Poll: AB or not AB that is the question

Should the Pats cut AB?

  • Yes

    Votes: 48 21.9%
  • No

    Votes: 136 62.1%
  • IDK-the quality of mercy is not what it used to be

    Votes: 27 12.3%
  • other -expand in thread

    Votes: 8 3.7%

  • Total voters
    219

bankshot1

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AB or not AB that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The swings and misses ot outrageous PR and hot takes
but in the absence of hard evidence
play the guy sunday
Or to succumb to the sea of troubles
And by opposing him, to cut him and to sleep less conflicted,


I should be bard for this but, we should get the local temperature.

From your own perspective, moral, football, legal, or whatever perspective you chose to rely upon, should the Pats end the AB relationship ASAP, or should AB suit up and take the stage as a Patriot?

I feel uncomfortable with the guy and would prefer he wasn't a Pat.

YMMV and I suspect it does.
 

ZMart100

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No. We have a legal system to sort this stuff out. We have a football league for football. Each should do their job.
 

bluefenderstrat

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I voted no but it's half-hearted. I do know that Antonio Brown doesn't have the power to sink this team--if they reach the point of no return, they'll cut him and move on.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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What are the cap ramifications if we dump him now? If he gets put on the commissioner's list the Pats have no roster flexibility, and I have no reason to believe that half of the owners in the NFL aren't up Goodell's ass to fuck the Patriots over by any means necessary.

So although it's unfair in terms of due process, I'd cut him ASAP (provided it saves us the cap hit). If I'm wrong about Goodell (and I feel silly typing those words), then I would keep him.
 
Jan 30, 2017
47
I voted no as well, but with a wait and see sentiment. It could easily turn into a yes as we learn more. I agree with many of the thoughtful posts basically stating the nature of a civil suit, the precedent an accusation landing a player on the exempt list or being blackballed, etc. AB's past behavior and erractic actions, whether contrived or not, are certainly coming back to bite him in the ass.

Tl;dr - Let's keep moving and see what comes out in the wash.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I would not cut him based solely on what we currently know, but could revise that opinion if and when new information comes to light.

I will still have a lot of trouble rooting for him in the meantime.
 

lexrageorge

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What are the cap ramifications if we dump him now? If he gets put on the commissioner's list the Pats have no roster flexibility, and I have no reason to believe that half of the owners in the NFL aren't up Goodell's ass to fuck the Patriots over by any means necessary.

So although it's unfair in terms of due process, I'd cut him ASAP (provided it saves us the cap hit). If I'm wrong about Goodell (and I feel silly typing those words), then I would keep him.
Brown signed a 2 year deal with a $9M signing bonus and a $1M guarantee salary for 2019. If they cut him today, there would be no cap charge or relief in 2019, and the team would incur a $4.5M dead cap charge for the remainder of the signing bonus in 2020. However, this is not new, as Brown's contract calls for a $20M salary if he's on the roster at the start of 2020, and there was little chance he would see that anyway.

They would get 2020 relief on the NLTBE incentives, as they would not be earned.

If he goes on the exempt list, nothing changes.

I vote no, with the right to change it if more information comes out in the coming days or weeks.
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
Wow, you're really going for the daily-double, mangling Shakespeare here from two different plays! I don't think anyone is in Shylock's situation, nor Antonio's, nor Portia's. Nor Hamlet's for that matter. This is more of a Measure for Measure type-deal.

All I'll add is that Belichick's presser today was really weird, even by his standards.

Edit: spelling
 
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OurF'ingCity

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Apr 22, 2016
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I would not cut him based solely on what we currently know, but could revise that opinion if and when new information comes to light.

I will still have a lot of trouble rooting for him in the meantime.
Yeah, not to beat a dead horse but this is where I am too. I think there are two main ways this could turn from "tentatively think they should keep him" to "think they should cut him": one, this story evolves and the facts increasingly look damning to AB (additional accusers emerge, criminal charges are filed, etc.), or two, this becomes one of a host of issues with AB (late for practices, throws teammates under the bus, other non-football issues that arise that become distractions, etc.) that collectively make it clear he's overall a detriment to the team.

