For the life of me I don't understand why they like Springer, but agreed that they must. I didn't think that Pritchard could be a rotation guy, and here he is. Hope that they're right.
Pick #38- Jordan Walsh
- Thread starter Cellar-Door
- Start date
You weren't alone on PP. I figured his D would be a problem. BUT credit to Peyton, he got stronger and he can hold up the super athletic WINGs or just hack the BIGs. Plus CJM does a good job of hiding his defense against opposing benches.
Truth be told, my favorite part of the game is when PP/Sam/Luke take the floor with Tatum/White in the middle of Q1/Q3. Winning Time!
The only optimism remaining on Springer has to be his age (he's younger now in year 4 than Pritchard was as a rookie) but I really don't see it anymore, either.
Who likes Springer? Mazzulla pulled him early on two separate occasions in the preseason. He’s clearly not a fan (nor should he be).
I don't think that Joe does. But someone does. I mean, they traded for him and kept him.
I thought the reason they kept Springer is that they did not want to simply eat the contract, and the trade market for him was non-existent over the summer. May be a better chance to unload him close to the deadline, as he could replace an injured bench player for a team fighting for a spot in the play-in.
Wasn’t it reported that Cassell is the big Springer supporter? I think he coached him in Philly too.
EDIT: and I agree with the chorus here that he looks absolutely awful. Don’t have much hope of him ever becoming playable in any situation let alone a rotation player
I am not defending Springer's play. I get the concept of him - athletic, long, active highly switchable defender who, if he develops at all of a shot or improves his passing is suddenly a discount starter or easy rotation guy given athletic and defensive skills.
But...
The instincts aren't there, the offense isn't there, and it takes a lot of projection to get to that concept from where he is, so....
But...
The instincts aren't there, the offense isn't there, and it takes a lot of projection to get to that concept from where he is, so....
I didn’t like trading for him but as a flier sure I get it. As far as keeping him…..if you were one of the other 29 teams would you want him to start the season? He’s be much more desirable for a lottery team late in the year to have a look at once they aren’t competing to win any longer.
First, yes, Cassell endorsed Springer. Celtics Champion Sam Cassell Endorsed Jaden Springer Trade .
But as to your edit, Springer has played 7 minutes this year and while I've not watched every minute of every game, I'm pretty sure he hasn't played any meaningful minutes. Not sure how anyone can tell how anyone looks in 7 minutes, BOS probably has a better idea from practices. And the idea is that (i) he's young, and (ii) he has already demonstrated he can play NBA on-ball defense. Plus, his salary slot could theoretically be important
But in terms of on-court, I'd much rather Walsh or even Baylor and Springer get any minutes that are available over any NBA vet including LW4. The incremental wins that LW4 might have provided isn't nearly as important as any development the Cs can get out of Walsh in particular but also Baylor and Springer.
Maybe closer to the trade deadline the Cs will figure out they won't need his salary slot and will staple a 2nd round pick to him to save the $10M or so in luxury taxes. Cs have called around gauging trade interest reports say: Celtics gauging trade value of reserve guard (report) - masslive.com
It’s more than just practice. We saw him forced into action in Philly last year when they were decimated with injuries and he looked awful. So awful that they gave him away to their division rival and looked like Gerald Green circa 2006 in the preseason, completely lost and unprepared prior to being pulled twice early by Mazzulla.
I am seeing the same thing as you. Springer has not shown anything that suggests he should get more minutes. Quite the contrary actually.
Maybe we are (or just I am) being hard on Springer because of only 7 minutes, but it's all we have at this point beside trusting what CJM et al. see in practice. There have been no "good minutes" that other borderline guys flash sometimes.
Good on Walsh for stealing those minutes, which could have gone elsewhere. That's definitely based on what CJM is seeing in practice.
I'm usually yes develop young players (Sox stage now) but when in GFIN mode I'd rather have Brad/Joe be ruthless with talent/minutes
But I understand keeping him around until the trade deadline ($$$ slot). He's already an NBA-ready defender, so there is always a chance that Springer can bang a few 3s (learned skill) and earn some PT.
I remember a Philly game against us last year where he looked great. 9 points 4/5, 1/1 from 3, 2 Reb, 2 steals, 2 TO's in 20 minutes. Sixers were +20 in his minutes despite losing by 10. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202311150PHI.html
I didn't watch much Philly ball outside of when they played the C's, but my small sample size memory of him is the opposite of yours.
The bull case for Springer at this point is that there's another guy they want who costs < $4M and is somehow available at the trade deadline. Then you use Springer to match, and maybe that guy gets paid more if KP is traded in the summer.
More likely is he gets dumped for a 2nd.
More likely is he gets dumped for a 2nd.
Springer was getting raves about the way he defended Curry before he was traded
Last night – in his final game with Philly before joining the Celtics – Jaden Springer was tasked with being Steph Curry’s primary defender. Steph scored a total of 5 points on Springer, making just 1 FG on 34.2 possessions. : r/bostonceltics
With regards to trading him, everyone knew PHI was getting rid of everyone and everything to create max cap space. One can argue whether POBOBS should have helped PHI create all of that space but he probably figured someone was going to get him so why not take a flyer on him?
