston.

I don't have the current time to dig deeper, but my gut says moving guys around has been more good than bad, but mostly much ado about nothing.

It all depends on the player, IMO. Age when they make the change is a big factor, as is their overall athleticism. Much easier for a lithe, athletic 22 year old middle infielder to move to the outfield and become a gold glover (hello Mookie) than it is for a stiff, bulked up 31 year old shortstop to move to the outfield (hello Hanley). Moving down the defensive spectrum but staying in the same part of the field usually goes well, hence the number of guys who've successfully moved from 3B (and SS and 2B) to 1B, even in later stages of their career.

 

[OCD SS]

I think we need to draw the distinction between moving a player to a new position that they will then play everyday, and a TB Rays style moving everyone around the diamond like you have 3 or 4 Ben Zobrists on your roster. In that regard having a player like Rafaella is really helpful, especially if he defends at a high level - he’s covering a lot of potential holes on this team and I think the depth he provides is underrated.

For players who are going to have a set primary position, I think you can reference their tools against the defensive spectrum, but ultimately guys are going to move down spectrum, and they’re going to get worse as they get older. Remember, defensive “peak” is usually thought to be a couple years earlier than that for offense. Youks went from an average 3B to a fantastic 1B, but moving him back to 3B was a disaster. With Bregman, the only real idea that he can play 2B comes from him, and his buddy Cora who declared him “athletic enough”, for which it’s not borne out by his actual MI performance when he was closer to his athletic/defensive peak.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Carlton Fisk would occasionally play some games in the OF. Jerry Remy made a pretty disastrous appearance in the OF. Kevin Youkilis did a scrambly stretch in the outfield, but he did avoid a Swihart episode.

Gold glover Dwight Evans tried to switch to playing 1B full time but abandoned it after a (guesstimate) month or two.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Maybe it's recency bias, but I think it's been mostly bad. Chaim Bloom trying to steal from basketball and create positionless baseball has been the biggest reason why our defense has been so poor of late. People wanted to blame Cora, but there's only so much a coaching staff can do, especially in season, to teach someone a position and/or get them to improve in the field.

I think this is something that has been repeated while it isn't actually very true. What Bloom did and what a lot of posters here are advocating for is for slugging types to get moved to downgraded defensive positions with the assumption (not always right... not always wrong) that the transition wouldn't be horrifying but they'd keep their bat in the lineup. As bad as Schwarber was at 1B.... adding his bat to the lineup helped to carry the team into the playoffs that season.
Otherwise it's not like he was just randomly moving like Devers to RF and Story to C and JBJ to SS. The "defensive flexibility" was kept to within certain parameters of the individual players respective athleticism. Expecting Devers to succeed at 1B for 25 games while, say... also playing 3B for 60 games and then to DH the other half of the season isn't crazy to me. Asking him to play SS and then 2B and then CF would obviously be.

That said..... responding directly to the idea of getting Bregman at 2B is closer to asking him to become a SS than to be a 1B. He'd be moving up a level in defensive difficulty, not down. Could he handle 1B. I would expect so.... as good as Casas looked like he was going to be before his injury? Now I'm not so sure. Maybe not

 

[Saints Rest]

There have been some historically great ones -- or at least moves by great players that did not impact them:

• Yaz (LF to 1B)
• Robin Yount (SS to CF)
• Craig Biggio (C to 2B plus a bit of OF)

All of them were defensive stalwarts at their initial position before making their moves. I don't think it works as well when you are trying to make silk purses out of defensive sows' ears.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Some very good observations here. I think the key factors are minimizing the number of new things a player has to learn and , maybe, most importantly the willingness of the player moving.

Moving around in the infield along the Defensive Spectrum should be relatively easy. Each position has its unique skill sets but in general it’s see grounder, catch grounder.

Likewise in the Of

Red Sox examples from the 70s - veritable moving chairs

Rico Petrocelli moved the 3rd base twice to accommodate the immortal Luis Alvarado and later to accommodate Luis Aparicio - worked for Rico - the team not so much as both replacement SSs were terrible.

George Scott (GG at 1B) moved to 3B to accommodate Yaz - decidedly didn’t work - Scott was terrible , and then got traded to Milwaukee. The knock on effect was equally bad - see below.

Yaz to 1B to accommodate many players - Billy Conigliaro then Tommy Harper then Ben Oglivy and eventually some guy called Jim Rice. Certainly prolonged his career. Billy C flopped, Oglivy was traded. Harper was good for a couple of years (he hit a HR in my first game at Fenway in 71)

Of course part of the problem was the Sox were brimming with young talent and had no place to play them.

I digress - if Devers doesn’t want to move off of 3B that would certainly affect his learning curve at 1B.

Sure, you can say they are paid to be baseball players and should play wherever the managers want them to play. But happy, comfortable players tend to perform better than unhappy, unsettled players.