And, yeah, I'll still be rooting for him to do as well on the football field as possible, but probably won't be jumping up and down every time he scores or running out to buy a Brown jersey.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I honestly don't know. It's going to be pretty hard for me to root for him at this point either way and if this happened when he was still on the Raiders I would not have wanted the Pats to sign him. Let him be someone else's problem, we don't need him. Given that, I am leaning more towards cut him but for now I'll listen with an open mind to see if he's really being extorted.
 

DrewDawg

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Dec 16, 2010
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If BB doesn't think he's a distraction, then I'm fine with it. I'm under no illusions about a lot of the professional athletes we root for, the actors we watch, or the politicians we vote for.

That's obviously based on the what we know now.
 

Kliq

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My enthusiasm for Brown has been tapered a little bit because of these allegations, but at the same time I think it would be inappropriate to just cut him right now because of it. #BelieveAllWomen does not just mean that any accusation that is made should be considered 100 accurate and truthful, and punishment for the offender should be swift and just. It means that claims made by women should be treated seriously and thoroughly investigated by the proper judicial authorities. Until that process is completed, Brown shouldn't be dismissed as a sexual assailant who does not deserve employment in the NFL.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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If things go downhill from here, sure, drop him and keep winning anyway. Selfishly, I do want to see a near-GOAT receiver catching passes from the GOAT QB. The civil vs. criminal thing is weird to me at first glance and the details to this point paint a fuzzy picture, so let's see what happens.
 

mauf

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I honestly don't know. It's going to be pretty hard for me to root for him at this point either way and if this happened when he was still on the Raiders I would not have wanted the Pats to sign him. Let him be someone else's problem, we don't need him. Given that, I am leaning more towards cut him but for now I'll listen with an open mind to see if he's really being extorted.
This is where I’m at as well. Now that the extortion accusations have been made by his agent, and not just some Internet rando, AB needs to put up or shut up. I’ll wait a few days to see what emerges, but my patience is very limited.
 

Bergs

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Brown signed a 2 year deal with a $9M signing bonus and a $1M guarantee salary for 2019. If they cut him today, there would be no cap charge or relief in 2019, and the team would incur a $4.5M dead cap charge for the remainder of the signing bonus in 2020. However, this is not new, as Brown's contract calls for a $20M salary if he's on the roster at the start of 2020, and there was little chance he would see that anyway.

They would get 2020 relief on the NLTBE incentives, as they would not be earned.

If he goes on the exempt list, nothing changes.

I vote no, with the right to change it if more information comes out in the coming days or weeks.
Thanks for the knowlege. Then I'm on the "keep him for now" bandwagon, as well as the "probably not gonna enjoy rooting for him" one.
 

jose melendez

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My enthusiasm for Brown has been tapered a little bit because of these allegations, but at the same time I think it would be inappropriate to just cut him right now because of it. #BelieveAllWomen does not just mean that any accusation that is made should be considered 100 accurate and truthful, and punishment for the offender should be swift and just. It means that claims made by women should be treated seriously and thoroughly investigated by the proper judicial authorities. Until that process is completed, Brown shouldn't be dismissed as a sexual assailant who does not deserve employment in the NFL.
Friendly reminder that it's #beleivewomen. Believeallwomen is something the right made up to make the left's position seem preposterous. I got suckered, and I learned.
 

EdRalphRomero

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I voted cut him, but that is my selfish position. I can tell this is going to take joy away from rooting for the team.

From a more considered perspective, I agree that the process should play out. The victim should be given a presumption of credibility at the same time that AB should be treated with the presumption of innocence.
 

Kliq

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Friendly reminder that it's #beleivewomen. Believeallwomen is something the right made up to make the left's position seem preposterous. I got suckered, and I learned.
You know Jose, the journalist in me died a little bit when I started a sentence with a hashtag, so I deserve that mistake. #NeverAgain.
 

