POLL: Drew Pomeranz for Anderson Espinoza

Who "Won" the trade


  • Total voters
    471
  • Poll closed .

nvalvo

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I believe the 0.9 win improvement that FanGraphs is based on what probably would be an optimistic projection of Buchholz or whoever would be pitching in Pomeranz's place. For example, Pomeranz's had a first half WAR of 2.5 but O'Sullivan had a WAR of -0.3 and Buchholz had a WAR of -0.8.
This is worth emphasizing. This projection has heavily regressed both Pomeranz' very good and Buchholz' very bad first half performances in projecting the second half. There was a 3 win separation between the two pitchers' first halves; projecting a one win difference means doubting that Pomeranz is that good AND that Buchholz is that bad.

That may be reasonable, but it certainly downplays the difference this could make. If either or both first halves are in fact predictive, the difference will be bigger than Fangraphs projects.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't know who mentioned it (Ras maybe?), but holy shit, the Sox Prospects forum is an amazing read. Ran over when the board just went down for s bit and I'm only halfway through it, but it actually makes even the most reactionary posts here look tame. There was actually a suggestion to go stage a protest at Fenway. If the board hadn't come back here I probably would have created an account over there just for fun.
 

OptimusPapi

Jiminy Cricket
Mar 6, 2014
295
I don't know who mentioned it (Ras maybe?), but holy shit, the Sox Prospects forum is an amazing read. Ran over when the board just went down for s bit and I'm only halfway through it, but it actually makes even the most reactionary posts here look tame. There was actually a suggestion to go stage a protest at Fenway. If the board hadn't come back here I probably would have created an account over there just for fun.
If you convince a bunch of them to go to Fenway and stage a protest, I will donate a hundred dollars to the Jimmy Fund.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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If you convince a bunch of them to go to Fenway and stage a protest, I will donate a hundred dollars to the Jimmy Fund.
Sadly, the premise was that the trade wasn't final yet and they could stop it. Too late now. Though there's probably potential to get them to do it to have DD's head on a pike.

It really is a glorious thread. I highly recommend.
 

FanSinceBoggs

seantwo
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Jan 12, 2009
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It was a good trade for both teams.

I didn't like the Kimbrel trade from the Red Sox vantage point. I think they traded too many assets for a closer and I question whether that kind of transaction is sabermetrically sound. DD needed to wait out the trade market for closers--a better option would soon surface.

In contrast, Pomeranz is a number 2 starter, or at least I think he is a number 2 starter based on his ability to miss bats, ground ball percentage, and strikeout ratio. He is also 27 and under team control for a few more seasons. To obtain that kind of pitcher, you have to give up a really good, highly coveted, top prospect. According to rumors, the Red Sox tried to acquire a number 2 starter by dealing Swihart, but Swihart has lost some of his luster and wasn't going to bring back that kind of pitcher. The Red Sox had to give up a bigger prize.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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It was a good trade for both teams.

I didn't like the Kimbrel trade from the Red Sox vantage point. I think they traded too many assets for a closer and I question whether that kind of transaction is sabermetrically sound. DD needed to wait out the trade market for closers--a better option would soon surface.
They traded a blocked CF prospect with solid defense who is OPSing .766 in the PCL and projects to what? Brett Gardner as a ceiling? Nice player but we have three CFs that are better.

They traded a 20 yo (hopefully) blocked SS who had a power surge for one season and is currently hitting .204/.262/.336 in 85 games in high A.

They traded a 24 yo middle infielder (again, blocked) who was OPSing .708 in AA.

And they traded a low A 18 yo pitcher who was not a high pedigree prospect but has performed well this season in high A.

They did this to fill a big hole in the bullpen with one of the best of his caliber. Even despite Kimbrel's non-rockstar closer performance this year, the only guy I even kinda regret is Allen. The other three knock yourself out.[/QUOTE]
 
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LondonSox

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Jul 15, 2005
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The problem with that line of thinking is not that it wasn't worth moving these guys in the right deal but was this the right deal.
A high cost to pay a closer a high salary.

I think the question is could you have used those assets for trade better? Rather than defending the trade because the prospects were expendable. For example, if you needed a starter in the season say.

Overall I don't think it's an awful trade for Pomeranz, I am personally higher on Espinoza and dubious Pomeranz can stay this good for another 100 innings this year. If I'm wrong on Pomeranz I'm fine with it. Not happy. So I totally can see people thinking Pomeranz has turned the corner and being happy with the trade. I don't know how you can be confident given he's already at his high innings.

But you could argue kimbrel cost the Sox Espinoza. As that package is probably enough for Pomeranz? Can't be sure. I don't like overpaying to overpay a "closer". But I know again many feel differently. But anyway I think that it's a what else could they have done with those prospects question more than a were they blocked/ safe to trade (which they probably were).
You trade the blocked expendable guys so you don't have to trade a potential ace like Espinoza.
 

simplicio

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The problem with that line of thinking is not that it wasn't worth moving these guys in the right deal but was this the right deal.
A high cost to pay a closer a high salary.