Yeah I have no problem taking a flier I just wasn’t anticipating anything to come out of it. I don’t place much weight on a few possessions of defense when the player has never seen that look from a fresh defender. He never been an NBA level player despite having several offseasons to make leaps. I was very high on him coming out of college too.
When someone comes into a game when it’s out of reach, and no one looks like they’re playing hard or doing much of anything, and that player still looks completely lost…that’s a major red flag for me.
I hope I’m wrong but I would be stunned if springer amounted to anything at all. He’s a good defender but he’s a major minus on offense. Again, when you are playing meaningless minutes in blow outs and you stick out like a sore thumb because you appear to have no idea where to go or what to do, I am out on that player
EDIT: the salary implications and possible trade permeations are correct but have nothing to do with my post. I was merely commenting oj how bad he has looked in situations where it’s really, really hard to look that bad
I don't know much about Springer, but here in the Walsh thread, I came to say that Monday vs the Bucks was the first time I can recall that Walsh looked like he could affect the game and make plays against NBA rotation opposition. Some well-contested rebounds, good pass decisions, made some very athletic drives, plus decent shots.
In that spirit, some bits on Walsh's story arc thus far:
From July / Summer League: https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/top-stories/summer-league-struggles-offer-valuable-lessons-to-boston-celtics-jordan-walsh-01j370fwstfc
From September / Training Camp: https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/top-stories/joe-mazzulla-shares-his-outlook-on-jordan-walsh-training-camp-performance-01j927jf6wyc
Dude might be getting close to becoming an NBA player.
In that spirit, some bits on Walsh's story arc thus far:
From July / Summer League: https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/top-stories/summer-league-struggles-offer-valuable-lessons-to-boston-celtics-jordan-walsh-01j370fwstfc
From September / Training Camp: https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/top-stories/joe-mazzulla-shares-his-outlook-on-jordan-walsh-training-camp-performance-01j927jf6wyc
Dude might be getting close to becoming an NBA player.
Walsh coming into a game and immediately hitting two threes is not something that is expected. He’s a smart young man who understands what is needed out of him and what opportunities will be 5ere for him when he gets minutes. He shot that first three with absolute confidence, even though he just entered the game.
,
This, and the big plays against the Bucks, has me encouraged. On such a talented team, with such high character stars and great coaching, young talented players have a tremendous opportunity to create value in the league. Open perimeter shots and an uncrowded lane will be available to Walsh pretty much any time he is in the game in non-garbage time minutes. Shoot the ball confidently, and play aggressively near the rim, and he will impact games, even in short minutes.
Since he started getting real minutes:
Bucks: plus 10 in 13 minutes
Pacers: plus 6 in 8 minutes
Hornets: plus 6 in 6 minutes
,
This, and the big plays against the Bucks, has me encouraged. On such a talented team, with such high character stars and great coaching, young talented players have a tremendous opportunity to create value in the league. Open perimeter shots and an uncrowded lane will be available to Walsh pretty much any time he is in the game in non-garbage time minutes. Shoot the ball confidently, and play aggressively near the rim, and he will impact games, even in short minutes.
Since he started getting real minutes:
Bucks: plus 10 in 13 minutes
Pacers: plus 6 in 8 minutes
Hornets: plus 6 in 6 minutes
That was the next step. He was so far from contributing just months ago and now we are seeing all of these mini-leaps one after another.
What I find most encouraging is that he is taking these steps at just the right time. The non-garbage, non-throwaway game minutes will be there for him the first 2-3 months of the season. The more reasons he gives Coach Joe to dole him real minutes, the more likely those mini-leaps coalesce into a real rotational bench player.
I was about as bearish as it gets on him before the preseason, but as you say, when a young player starts to take mini-leaps, they have a compounding effect:
- not being lost on defense gets you initial minutes
- screening and spacing properly gets you more minutes
- minutes give you confidence
- confidence has you taking your open shots
...and so on. It all works together and builds.
Walsh seems very likely to follow the Hauser/PP path to being a rotation player now, which is a pretty big deal, since he can play a lot of positions.
Anyone with a keener eye and more Maine minutes-watched last year want to take a stab at what his key assets as a player are, and key areas to work on?
E.g.,
- Obviously he needs to put on some muscle, but he's young and seems strong for his age, strong enough that Tre Mann couldn't back him down at least.
- good footwork on rim drives, but not a great finisher
- slow to see switches
- poor at reading transition plays
...but that's just from watching his NBA minutes plus the G League playoffs. Anyone got a better take?
E.g.,
- Obviously he needs to put on some muscle, but he's young and seems strong for his age, strong enough that Tre Mann couldn't back him down at least.
- good footwork on rim drives, but not a great finisher
- slow to see switches
- poor at reading transition plays
...but that's just from watching his NBA minutes plus the G League playoffs. Anyone got a better take?
Might be getting some extended minutes tonight with JB sitting out.