Oil Can Dan

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I like rooting for players/people that I like. I'm an Eagles fan, and when they had Vick at QB it tempered my enthusiasm. I believe in serving your time, second chances, etc etc, but I still didn't enjoy watching him on Sundays. Was I happy when he did good stuff? Sure. But I much prefer rooting for a guy like Wentz.
 

LoweTek

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Do we know the Patriots do not have language impacting the signing bonus exactly to address this possibility? You would think under the circumstances they would have done something to cover their ass and not just throw $4.5 or $9m or whatever it will cost them if he's cut or put on the Commissioner's List or otherwise tossed out on Route 1 by BB.

They knew they were signing a loudmouth time bomb. I'd hate to think they did it without some kind of risk management.
 

cornwalls@6

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I voted yes. I don’t know enough yet to say whether I think he is guilty or not. But all the extra toxic junk this guy now brings with him, to me, makes his talent not worth the trouble. This team is, I think, loaded without him. And like others, I was on the fence about wanting to root for him based on his antics in Pittsburgh and Oakland. These allegations make it damn near impossible. And as noted above, at the end of the day, this is just entertainment for most us. They’re going to be less entertaining with him on the field for me.
 

ShaneTrot

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I just don't like how the guy has handled his business and I don't want to root for him. He is incredibly self-absorbed in the ultimate team sport. Plus with all the legal BS on top of it, I won't be able to enjoy AB being on the team.
 

mwonow

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My enthusiasm for Brown has been tapered a little bit because of these allegations, but at the same time I think it would be inappropriate to just cut him right now because of it. #BelieveAllWomen does not just mean that any accusation that is made should be considered 100 accurate and truthful, and punishment for the offender should be swift and just. It means that claims made by women should be treated seriously and thoroughly investigated by the proper judicial authorities. Until that process is completed, Brown shouldn't be dismissed as a sexual assailant who does not deserve employment in the NFL.
I voted cut him, but that is my selfish position. I can tell this is going to take joy away from rooting for the team.

From a more considered perspective, I agree that the process should play out. The victim should be given a presumption of credibility at the same time that AB should be treated with the presumption of innocence.
No vote yet, I'm aligned with both of these positions.

I don't think AB should be cut without letting the process play out, that seems unfair.

At the same time, I can't believe how little I'm enjoying BBtL now. THe Pats destroyed Pitt, to the extent that 19-0 didn't even require that much squinting, and now I can hardly read what's being posted here.

Bah.
 

lexrageorge

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Do we know the Patriots do not have language impacting the signing bonus exactly to address this possibility? You would think under the circumstances they would have done something to cover their ass and not just throw $4.5 or $9m or whatever it will cost them if he's cut or put on the Commissioner's List or otherwise tossed out on Route 1 by BB.

They knew they were signing a loudmouth time bomb. I'd hate to think they did it without some kind of risk management.
There are standard player contracts, and additional behavior clauses have to pass muster with the NFLPA and league. Doubtful there would be anything that would cover civil litigation which hasn't even gone to trial. Breer seems to think there is, but it's clear that he's no lawyer.

The Pats used the standard "moral turpitude" clause when they cut ties with Aaron Hernandez. But that situation is not at all analogous. And it still didn't stop the NFLPA from fighting to get future roster bonus paid to Hernandez. And the team was unable to recoup the bonus that had already been paid.
 

bankshot1

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Wow, you're really going for the daily-double, mangling Shakespeare here from two different plays! I don't think anyone is in Shylock's situation, nor Antonio's, nor Protia's. Nor Hamlet's for that matter. This is more of a Measure for Measure type-deal.

All I'll add is that Belichick's presser today was really weird, even by his standards.
Mangling two plays? Thats a good day for me. But speaking of that, seeing today's 911, I would have gone with Porsche. :)
 

RGREELEY33

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I have no problem with eventually cutting him, but setting the precedent of cutting a player based on a civil suit without any real due diligence being done by the team/league is crazy to me.