I think the question is could you have used those assets for trade better? Rather than defending the trade because the prospects were expendable. For example, if you needed a starter in the season say.

Overall I don't think it's an awful trade for Pomeranz, I am personally higher on Espinoza and dubious Pomeranz can stay this good for another 100 innings this year. If I'm wrong on Pomeranz I'm fine with it. Not happy. So I totally can see people thinking Pomeranz has turned the corner and being happy with the trade. I don't know how you can be confident given he's already at his high innings.

But you could argue kimbrel cost the Sox Espinoza. As that package is probably enough for Pomeranz? Can't be sure. I don't like overpaying to overpay a "closer". But I know again many feel differently. But anyway I think that it's a what else could they have done with those prospects question more than a were they blocked/ safe to trade (which they probably were).
You trade the blocked expendable guys so you don't have to trade a potential ace like Espinoza.
Have you read the thread? It's been mentioned several times that DD tried dangling multiple lesser pieces for Pomeranz and SD didn't bite. Espinoza was their guy. That was the cost.

Also, I wish people would quit it with this "Kimbrel was a bad trade" thing. We picked up one of the very few exceptions to the "relievers are volatile and a bad investment" rule; the guy has been consistently excellent his entire career, stretching back to 2010, and we got him for three years. In return we gave up a guy who projects to be a decent (not great, not necessarily even good) ML center fielder and some lottery tickets (Guerra had helium last year, yes, and now he doesn't. That's how prospects go). None of them except Allen had even a remote chance of coming to Boston. None of them are exciting. None of them are going to be the headline in a trade for a good starter or position player upgrade; they're the plus in a "Devers +". They're exactly the type of guys you you pack in pairs for something like a Zeigler rental. We just added a couple more and turned it into three years of Craig Kimbrel. That's great for us, why would anyone possibly be down on that?
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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It was a good trade for both teams.

I didn't like the Kimbrel trade from the Red Sox vantage point. I think they traded too many assets for a closer and I question whether that kind of transaction is sabermetrically sound. DD needed to wait out the trade market for closers--a better option would soon surface.
Which better option soon surfaced after Kimbrel was traded? If all he had to do was wait, this should be easy to answer.
 

simplicio

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Which better option soon surfaced after Kimbrel was traded? If all he had to do was wait, this should be easy to answer.
Must be referencing Chapman; some people seem to be okay with overlooking domestic abuse if the abusers help their favorite sports teams win.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Must be referencing Chapman; some people seem to be okay with overlooking domestic abuse if the abusers help their favorite sports teams win.
Also seem to overlook the fact that Chapman was the first choice and it was the Red Sox who found out about the DV incident first (before the Reds). They backed off because a) morals and b) the price hadn't dropped yet.

If they hadn't backed off and gone with Kimbrel, the price would not have dropped for the Yankees to take advantage.
 

johnnywayback

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Which better option soon surfaced after Kimbrel was traded? If all he had to do was wait, this should be easy to answer.
Signing Darren O'Day and trading the guys we traded for Kimbrel, plus Swihart, for a starting pitcher.

Back on topic, speaking as someone who was very unhappy about the deal when it was announced, I've grown to be less unhappy.

I still think the Sox gave up more than they got -- yes, not all prospects pan out, and, yes, there is risk on both sides, but in terms of current-day trade value, a top-3 pitching prospect has more than a guy with a minimal track record of success as a starter. What's changed is my understanding of the trade market. Someone, either Bradford or Abraham, tweeted that the Sox hadn't seen any of the Rays pitchers as possibilities. Someone else noted that the A's were holding out for Espinoza in a Hill deal. The Braves, famously, are asking for the moon for Teheran, and can plausibly claim to be keeping him if they don't get it.

If you wipe all those options off the board, and the Sox scouts really didn't think any of Santana, Hellickson, Cashner, etc. would represent upgrades over Buchholz, then the overpay for Pomeranz starts to look defensible.

And then, I'd been holding out hope for an off-season trade for Sale or Fernandez -- but it's possible that DD believes that neither the White Sox nor the Marlins are going to make that move. Maybe there is no "three prospects for Pedro" young ace trade to be made. And if that's also the case -- if Pomeranz is the best pitcher who's going to get traded between now and next April -- then overpaying for him starts to look not just defensible, but necessary.
 

LondonSox

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Have you read the thread? It's been mentioned several times that DD tried dangling multiple lesser pieces for Pomeranz and SD didn't bite. Espinoza was their guy. That was the cost.

