Phillies release "statement" on Oregon State Ben Wetzler (suspended 20% of season by NCAA)

soxhop411

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Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  13m
Several sources have confirmed #OregonState LHP Ben Wetzler was turned in to #NCAA by #Phillies, who drafted him in 5th round last year.
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  14m
#Phillies also attempted to turn in #Wazzu's Jason Monda, their 6th-rounder last year. He was cleared to play by #NCAA just this Thursday.
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  13m
#Phillies move is a significant departure from industry norm, as #MLB clubs almost never try to get unsigned players in trouble with #NCAA.
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  13m
When asked about Wetzler situation, #Phillies scouting director Marti Wolever said, "I have no comment." Expect more details in coming days.
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  12m
Presumably, they were not happy that he did not sign. RT @jalallier14: @aaronfitt why would they turn him in
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  now
@MindofKVD Nothing about it is normal. It's pretty unheard of
 
https://twitter.com/aaronfitt
.
 
Jim Callis ‏@jimcallisMLB  now
Sounds like @Phillies were mad Wetzler didn't sign. @SweetJJ1s: I'm out of the loop. Why would teams do this?
 
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[SIZE=1em]Lefthanded ace Ben Wetzler has been scratched from No. 2 Oregon State’s season opener today because of a snafu with the NCAA.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1em]According to Aaron Fitt of Baseball America, Wetzler is being held out by the NCAA because of “an eligibility issue” stemming from last summer’s draft, where Wetzler was a fifth round pick by the Philadelphia Phillies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1em]Wetzler engaged in contract negotiations with the Phillies, but eventually decided he wanted to return to Oregon State for his senior year. Apparently, he is being penalized for having an adviser or an agent during the negotiation process with the Phillies. [/SIZE]
http://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/index.ssf/2014/02/issues_and_answers_oregon_stat.html
 
This seems like such an unprofessional move by the PHI and it wouldn't shock me if this hurts them when they try and sign future college draft picks...
 

LogansDad

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Turned in for what?  What is Philly's end game here? It's not like ratting him out is going to make him MORE likely to sign with them if they try to draft him again next year.
 
This doesn't make any sense to me.
 

Toe Nash

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What was he turned in for? Playing for money or accepting it, I guess, so he would be ineligible for NCAA competition?? How did Philly know?
 

soxhop411

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LogansDad said:
Turned in for what?  What is Philly's end game here? It's not like ratting him out is going to make him MORE likely to sign with them if they try to draft him again next year.
 
This doesn't make any sense to me.
 
 
Toe Nash said:
What was he turned in for? Playing for money or accepting it, I guess, so he would be ineligible for NCAA competition?? How did Philly know?
[SIZE=1em]Lefthanded ace Ben Wetzler has been scratched from No. 2 Oregon State’s season opener today because of a snafu with the NCAA.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1em]According to Aaron Fitt of Baseball America, Wetzler is being held out by the NCAA because of “an eligibility issue” stemming from last summer’s draft, where Wetzler was a fifth round pick by the Philadelphia Phillies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1em]Wetzler engaged in contract negotiations with the Phillies, but eventually decided he wanted to return to Oregon State for his senior year. Apparently, he is being penalized for having an adviser or an agent during the negotiation process with the Phillies. [/SIZE]
http://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/index.ssf/2014/02/issues_and_answers_oregon_stat.html
 

MakMan44

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If that's true, seems awfully stupid and petty of the Phillies to turn him in. 
 

Seabass

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It must be for using an agent, right? The Phillies doing this is beyond messed up. These kids already get screwed by the NCAA at every turn, having MLB turn him in is inexcusable. The Phillies have literally nothing to gain from this, other than terrible press and a loss of trust and goodwill from all of the players they'll draft going forward.
 

LoneWarrior1

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Might be petty, but hard to know what went on with the negotiations. Perhaps the agents and or Wetzler pulled a stunt at the last minute. Phillies don't have anything to gain, but it looks like  a waste of a pick at this point. If he can't go back, he might end up signing when all is said and done.
 

ForceAtHome

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LoneWarrior1 said:
Might be petty, but hard to know what went on with the negotiations. Perhaps the agents and or Wetzler pulled a stunt at the last minute. Phillies don't have anything to gain, but it looks like  a waste of a pick at this point. If he can't go back, he might end up signing when all is said and done.
 
Deadline to sign was last July...
 

ForceAtHome

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LoneWarrior1 said:
 
Learn something new everyday. Excuse my ignorance. Seems like a short window considering the draft is in June. 
 
It used to be different. Until 5 or 10 years ago, I think the rule was you could sign a player until his first day of college for fall semester for a four year school. Players who went to junior college or sat out could be "drafted and followed" and signed into the spring.
 

EvilEmpire

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So did the Phillies report him last summer, or did they wait until just before the season started? I don't know how NCAA investigations work, but if the Phillies waited, that makes what they did even more douchetastic.
 

soxhop411

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Seabass177 said:
It must be for using an agent, right? The Phillies doing this is beyond messed up. These kids already get screwed by the NCAA at every turn, having MLB turn him in is inexcusable. The Phillies have literally nothing to gain from this, other than terrible press and a loss of trust and goodwill from all of the players they'll draft going forward.
Using an agent is kind of an open secret (according to reports), as there have been countless draftees who have gone back to school instead of signing a deal with a team and not been looked at by the NCAA.. 
 

Reverend

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Y'all need to read the articles about the NCAA that MDL posted in the Unionization thread in the College Sports forum.
 