I was super low after summer league and made a comment in the preseason thread it was the first time I thought he looked like he might be an nba player. I am glad to be wrong. He is playing great in his role right now.
I was super low after summer league and made a comment in the preseason thread it was the first time I thought he looked like he might be an nba player. I am glad to be wrong. He is playing great in his role right now.
If a young guy has decent form and confidence, and starts getting consistent reps, it's usually better to take the over on his becoming a 35% shooter in not too long.
Walsh is intriguing because he is already decent at attacking closeouts, so it will be nice if he starts to get more of those to go at.
Exactly. And if he's on the pritchard/Hauser path, it's important to note that they were 24 and 25 in their second seasons - Walsh is just 20.
Any chance Walsh starts tonight in JB’s spot? I have a vague memory of Joe liking to keep his rotations in place for 6-8
Yup, just 20. Older than Tatum, but still not bad!
If I'm reading the rules correctly, I think he becomes extension eligible this summer? That would be their best shot to lock him in really cheap if they like him. He's a UFA after this deal, so it's important to be aggressive on an extension early (not that Brad needs any convincing on that front).
A little irrational exuberance for Walsh's defense. I'm all for it.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2024/11/6/24289376/jordan-walsh-the-defense-has-arrived-boston-celtics-defense
https://www.celticsblog.com/2024/11/6/24289376/jordan-walsh-the-defense-has-arrived-boston-celtics-defense
Most young NBA players feel pressure to score to get PT.
Boston runs the inverse, playing good defense will get you burn.
Walsh/Queta just need to be strong/physical/aggressive on-ball, then disrupt passing lanes with their wingspans off-ball.
CJM will have plenty of minutes for these guys (deep bench) over the first half of the regular season.
Presumably, they've watched Kornet become a star/folk hero by being very reliable at the limited number of things he's asked to do by coaches who seem pretty well tuned-into what he's capable of.
It's a luxury that the C's have such deep all-around depth in their starting lineup that they don't need bench scorers. Instead, they can rotate a bunch of starters to be the scorers with the bench unit. This lets young players focus on providing value through their best skills while letting the offense come to them. I think back to the end of the Big 3 era and how the C's needed guys like Walker and Giddens to develop offensive game because they couldn't score without Pierce and Garnett on the court.
I think we've all seen that Walsh as fallen a bit out of the rotation for good reason. He's not really doing much of anything well.
But I sure do like this:
View: https://twitter.com/NoaDalzell/status/1865948808473202834
But I sure do like this:
View: https://twitter.com/NoaDalzell/status/1865948808473202834
Joe's rotations always have a bit of experimentation to them, so I think you can't read too much into recent trends .
Not a criticism...but if he had called (whoever it is that players call) and said, "I want to go to the practice facility on my day off and shoot 1000 jump shots," isn't the answer "come on down."
Probably just lines up with the work he wants to get in. Most guys(outside of maybe PP) are probably not going to the gym here until they have to, so if he was just looking to take a bunch of shots as you mentioned then sure. But if Maine had a scheduled team practice and he was looking for more game oriented reps he could scrimmage and run drills with them. Honestly to me it speaks highly of him, he's not faking "I'm doing the extra work," he's willing to travel further to get the reps he wants that he thinks will help him help the team
It was a Celtics team off day, so I'm sure he could have had someone from the coaching staff come shoot with him, but this is him asking if he can play in the Maine Celtics game on his off day. And he's not a two-way player. So, this is a guy on an NBA contract asking if he can go down to the G League to work on his game on a day off. I think it's pretty cool that the organization has fostered a culture where heading down to the minors to play isn't seen as a demotion/playing with scrubs, etc., and I think it's pretty cool that Walsh sees it as an opportunity, not a stain on his reputation.
It's like Wilyer Abreu asking if he can go play in the Woo Sox game during a Thursday off day or something. I've never heard of that kind of thing happening, really.
I am first in the "Walsh is barely an NBA player" brigade, but credit where credit is due.....
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/12/13/sports/celtics-jordan-walsh/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/12/13/sports/celtics-jordan-walsh/
What does that say about Scheierman’s standing with Mazzulla when you are passed over in favor of a damaged goods Jordan Walsh?
Yeah it says that everyone has to earn their minutes. But what Walsh is ok at right now is more needed than what Scheierman is supposed to be good at, so there's that too.
Walsh looked decent in the past couple of games. 40 minutes: 9 points (2-5, 2-4 from 3, 3-6 FT), 8 REB, 1A, 1 STL, 1 B, 1 TO. It is still obvious that he isn't strong enough - things happen like he starts to get a rebound and is muscled off of it.
Your right, he's definitely not strong enough. I thought he was next to useless on Sunday, missing a bunny when the game was on the line.
He's had 2 good pre-season games + the 9 pt game on Friday in the 37pt blowout. Otherwise meh.
He's been overwhelmed so far, he's way too frail to be considered a good WING defender, regardless of what his projected reputation is.
Jordan feels like next year's business, which is perfectly acceptable for a 19yr old 2nd rounder.