Also, I wish people would quit it with this "Kimbrel was a bad trade" thing. We picked up one of the very few exceptions to the "relievers are volatile and a bad investment" rule; the guy has been consistently excellent his entire career, stretching back to 2010, and we got him for three years. In return we gave up a guy who projects to be a decent (not great, not necessarily even good) ML center fielder and some lottery tickets (Guerra had helium last year, yes, and now he doesn't. That's how prospects go). None of them except Allen had even a remote chance of coming to Boston. None of them are exciting. None of them are going to be the headline in a trade for a good starter or position player upgrade; they're the plus in a "Devers +". They're exactly the type of guys you you pack in pairs for something like a Zeigler rental. We just added a couple more and turned it into three years of Craig Kimbrel. That's great for us, why would anyone possibly be down on that?
Well I don't know how to tell you this but San Diego probably liked the prospects that we traded them. If they hadn't done the kimbrel trade then maybe the players they liked in that trade would have been enough for pomeranz. That's it. I wasn't suggesting other pieces for this trade. Just joking that if they hadn't used the pieces on kimbrel they may have been able to use them for pomeranz.

As for the rest. That's you opinion. If you want to look into all the research that suggests overpaying for a "proven closer" is generally a bad idea. Let alone trading a lot of talent to pay the guy a lot. You are welcome to believe that this is wrong. And there is certainly a case that kimbrel is one of the exceptions. Except he's aging has been down this year and hurt of course.
And as for who could not like the trade. Well anyone who doesn't believe in expensive closers. Which is plenty of people. Many prospect watchers and sites thought the Sox significantly overpaid. Fwiw.
So who? Lots of people who do this professionally.
Plus of course Margot is rated higher by many than devers. I disagree. But the point is to say devers + and ignore the value of Margot is a bit odd.

The Sox have done a lot of trades for relievers and the hit ratio seems poor. I liked the Smith trade a lot more, although obviously that has been unfortunate. Young, cheap, good. Vs old, expensive and good.

Point being the idea these things are obvious and one sided is clearly not a very nuanced position. There is an opinion here. There is a philosophical difference on team building and esp how to build a pen.

Regardless both are done I'd be delighted to see them pan out but to say the kimbrel trade is obviously good for the Sox or this trade is obviously good as if they were facts is incorrect.

Fwiw I prefer the pomeranz trade, which I wouldn't have done but fully understand the reasons and price, to the kimbrel one.
 

benhogan

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I don't know who mentioned it (Ras maybe?), but holy shit, the Sox Prospects forum is an amazing read. Ran over when the board just went down for s bit and I'm only halfway through it, but it actually makes even the most reactionary posts here look tame. There was actually a suggestion to go stage a protest at Fenway. If the board hadn't come back here I probably would have created an account over there just for fun.
Surprisingly EV came off as the most level headed over there. He is one of the few that had positive things to say about Pomeranz.
 

OptimusPapi

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Mar 6, 2014
295
It should be pointed out, that given the low cost to aquire Chapman, if DD really wanted him he could have gotten him. What was Chapman going to do, sit out the season if he had to pitch the eighth? Chapman was not coming here no matter what. I personally agree that the number of domestic abusers should be kept to a minimum on the Sox.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Back on topic, speaking as someone who was very unhappy about the deal when it was announced, I've grown to be less unhappy.
Yeah, the more time I have to process it, the less I dislike it. It's going to take Pomeranz staying healthy and maintaining his current level of performance over the bulk of the rest of his contract for me to ever turn fully around and love that they made this deal, (a World Series victory with Pomeranz being a positive contributor, aside, of course) but weighing the risks on both sides and the context around each organization, this trade really does make a great deal of sense.

It's easy to argue it's an overpay in a vacuum, but these trades never happen in a vacuum. Value is relative and taking that into account, much like with the Kimbrel trade, makes it look a lot better for the Red Sox.
 

jasail

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The Sox have done a lot of trades for relievers and the hit ratio seems poor. I liked the Smith trade a lot more, although obviously that has been unfortunate. Young, cheap, good. Vs old, expensive and good.
I was not a huge fan of the Kimbrel trade, because similarly I do not value the proven closer at a premium. However, I have a hard time with this argument. Kimbrel has been one of the best relief pitchers in baseball since he arrived in the majors (.941 whip, 14.5k/9, 2.05 xfip), he is 28 years old and he will make an AAV of $12.625 through 2018 - age 31 (assuming team option is picked up). It's very difficult to call that old, expensive and good. It's more like career prime, slightly below market value and excellent. If you want to argue he's not work the acquisition cost plus the salary, that's fair. But let's not pretend he's something he's not to improve the argument.
 

nvalvo

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Well I don't know how to tell you this but San Diego probably liked the prospects that we traded them. If they hadn't done the kimbrel trade then maybe the players they liked in that trade would have been enough for pomeranz. That's it. I wasn't suggesting other pieces for this trade. Just joking that if they hadn't used the pieces on kimbrel they may have been able to use them for pomeranz.
There's another side of this. The success of the quartet of prospects post-Kimbrel trade (well, Guerra doesn't look great, but the others have done well) probably has people in the SD organization pretty high on the Sox player development organization.

