Pitching from the stretch vs. the windup

[SumnerH]

I read a quote from Buchholz somewhere that suggested that he found it easier to stay in the new arm slot while pitching from the stretch, so they went with that just to remove another variable.

I think it makes sense. He doesn't need the velocity boost he'd get from the windup; what he needs is reliability, sharpness and deception on his breaking pitches.

Hardball Times looked at it and found no velocity advantage to pitching from the windup vs the stretch among MLB pitchers. http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/does-the-stretch-cost-a-pitcher-fastball-speed/

It'd be interesting to see more data on this.

 

[Broda]

Hardball Times looked at it and found no velocity advantage to pitching from the windup vs the stretch among MLB pitchers. http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/does-the-stretch-cost-a-pitcher-fastball-speed/

It'd be interesting to see more data on this.

Having scouted amateur players for years, I can tell you that this is not true for them.

I'd have to check whatever notes i have left, but I can't remember a kid who threw harder out of the stretch than the windup.

 

[nvalvo]

Hardball Times looked at it and found no velocity advantage to pitching from the windup vs the stretch among MLB pitchers. http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/does-the-stretch-cost-a-pitcher-fastball-speed/

It'd be interesting to see more data on this.

How about that. More conventional wisdom bites the dust.

 

[AbbyNoho]

Having scouted amateur players for years, I can tell you that this is not true for them.

I'd have to check whatever notes i have left, but I can't remember a kid who threw harder out of the stretch than the windup.

It doesn't say that, though. It says there is no difference.

 

[Broda]

It doesn't say that, though. It says there is no difference.

For professionals.

 

[SumnerH]

Having scouted amateur players for years, I can tell you that this is not true for them.

I'd have to check whatever notes i have left, but I can't remember a kid who threw harder out of the stretch than the windup.

These could both be true: with equally good mechanics, stretch vs. windup doesn't help velocity, and kids practice a lot more from the windup so their mechanics/velocity are better there.

The American Sports Medicine Institute did a study of 28 professional players. SSS but they found that "The pitching biomechanics between the wind-up and stretch fastball showed no statistical differences in joint kinetics, kinematics, or timing, and clinically insignificant differences in ball velocity." The abstract mentions about a 0.4 MPH difference in velocity the study, but not which direction it's in.

Unfortunately it's tough to find much other data. The Tigers blog has Verlander throwing about 1MPH faster from the stretch than the windup.

Steve Ellis (who appears to be a former ml pitcher and current pitching coach) writes:

Let’s make one thing clear: You don’t throw slower because of the stretch.

The only reason you lose velocity out of the stretch is because you have spent more time developing your wind-up mechanics. There must be a 50/50 split between practicing both pitching motions.

There are tons of MLB pitchers who strictly throw out of the stretch, and many of these pitchers throw above average velocity.

Which is interesting but hand-wavey.

 

[SydneySox]

Yeah, that's pretty interesting. It might confirm the idea that by the time pitchers make the majors they've so mastered their mechanics and conquered the mental things that it's irrelevant?

Because a lot of the reason I understand the windup and stretch to be an issue for amateur and/or minor league pitchers was confidence and lack of refined mechanics. If Broda is right, and I don't doubt he isn't because it seems to make sense for kids and amateurs, I'd suggest these are the people who are a long way from being comfortable throwing in any situation. Does that make sense?

 

[Broda]

Yeah, that's pretty interesting. It might confirm the idea that by the time pitchers make the majors they've so mastered their mechanics and conquered the mental things that it's irrelevant?

Because a lot of the reason I understand the windup and stretch to be an issue for amateur and/or minor league pitchers was confidence and lack of refined mechanics. If Broda is right, and I don't doubt he isn't because it seems to make sense for kids and amateurs, I'd suggest these are the people who are a long way from being comfortable throwing in any situation. Does that make sense?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. You can check all the pre-draft scouting reports as well. You see a lot of talk of guys throwing slower from the stretch. It probably is a function of a lack of work. Not to mention a lot of these guys are so dominant they don't have to throw out of the stretch a lot as amateurs.

 

[doc]

After trying to teach pitching to my son and some of the local youth league, there is the stretch and the stretch. A lot of young pitchers think just not doing the rocker step is pitching out of the stretch. If you look at the video's of Groom that we have his "stretch" position he is slow to the plate because he uses the same leg kick for both, really high. Pitching from the stretch really means a faster delivery with a half to no leg lift, so the timing of when to initiate the opening the hips and shoulders is all sped up. Pitch speed is generated by the push of the back legs, hip rotation, shoulder rotation, differential between hip and shoulder rotation and arm speed. whether leg kick height generates momentum or not is debatable.

 

[JimBoSox9]

After trying to teach pitching to my son and some of the local youth league, there is the stretch and the stretch. A lot of young pitchers think just not doing the rocker step is pitching out of the stretch. If you look at the video's of Groom that we have his "stretch" position he is slow to the plate because he uses the same leg kick for both, really high. Pitching from the stretch really means a faster delivery with a half to no leg lift, so the timing of when to initiate the opening the hips and shoulders is all sped up. Pitch speed is generated by the push of the back legs, hip rotation, shoulder rotation, differential between hip and shoulder rotation and arm speed. whether leg kick height generates momentum or not is debatable.

I dunno. I feel like in the top half there, you're saying it's only pitching from the stretch if you're using a slide step. If your shoulders are pointed home when you come set, you're pitching from the stretch, in my book.

 

[SydneySox]

So it's absolutely valuable to know, from a MLB perspective, that it makes no difference. And another old school thing bites the dust.

But in the broader context it's not useful data if you're trying to apply it to the 99 per cent of non-elite pitchers. Which isn't a criticism.

 

[SumnerH]

I dunno. I feel like in the top half there, you're saying it's only pitching from the stretch if you're using a slide step. If your shoulders are pointed home when you come set, you're pitching from the stretch, in my book.

"The stretch" is a colloquialism, but you're 100% right: there are 2 legal setups as a pitcher, the windup and the set position (aka "the stretch"). Some pitchers use the slide step from the stretch, some don't. In the windup, you stand with your feet pointing toward home plate. In the stretch, your toes are pointed to the side (toward 3rd base for a righty, 1st for a lefty).

The rules are specific and different between the two deliveries.

507 (a):

(1) The Windup Position
The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot. When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position

(2) The Set Position
Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.
Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 5.07(a)(2) (Rule 8.01(b)) without interruption and in one continuous motion. The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop. This must be enforced. Umpires should watch this closely. Pitchers are constantly attempting to “beat the rule” in their efforts to hold runners on bases and in cases where the pitcher fails to make a complete “stop” called for in the rules, the umpire should immediately call a “Balk.”