If that is the case, I'm filing a civil suit against Patrick Mahomes tomorrow. . . . .
 

Tyrone Biggums

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100% cut him. The longer they keep him the more damage he does to the team image.
 

djbayko

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That ship sailed a long time ago. Like it or not, there's a New England image of the team and an outsiders image of the team. Neither is going to change much outside of the margins unless demonstrable evidence of his guilt materializes and they still don't cut him.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Team image?

Who gives a shit? Seriously. The team image outside of New England isn’t exactly pristine. He’s not doing anything that hasn’t already been done to the image.

Do people look at KC differently because of Hill? Pittsburg because of Ben?
I agree with your overall point that generally speaking the national image the Pats have is garbage. But (a) it is largely based on people being willfully ignorant on the facts related to spygate and deflategate and this is much different, and (b) I sure as shit feel differently about anyone who roots for Roethlisberger or Hill. I don’t expect people to give up their fandom, I’m not going to stop rooting for the Pats, but I’ll feel pretty lousy rooting for Brown absent something clearly coming up that proves this is all bullshit.
 

DonBuddinE6

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Jul 25, 2005
129
I voted Yes after reading the texts he (allegedly) sent.

Until I'd read the texts, I'd have voted No, figuring it was more of a he-said-she-said, plus a money grab. Well I still think it's a money-grab, but the text messages included in the lawsuit are more than just a little bit disgusting. Antonio Brown is just nor a person I want to cheer for, ever.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Feb 22, 2004
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Aaron Hernandez. Spygate. Deflategate. Orchids of Day spa. You’re a naive fan if you think the ‘Patriot Way’ is some kind of beacon of morality.
No fan of this blood sport can’t ever claim moral/ethical high ground. Every team is dirty and every fan’s high horse is BS.

I agree with those who say whatever the Pats do is irrelevant in terms of league and national fan perception—people made up their minds years ago.
 
Sep 1, 2019
15
There have been a lot of sports stars (and other celebrities) that were really bad people. It's hardly an original observation, but as fans we root for the laundry and what it represents to us. It doesn't mean that you need to check your morality at the gate, and each individual has to make their own decision. From my perspective, although this is not a court of law, I think AB should be afforded the presumption of innocence in the face of these accusations. For BB, I think it really is a simple calculus of whether AB's presence is an overall benefit to the football team or not. As soon as it is not, AB will be gone. That threshold has not yet been reached.

*edit--what CL just said....
 

shepard50

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I voted Yes after reading the texts he (allegedly) sent.

Until I'd read the texts, I'd have voted No, figuring it was more of a he-said-she-said, plus a money grab. Well I still think it's a money-grab, but the text messages included in the lawsuit are more than just a little bit disgusting. Antonio Brown is just nor a person I want to cheer for, ever.
100%

The texts show Brown to be a complete woman hating asshole who, at best, admits sexually assaulting her (IANAL, but he says he "jacked on her back" as a taunt... and he can DIAF.
 

bankshot1

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IMO, and I'll probably be mocked for this, is the Pats are too good to adopt a "win at all costs" attitude. I accepted his forcing his way out of Oakland, and thought the Pats smart and opportunistic to sign him, But in light of the new charges, my internal moral scale tipped the other way. I understand the presumption of innocence and due process, but this guy is bad news and probably is more bad news waiting to happen. The Pats can afford to do the right thing and cut ties with a bad guy.
 

ObstructedView

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I voted cut him, but that is my selfish position. I can tell this is going to take joy away from rooting for the team.