I don't think people are taking seriously *why* prospects of this caliber change hands so infrequently. It's not just that they're valuable — teams send out tons of value all the time, in the form of $100s of millions of dollars in FA contracts. It's because they're both very valuable and it's hard to agree on exactly what that value should be, because the error bars on a player at this level is insane. We look at Espinoza and see a future front-end starter. Other people see a low-A eighteen year old with a good complement of pitches who has an easy delivery but has gotten uneven results. Sure, they've scouted him. We know that Espinoza could wash out, but that's much more at the forefront of the mind of someone about to deal a controllable SP who has thrown like an ace for a half-season.

(You know what's *valuable*? High-end pre-FA SP. That is being sold way short in our discussions here.)

I think people in SD right now, following Margot's and particularly Allen's success, are really buying into the hype about the Sox farm system.
 

LondonSox

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I was not a huge fan of the Kimbrel trade, because similarly I do not value the proven closer at a premium. However, I have a hard time with this argument. Kimbrel has been one of the best relief pitchers in baseball since he arrived in the majors (.941 whip, 14.5k/9, 2.05 xfip), he is 28 years old and he will make an AAV of $12.625 through 2018 - age 31 (assuming team option is picked up). It's very difficult to call that old, expensive and good. It's more like career prime, slightly below market value and excellent. If you want to argue he's not work the acquisition cost plus the salary, that's fair. But let's not pretend he's something he's not to improve the argument.
No that's totally fair. I just meant in comparison, he's older (thus getting more prone to injury), and expensive and yes to be fair good doesn't cut it, amazing. If there is one proven closer to go after its the one with the ridiculous peripherals etc. This is fair.
I still don't like paying a closer this much, let alone give up so much to pay him. I mean I prefer trading for the young cost controlled guy. But this is a bit of a tangent, and one we have been over before elsewhere.
 

kazuneko

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So I think the more important question isn't who "won" the trade but whether or not we agree or disagree with DD's decision to make it. I selected "Padres" as the team that won because it's the only selection that clearly indicates that I disagree with this move. To be clear, my disagreement is not because I can't fathom trading Espinoza for anyone but that I'm just not convinced that DP is anything special. I will say that if DP truly is anything close to what he's been in the first half of the season, and maybe even more importantly, if he ends up being durable enough to give the Sox anything close to 2.5 seasons of quality pitching (neither of which I see as likely scenarios), this will be a defensible trade - regardless of whether AE becomes a star. This is DD betting big on DP. I disagree with it because I don't think that Pomeranz has done enough to suggest that it is a wise bet.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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So I think the more important question isn't who "won" the trade but whether or not we agree or disagree with DD's decision to make it. I selected "Padres" as the team that won because it's the only selection that clearly indicates that I disagree with this move. To be clear, my disagreement is not because I can't fathom trading Espinoza for anyone but that I'm just not convinced that DP is anything special. I will say that if DP truly is anything close to what he's been in the first half of the season, and maybe even more importantly, if he ends up being durable enough to give the Sox anything close to 2.5 seasons of quality pitching (neither of which I see as likely scenarios), this will be a defensible trade - regardless of whether AE becomes a star. This is DD betting big on DP. I disagree with it because I don't think that Pomeranz has done enough to suggest that it is a wise bet.
Out of curiosity what makes you not convinced of DP?
 

LondonSox

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Out of curiosity what makes you not convinced of DP?
I have similar concerns so I'm happy to give it a try.
Number 1 is durability.
His total (minor plus major) IP per year
2011: 119
2012 146
2013: 112
2014: 115
2015: 88
2016: 102

If he pitches without getting hurt, even without the postseason, he's going to shatter his previous high, and with them you're talking a problem.

Related he's got little track record of being that great. He was pretty ok for 70 inning in in 2014, and not quite as good in 80+ in 2015.

His walk rate is still firmly above 3 per 9, his strikeout rate is good this year over 10 per 9, which is in line with some of his AAA stints. But this is really the main reason for an improvement, but it's from 100 IP and even then his walk rates is higher (3.6) than any of his other MLB stints.

In short. He's got durability concerns, command concerns, track record concerns (in that he's only been very good for very long before) and finally his improvement is at least partly credited to his new cutter. The cutter is thought to be hard of arms and increase the risk of injury. Don't know I buy it but it's a well known theory.

The one that bothers me most is the innings. He's being acquired to help take this team to compete for a championship, but that is a huge jump in innings for him to do this. Huge.
The second one is, we have a very limited track record of him being any good. Being good and durable is a big leap of faith.
Clearly scouting of him this year is more important than the stats, especially if he's changed his repertoire, but I think there are plenty of reasons for concern.
 

Drek717

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And then, I'd been holding out hope for an off-season trade for Sale or Fernandez -- but it's possible that DD believes that neither the White Sox nor the Marlins are going to make that move. Maybe there is no "three prospects for Pedro" young ace trade to be made. And if that's also the case -- if Pomeranz is the best pitcher who's going to get traded between now and next April -- then overpaying for him starts to look not just defensible, but necessary.
People need to give up on these established ace on affordable/pre-FA contract dreams. Theo Epstein spent most of his tenure in Boston chasing Felix Hernandez. The Sox have been chasing Chris Sale for a few years now. Never did they ever get serious traction. Hell, supposedly Epstein basically offered Seattle free pick from the entire farm for Hernandez and still got rejected.