 

[iddoc]

It all depends on the player, IMO. Age when they make the change is a big factor, as is their overall athleticism. Much easier for a lithe, athletic 22 year old middle infielder to move to the outfield and become a gold glover (hello Mookie) than it is for a stiff, bulked up 31 year old shortstop to move to the outfield (hello Hanley). Moving down the defensive spectrum but staying in the same part of the field usually goes well, hence the number of guys who've successfully moved from 3B (and SS and 2B) to 1B, even in later stages of their career.

Signing Hanley to play LF was a creative move in an environment of scarcity of RH power-hitting outfielders. He was not that old and was moving well down the defensive spectrum, but it just didn’t work out, perhaps because he didn’t prepare properly (including the nature of his conditioning). Then he switched positions again, to 1B, and was adequate.

And then there is Brock Holt. I think his OF experience was very limited before coming here, and he acquitted himself just fine.

 

[ramfan]

There have been some historically great ones -- or at least moves by great players that did not impact them:

• Yaz (LF to 1B)
• Robin Yount (SS to CF)
• Craig Biggio (C to 2B plus a bit of OF)

All of them were defensive stalwarts at their initial position before making their moves. I don't think it works as well when you are trying to make silk purses out of defensive sows' ears.

Isn't there a difference between people who were good or functional at their original position defensively who moved when they got older vs people who were always terrible at their original position?

 

[jacklamabe65]

Anyone remember when Yaz played 3B for a spell? Not good. Not good at all.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Anyone remember when Yaz played 3B for a spell? Not good. Not good at all.

Not me

 

[Saints Rest]

Isn't there a difference between people who were good or functional at their original position defensively who moved when they got older vs people who were always terrible at their original position?

That was the point of my final statement

 

[YTF]

Anyone remember when Yaz played 3B for a spell? Not good. Not good at all.

I had no recollection at all so I went to b-ref to see exactly when this happened. I found 2 games started at 3B in 1964 I was just 3 so it makes sense that I didn't remember, he completed both games and made no errors. That didn't look so back, but then I scrolled down a bit and saw that he played another 32 games at 3rd in '73 and committed 12 errors. As Eck might say, YUCK.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I had no recollection at all so I went to b-ref to see exactly when this happened. I found 2 games started at 3B in 1964 I was just 3 so it makes sense that I didn't remember, he completed both games and made no errors. That didn't look so back, but then I scrolled down a bit and saw that he played another 32 games at 3rd in '73 and committed 12 errors. As Eck might say, YUCK.

You don't say

 

[Timduhda]

It takes a special player, physically and mentally to thrive after a position change. Cal Ripken Jr was a solid SS and as he got older, the O,s wanted tManny Alexander to take over. Granted Alexander didn’t last so they signed Mike Bordick to be their shortstop. Ripken has always said it was a difficult transition (22 errors that first year) and most of it was mental.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

You don't say

Ha!

Yaz was signed out of college as a middle infielder. He came up in the thread for his move to 1B later in his career, but he pulled a Mookie in his last minor league season, moving to the outfield specifically so he could be Ted's heir apparent.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Ha!

Yaz was signed out of college as a middle infielder. He came up in the thread for his move to 1B later in his career, but he pulled a Mookie in his last minor league season, moving to the outfield specifically so he could be Ted's heir apparent.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I must have looked at that card 50 times and never noticed it says 2nd B.

 

[FernMason]

Thanks

 

[Youkilis vs Wild]

Just because it hasn't been mentioned -- Story has disappointed from a health perspective and probably offensively as well, but his run at 2B in 2022 was very, very good. Gives some confidence that he could slide back there in the latter part of his contract if somebody (*cough*Mayer*cough*) forces the issue.

 

[Dewey'sCannon]

Just because it hasn't been mentioned -- Story has disappointed from a health perspective and probably offensively as well, but his run at 2B in 2022 was very, very good. Gives some confidence that he could slide back there in the latter part of his contract if somebody (*cough*Mayer*cough*) forces the issue.

Among the reasons I see no need for Bregman - between Story, Grissom, Campbell, Hamilton and Mayer, I think we should be able to find two to provide some measure of quality at 2B and SS. And I don't see Bregman displacing Devers at 3B, because I don't see them dealing either Casas (too valuable) or Yoshida (not valuable enough to justify his contract).

 

[AbbyNoho]

Not me

I never understood your username, I thought it was some joke I didn't get, because I had no idea he actually spent any time there. Wow

 

[joe dokes]

I never understood your username, I thought it was some joke I didn't get, because I had no idea he actually spent any time there. Wow

I wonder if the Sons of Celerino Sanchez has a poster named E6Mantle?

 

[E5 Yaz]

I never understood your username, I thought it was some joke I didn't get, because I had no idea he actually spent any time there. Wow

It was either going to be that, or E2 Greenwell

 

[Didot Fromager]

This probably isn't what the OP had in mind, but when you say "How do you all think the Sox have fared when it comes to moving players around ... because they brought better offense to the table?" does Babe Ruth count? In 1917 he was a pitcher and occasional pinch hitter, in 1918 he moved back and forth, and in 1919, his last year with the Red Sox, he played 118 games in the field while pitching only 17. From then on, he only pitched 4 games in his career as an MFY.