From a more considered perspective, I agree that the process should play out. The victim should be given a presumption of credibility at the same time that AB should be treated with the presumption of innocence.
This is where I'm at. I'm not presuming guilt, and agree that the process should play out as prescribed by our laws -- but that doesn't mean he's entitled to be employed by the Pats. There's an undeniable pattern of both erratic and abusive behavior, and I don't want my team associated with it. I know these guys aren't saints and that I shouldn't hold them to role-model standards, but I want to be able to watch football with my three adolescent boys without having to squirm and try to explain this stuff every time it comes up. Of course we as Pats fans have the luxury of knowing that our team will compete for a championship regardless, but I'd like to think that I'd have the same attitude if I were rooting for the Dolphins.
 

DrewDawg

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100%

The texts show Brown to be a complete woman hating asshole who, at best, admits sexually assaulting her (IANAL, but he says he "jacked on her back" as a taunt... and he can DIAF.
There was poster earlier that said he read those texts not as AB admitting it, but he was mocking her for saying he did that.
 

djbayko

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100%

The texts show Brown to be a complete woman hating asshole who, at best, admits sexually assaulting her (IANAL, but he says he "jacked on her back" as a taunt... and he can DIAF.
It's in the other thread, and I don't have time to do the explanation justice here, but someone offered a completely different reading of the text, and after further review, I tend to agree it's more likely. He's not admitting to jacking off on her, even consensually. He's mocking her attempt at making up that story. Now, if that reading is correct, that doesn't mean he's innocent of the charge - only that he wasn't stupid enough to admit to it in writing. But yeah, it's very difficult to parse meaning in those texts since the grammar is so bad as to be almost foreign.
 
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Joe D Reid

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I voted to cut him, because I share ERR's viewpoint of just not wanting to root for the guy. I'm sensitive to the procedural concerns, but as others have also pointed out he's getting the 9M either way. The loss of professional opportnunity is less important, as he already showed in Oakland that he was willing to sit out the season. If he's willing to sit out because of a perceived violation of his personal principles, I'm more than willing to root for him to sit out due to a perceived violation of my personal principles.
 
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TrotWaddles

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I voted no because I think the Pats have been down this road before. AB has denied the allegations. I really don’t want the Pats defending scumbags but until AB is shown to be a scumbag in court, this is a civil matter and he’s entitled to his hearing.
 

Reverend

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There was poster earlier that said he read those texts not as AB admitting it, but he was mocking her for saying he did that.
It's in the other thread, and I don't have time to do the explanation justice here, but someone offered a completely different reading of the text, and after further review, I tend to agree it's more likely. He's not admitting to even jacking off on her, even consensually. He's mocking her attempt at making up that story. Now, if that reading is correct, that doesn't mean he's innocent of the charge - only that he wasn't stupid enough to admit to it in writing. But yeah, it's very difficult to parse meaning in those texts since the grammar is so bad to be almost foreign.
It was @Morgan's Magic Snowplow .

FWIW, I read them the same way as he did. Maybe it comes from a background of trying to decipher undergraduate papers. Those messages are brutal to comprehend, and that’s even without the slang. But yeah, I read them as MMSP did, i.e. as him mocking her accusations rather than confessing to them.

They also suggest a longer conversation to which we are not (yet?) privy.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I voted no because I think the Pats have been down this road before. AB has denied the allegations. I really don’t want the Pats defending scumbags but until AB is shown to be a scumbag in court, this is a civil matter and he’s entitled to his hearing.
My view on this is a bit difficult to put in words. I'll try.

He's kind of already shown he's an asshole. I get that doesn't distinguish him from half professional athletes out there but he's shown he's sort of a special kind of asshole.

It makes me less likely to believe him. He deserves his day in court for sure. But I think one has to allow for the possibility that he is a rapist. Let's say it turns out that he is, in fact, a rapist. Let's say we don't find out for three years. And suppose he helps them win the Super Bowl. I won't feel good about that. I won't want to watch Three Games to Glory 7. I won't keep America's Game on my tivo for 15 years. I feel as though if he stays on the team in some senses it's a gamble that he won't be revealed to be a piece of shit -- or an even bigger piece of shit -- in the future. I don't want to gamble my joy of the Patriots on AB. There are players on this team I'd take that gamble on. Not this guy for sure.