Teams simply do not trade cost controlled, in their prime, proven aces anymore. The Pedro deal came about because Pedro was entering his final season of team control and Montreal lacked the ability to pay him a contract commensurate with what the FA market was about to offer. They were facing a move him or lose him scenario. Now with the size of the shared revenue pot, the various luxury tax wealth redistribution systems, the size of the national TV deal payouts for each team, and the runaway success of MLB.TV and the spun off subsidiary that handles everything from NHL streaming to HBO Now there isn't a club in baseball who can't afford to lock down their ace if they're so inclined. Which they are, unanimously.

You can't trade for cost controlled aces anymore. The only ways to acquire an ace are:
1. Pay them market rate for what is likely the back half of their career, like the Sox have done with Price.

2. Develop them from your farm system, ground up, the very reason we were all so high on Espinoza. The boom/bust potential of an 18 year old pitcher doesn't earn the value we all held for Espinoza. That value was born out of scarcity of peak pay out, not the likelihood of any real ML payout at all.

3. Acquire them just as they're breaking out/about to break out. We all were thinking this might have happened last season with EdRo prior to his injury. Theo pulled such a move when he acquired Arrieta and finished off the development needed for him to explode into what he is now. Dombrowski pulled this off several years ago when he traded for Max Scherzer. He is hoping to have done so now acquiring Pomeranz just as he's having a very strong first half with the new cutter.

I think people in SD right now, following Margot's and particularly Allen's success, are really buying into the hype about the Sox farm system.
The success of the traded prospects needs to be looked at with some perspective. Margot is posting a .760 OPS in the PCL with a .320 BABIP. The most offensively juiced circuit in pro ball with moderately high BABIP luck and he's doing OK. Not great, OK. And he still gets caught stealing at basically the fringe for viability (24 SBs, 8 CS, most metrics I've seen reference a 3/4ths success rate as the starting point to add value). That's against AAA catchers, so likely higher than he can post in the majors.

Margot will probably be a solid every day CF but his ceiling isn't Andrew McCutcheon. More like Dexter Fowler, Mark Kotsay, or Coco Crisp with a floor of a non-25 man roster guy if he takes much of a step back in his ability to hit ML pitching. Not a guy you play over Betts, Bradley, or Benintendi.

Asuaje is one of those super utility types the Sox have had so much recent success turning out (Holt, Marco Hernandez for two others). But Asuaje is also benefiting greatly form hitting in the PCL with a .365 BABIP. He ran high BABIPs in the low minors but crashed back down to earth in a full season of AA ball last year. Again, his numbers deserve skepticism and in no way indicate that he's going to be more than what he's always projected as, a utility infielder which the Sox are absolutely stocked on already.

Allen is a nice young arm to be sure, but it's not like he's throwing a sub 2 ERA in high A or K's 12 per 9 or something. He was a lottery ticket and if he turns into anything it'll likely be in large part to how he's developed with the Padres.

Good pieces, but not a stud in the bunch. The best chance for that was Guerra, who is already crashing to earth. Being half a season of ball into such a trade and already looking to have sold high on a major part of the package is a good sign for Dombrowski making the right assessments last winter.

The one that bothers me most is the innings. He's being acquired to help take this team to compete for a championship, but that is a huge jump in innings for him to do this. Huge.
The second one is, we have a very limited track record of him being any good. Being good and durable is a big leap of faith.
Clearly scouting of him this year is more important than the stats, especially if he's changed his repertoire, but I think there are plenty of reasons for concern.
Is there really any hard evidence to substantiate that concern though?

There has been real analysis to show that a gradual ramp-up of innings through the late teens and early 20's is the best approach, but Pomeranz is 27 years old. He's a full grown man with five years of ML level conditioning and development under his belt. Not a ton of players make the move from reliever to starter but the anecdotal examples aren't full of horror stories that I can find. Derek Lowe, Ryan Dempster, and Kenny Rogers have been mentioned in this thread but others who saw similar mid-20's spikes in their innings pitched were Johan Santana, CJ Wilson, and David Wells. All saw jumps from the mid to high double digits one season to nearly 200 IP the next and pitched successfully to high innings counts for several years afterwards.

Even Chris Sale has done this, but at a far younger age, when at 22 he threw 71 innings of relief and then at 23 threw 192 innings as a starter. That was probably too young to ramp up a guy's IPs like that but he's done just fine.

Monitoring IPs as part of player development makes sense, but once a guy is in his mid 20's and on an ML roster he's facing an equally substantial workload. They require different skills to be sure, which is why some guys are great relievers but horrible starters, or vice versa, but if it was simply a matter of innings pitched wouldn't teams have relievers throwing 150-200 IPs a year as opposed to something below half of that total? The guys who have all the best info on this (ML front offices) have repeatedly moved mid-20's relievers to starting roles and basically let them eat all the innings they could pitch themselves into. Almost no one brings up 20 year olds and let them throw 200+ innings anymore however. They've learned something but it isn't simply that dramatic upticks in IPs = bad.
 
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phenweigh

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...
Number 1 is durability.
His total (minor plus major) IP per year
2011: 119
2012 146
2013: 112
2014: 115
2015: 88
2016: 102

If he pitches without getting hurt, even without the postseason, he's going to shatter his previous high, and with them you're talking a problem.

Related he's got little track record of being that great. He was pretty ok for 70 inning in in 2014, and not quite as good in 80+ in 2015.

His walk rate is still firmly above 3 per 9, his strikeout rate is good this year over 10 per 9, which is in line with some of his AAA stints. But this is really the main reason for an improvement, but it's from 100 IP and even then his walk rates is higher (3.6) than any of his other MLB stints.

In short. He's got durability concerns, command concerns, track record concerns (in that he's only been very good for very long before) and finally his improvement is at least partly credited to his new cutter. The cutter is thought to be hard of arms and increase the risk of injury. Don't know I buy it but it's a well known theory.

The one that bothers me most is the innings. He's being acquired to help take this team to compete for a championship, but that is a huge jump in innings for him to do this. Huge.
The second one is, we have a very limited track record of him being any good. Being good and durable is a big leap of faith.
Clearly scouting of him this year is more important than the stats, especially if he's changed his repertoire, but I think there are plenty of reasons for concern.
...
There has been real analysis to show that a gradual ramp-up of innings through the late teens and early 20's is the best approach, but Pomeranz is 27 years old. He's a full grown man with five years of ML level conditioning and development under his belt. Not a ton of players make the move from reliever to starter but the anecdotal examples aren't full of horror stories that I can find. Derek Lowe, Ryan Dempster, and Kenny Rogers have been mentioned in this thread but others who saw similar mid-20's spikes in their innings pitched were Johan Santana, CJ Wilson, and David Wells. All saw jumps from the mid to high double digits one season to nearly 200 IP the next and pitched successfully to high innings counts for several years afterwards.

Even Chris Sale has done this, but at a far younger age, when at 22 he threw 71 innings of relief and then at 23 threw 192 innings as a starter. That was probably too young to ramp up a guy's IPs like that but he's done just fine.

Monitoring IPs as part of player development makes sense, but once a guy is in his mid 20's and on an ML roster he's facing an equally substantial workload. They require different skills to be sure, which is why some guys are great relievers but horrible starters, or vice versa, but if it was simply a matter of innings pitched wouldn't teams have relievers throwing 150-200 IPs a year as opposed to something below half of that total? The guys who have all the best info on this (ML front offices) have repeatedly moved mid-20's relievers to starting roles and basically let them eat all the innings they could pitch themselves into. Almost no one brings up 20 year olds and let them throw 200+ innings anymore however. They've learned something but it isn't simply that dramatic upticks in IPs = bad.
Fair point. It was a slightly different time when pitch/inning counts weren't quite the end-all they are now, but look at Derek Lowe in 2002. He went from about 290 innings (110, 91, 91) spread over three years as a reliever to about 220 innings in his first year as a starter. He was only a couple years older than Pomeranz is now.

It's something to keep an eye on, but it also seems a reasonable calculated risk to take with a mature player just entering his prime years.
LondonSox ... regarding the innings concern, I initially shared that concern, but Drek's response and some of the posts in the other trade thread (like the RHF post quoted) eased my concerns a great deal.

Regarding the track record concerns, I agree that they are legitimate, but if he had a track record of being as good as he has been so far this season, wouldn't he be regarded as one of the top pitchers in MLB? I think so. Then the price to obtain him via trade would have been much greater than "only" Espinosa, if he was even available.

I think that's why win-win is leading the poll.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If he pitches without getting hurt, even without the postseason, he's going to shatter his previous high, and with them you're talking a problem.

Related he's got little track record of being that great. He was pretty ok for 70 inning in in 2014, and not quite as good in 80+ in 2015.
He was pretty much the same pitcher in 2015, just with worse luck. And while he does issue more walks than one would like, he also doesn't allow HRs and if you ignore his playing time in Colorado (and Colorado Springs), he actually has a very long history of beating babip significantly, including his time in the minors. His results remind me a lot of minor league Henry Owens except his stuff plays up in the majors. Strike out a lot, walk a lot, avoid hits and be lefty. Also, tall lefties take awhile to figure things out iirc, but that may be a Randy Johnson myth.

2014 3.77 Fip 3.65 xfip
2015 3.62 Fip 3.89 xfip
2016 3.15 Fip 3.62 xfip.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
It's interesting to see the steady improvement there in the relationship between his FIP and xFIP, which seems to be fueled largely by a steadily declining HR/FB--this is particularly weird since Petco these days is a much better HR park than whatever they're currently calling that monstrosity in Oakland.

Interestingly, his SIERA has been essentially the same over the past three years: 3.62, 3.73, 3.72. Well above average, but not elite. He's 37th out of 133 pitchers with 200+ IP over the past three years in that stat, in the same neighborhood as Garrett Richards, Collin McHugh, Kyle Hendricks, and Jordan Zimmermann, and only 0.04 worse than Jose Quintana.
 

Drek717

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LondonSox ... regarding the innings concern, I initially shared that concern, but Drek's response and some of the posts in the other trade thread (like the RHF post quoted) eased my concerns a great deal.

Regarding the track record concerns, I agree that they are legitimate, but if he had a track record of being as good as he has been so far this season, wouldn't he be regarded as one of the top pitchers in MLB? I think so. Then the price to obtain him via trade would have been much greater than "only" Espinosa, if he was even available.

I think that's why win-win is leading the poll.
Yes, someone who pitches like Pomeranz is right now for more than one year and with two years of arb. control left doesn't get traded for even one elite prospect. No one thinks we'd get Sale for just Espinoza, right? Or anything short of one form Moncada/Benintendi, one from Espinoza/Devers, and at least one other top 15 prospect. Hell, Quintana and Carrasco probably cost you two of Espinoza, Devers, Benintendi, and Moncada, or one of them and another two from the top 15.

Quality ML pitching is FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Pomeranz has risk but if he didn't he'd have cost a hell of a lot more. Dombrowski is taking the risk because we need the reward now, while we're featuring an elite offense, a knuckle baller throwing out of his mind, and were already able to shore up the club's depth with a solid IF (Hill) and reliever (Ziegler) for relatively cheap.

I actually like that the deal was just Espinoza. The Sox farm has lost a lot of depth since last season ended, worthwhile cost for the ML club to be sure, but getting Pomeranz for Espinoza alone is more appealing to me than getting someone a bit more proven but having to throw in a few more prospects like Chavis, Kopech, Ockimey, etc..
 

Wake's knuckle

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At this point, Espinoza is still very much a lottery ticket. He MIGHT be the next Pedro. But he probably isn't. TINSTAAPP, people. Seriously, what's the probability that he never throws a pitch in the majors, even? So many things can go wrong. And this is Papi's last year and the division title is easily in reach. I hate giving him up... but this is time for it if there ever was.
 

grimshaw

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At this point, Espinoza is still very much a lottery ticket. He MIGHT be the next Pedro. But he probably isn't. TINSTAAPP, people. Seriously, what's the probability that he never throws a pitch in the majors, even? So many things can go wrong. And this is Papi's last year and the division title is easily in reach. I hate giving him up... but this is time for it if there ever was.
Objectively speaking, this is completely irrelevant to how the Red Sox front office is looking at the deadline.
 

simplicio

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Objectively speaking, this is completely irrelevant to how the Red Sox front office is looking at the deadline.
See, from a numbers perspective you're probably right, but then I start thinking about how many of those last three championships we'd still have won without Papi being freaking magical in the post season.
 

Plympton91

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If you are down on this trade, you really need to take a look at the book, "Superforecasters". The fundamental insight of that book is that you always start off a forecast with the "base rate". In this case the "base rate" is that list of pitchers who were teenagers ranked in BA's top 25 prospects.

When you break it down, you get that Espinoza has about a 25 percent chance of becoming an all star, a 59 percent chance of being a useful major league pitcher, and a 25 percent chance of never making an impact in the majors. Maybe there's a reason to tweak those up or down, but it's unreasonable to do much more. He could as rasily be Daniel Hudson as Tim Hudson.

Then you need to apply the same process to Pomeranz. People opposed to the trade keep referencing him as a 4th starter. This projection also is completely out of step with Superforecasting principles. Pomeranz is an All Star pitcher this year. That means he's been a #1. The past two years he was an excellent reliever, showing a successful conversion to a starter . Think Derek Lowe and CJ Wilson, even Chis Sale is in that group. He was also the #5 overall pick in the draft. That raises his baseline projection too. All of that forms his baseline, and it is not one that puts the highest probability on him pitching like a #4 going forward. You need to look up the rate at which 27 year old all star pitchers stay all star caliber pitchers. I'm betting that would make the highest probability outcome in a sound forecast be that he's more likely to make another all star team than Anderson. Espinoza is to ever make his first.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Quality ML pitching is FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Pomeranz has risk but if he didn't he'd have cost a hell of a lot more. Dombrowski is taking the risk because we need the reward now, while we're featuring an elite offense, a knuckle baller throwing out of his mind, and were already able to shore up the club's depth with a solid IF (Hill) and reliever (Ziegler) for relatively cheap.
Yeah, I think there is some sticker shock going on with regards to quality ML pitching. People when apoplectic when Porcello got his 4/$80M deal and (as his new thread points out) now we understand that it's probably market rate (and if Porcello finishes the year the way he's gone over the last 31 games, he'll be of some excess value to the Red Sox even with his crappy first year.)

Fangraphs has a new article out that discusses a prospect valuation model developed by Kevin Creagh and Steve DiMiceli. For pitches ranked between #11 and #25 (there were 43 of them), the average WAR was 8.3, 44% had less than 3 WAR; and 28% had 0 WAR or less.

The author points out that many of this tier of prospects are closer to the majors so it's possible to discount Espinoza's value as being farther in the future; however, you could also say that the value of WAR is going up dramatically each year so maybe that's a wash. And if you consider that Espinoza has #1 potential, maybe you give it a premium too.

However, any way you slice it, this is the article's conclusion, which seems very rational to me:

"The free agent market has already shown it will value high-risk, average-to-above-average starters; Scott Kazmir got $48 million and an opt-out last winter, Brandon McCarthy got $48 million and Francisco Liriano got $39 million the year before. Pomeranz has put himself in that class of pitchers, and pretty clearly has a good amount of value above and beyond what the Red Sox will have to pay him over the next couple of years. Pomeranz will make a fraction of that over the next few years, and since he’s going to get his salaries through arbitration, the Red Sox will be taking on less risk, since the money won’t be guaranteed.

In terms of overall value, Creagh and DiMiceli put Espinoza in a bucket of prospects worth about $40 million; accounting for his distance to the majors, I’d probably push that down to $30-$35 million [NOTE: I'd probably push that up because, as mentioned above, top of the line starters are really hard to acquire these days, but that's just me]; Yadier Alvarez, who Eric Longenhagen put a similar 60 Future Value grade on, signed for $16 million last July, and with the 100% tax they paid, he cost them $32 million.

Given what Pomeranz would be probably worth on the open market right now, he probably has at least $30 million in surplus value; if he were a free agent this minute, and could sell his remaining 2.5 years of service, I’d guess he’d land something close to $50 million, and that’s in guaranteed money; the Red Sox get additional value from having non-guaranteed arbitration years."

Two other points that increases the value to the Red Sox. First, the Red Sox aren't getting replacement level value from the pitcher Pomeranz replaces, so whatever positive value DP can generate is worth more to the Red Sox than some other clubs. Second, if the Red Sox can buy out one or two free agent years, that will be additional value (assuming DP continues to generate positive value).
 

Idabomb333

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Two other points that increases the value to the Red Sox. First, the Red Sox aren't getting replacement level value from the pitcher Pomeranz replaces, so whatever positive value DP can generate is worth more to the Red Sox than some other clubs. Second, if the Red Sox can buy out one or two free agent years, that will be additional value (assuming DP continues to generate positive value).
This point has been made a few times, and it's a reasonable one, but I think you're misapplying it here. Replacing bad players from the first half of 16 is an important distinction for describing how much better the Sox are after the trade, but not for how valuable DP is, I think. For that to be right, you'd have to make the case that without DP, the Sox would have kept their dregs in the rotation or at least that whoever would have been in the rotation would have been equally bad. That doesn't seem likely. More likely, they would have at least picked up someone we could expect to be replacement level. Granted they probably would have had to give up something for a replacement-level guy, but it would have been negligible cost almost by definition.
 

djhb20

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Well, AE probably could've done that. I imagine soxprospects will be completely losing it now.
 

mt8thsw9th

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He certainly slots well into Buchholz' spot in the rotation. Being lefty definitely gives them a different look at the meatballs.
 

j44thor

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I'm chalking up tonight to nerves. He has never pitched on a good team in his MLB career. Pitching in front of a packed Fenway crowd is quite different from a Padres crowd. Having said that it appears he needs his CB to set up the rest of his pitches which all seem to fall in the ordinary spectrum without the fear of the CB. Let's hope his next start he has that CB.
 

Lowrielicious

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On the nose

Jason Mastrodonato ‏@JMastrodonato 3m3 minutes ago
Drew Pomeranz: "I just felt a little off ... I’m not used to having those long-run innings. This team is amazing."
Nice. Hopefully he can take it as a learning experience and get some confidence confidence to bear down even if he doesn't have his best stuff or has some shitty luck to just keep this offense in the game long enough for the comeback.
 

Sampo Gida

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He hasn't pitched in almost 2 weeks and as pointed out was facing a team he has now faced 4 times already, and a pretty good team at that. New team, new Catcher. I liked what I saw the first 3 innings and then bam. Kid probably never had a 8 run lead before, might have let up too much which can get away from you quick in Fenway.
 

djhb20

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Well, AE probably could've done that. I imagine soxprospects will be completely losing it now.
Apparently, Espinosa did the same (knocked out after 3) in his first start today, but that was in A ball, so the Sox definitely won the trade.
 

grimshaw

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My view of tonight is that Pomeranz seeing the Giants four times in three months might be one too many.
Sitting on the bench for thirty minutes didn't help much either.
These were my exact thoughts. Along with the fact that the Giants are a really good baseball team. Hopefully he misses the Dodgers, but gets his old, terrible team.
Getting the Twins would have been nice to get him moving in the right direction but that's how it goes.