LondonSox

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God forbid a teenage kid gets to consult a professional opinion when dealing with a multi billion dollar corporation who has lawyers and experienced professionals put the ying yang.
The rule is stupid.
This is worse.

My wife is a Phillies fan, has any team fallen faster and harder? The gm is horrible.
 

SaveBooFerriss

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LondonSox said:
God forbid a teenage kid gets to consult a professional opinion when dealing with a multi billion dollar corporation who has lawyers and experienced professionals put the ying yang.
The rule is stupid.
This is worse.

My wife is a Phillies fan, has any team fallen faster and harder? The gm is horrible.
 
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but a player is allowed to use an "adviser", but not an "agent".  I have no idea how the NCAA distinguishes between the two.  Obviously, the Phillies thought the person in question acted as an agent, rather than an adviser.  It seems like that is pretty common.  
 
I agree that seems like a bush league move by the Phillies.  
 

Jnai

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<null>
7. Am I permitted to have an advisor during this process?

YES, provided the advisor does not market you to MLB teams. However, an advisor will be considered an agent if they contact teams on your behalf to arrange private workouts or tryouts. Under NCAA regulations, you and your parents are permitted to receive advice from a lawyer or other individual concerning a proposed professional sports contract, provided the advisor does not represent you directly in negotiations for the contract. In this regard, it is permissible for an advisor to discuss with you the merits of a proposed contract and give you suggestions about the type of offer you should consider. In order to maintain your eligibility at an NCAA school, however, you may not use this advisor as a link between you and the professional sports team. Rather, you must view the advisor as an extension of your own interests and not as a source to contact a professional team. If you use the advisor as a direct contact with a professional team, the advisor shall be considered an agent and you will have jeopardized your eligibility at an NCAA school. For example, an advisor may not be present during the discussions of a contract offer with a professional team or have any direct contact (including, but not limited to, in person, by telephone, e-mail or mail) with the professional sports team on your behalf. Finally, it is important to note that in order to maintain your eligibility at an NCAA school, if you receive assistance from an advisor, you will be required to pay that advisor at his or her normal rate for such services.
 
Link to Kevin's reposted BP piece is here:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22862
 

Average Reds

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If the kid hired an agent and used him to negotiate with the Phillies, no one should really give a damn.  He didn't sign the contract.  He didn't take any money.  He decided (instead) to return to college and finish his career.  On what possible grounds should the NCAA suspend him?
 
And let's consider the role of the Phillies.  Maybe there are circumstances where their actions are justified, but I just can't think of any.  They look vindictive and petty, and the reason they look this way is that their actions are vindictive and petty.
 
What I don't understand is what the organization was thinking when they reported this kid?  Because they've done it twice now, and there is no upside for them except for the satisfaction of knowing that they have injured two kids who would not sign with them. 
 
What a fucking clownshow they are ...
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Reverend said:
Y'all need to read the articles about the NCAA that MDL posted in the Unionization thread in the College Sports forum.
 
I won't make them dig, here you go: 

 
Anyone doubting that the NCAA is concerned least of all with the sanctity of college athletics ought to feast on the Atlantic Monthly's lengthy, well-researched piece on this from a year ago.  And if you're not yet convinced that the NCAA is a festering sore on our attempts to actually achieve the goals of higher education, have this St Joe's story for dessert.  The greatest value of that first article is probably in the history lesson of how the NCAA originated and how it got its power, which begins not very far into the piece - even if you end up disagreeing with the author's conclusions, you come out knowing more than you did going in.

 
 
 
As to Jnai's linked definition of the difference between an Advisor and an Agent, as I was reading it, I was thinking "this is annoying but reasonable" up until this line:
 
"For example, an advisor may not be present during the discussions of a contract offer with a professional team"
 
That's patently ridiculous.  You're expecting an amateur (say) 20-year-old kid to sit down across the table from professional baseball contract negotiators who have decades of experience, and get the best deal for himself?  It's one thing to say "you have to pay someone an hourly rate as a consultant, and they can't be a go-between twixt you and the team."  That's fine, that's what an agent does, I get it.  I may not agree with it, but it's a fair place to draw a line.  But to say that an advisor can't advise you during the most important part of that decision is to stretch the meaning beyond the breaking point.
 
What are you supposed to do, rent two hotel rooms, put your advisor in one of them, the team in the other, and run between them while conducting negotiations?  I really don't f'ing understand.
 

kenneycb

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Average Reds said:
If the kid hired an agent and used him to negotiate with the Phillies, no one should really give a damn.  He didn't sign the contract.  He didn't take any money.  He decided (instead) to return to college and finish his career.  On what possible grounds should the NCAA suspend him?
 
And let's consider the role of the Phillies.  Maybe there are circumstances where their actions are justified, but I just can't think of any.  They look vindictive and petty, and the reason they look this way is that their actions are vindictive and petty.
 
What I don't understand is what the organization was thinking when they reported this kid?  Because they've done it twice now, and there is no upside for them except for the satisfaction of knowing that they have injured two kids who would not sign with them. 
 
What a fucking clownshow they are ...
You're applying logic to an organization that gave Ryan Howard $25M a year until he's 37 (plus a $10M buyout).
 

natpastime162

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I was always under the impression, at least from an MLB/Player/Agent perspective, the whole "advisor" classification is just a way around NCAA eligibility requirements.  For years the draft lacked a slotting system and spending cap.  An agent was (and still is) necessary for negotiating purposes.
 
 
ForceAtHome said:
 
It used to be different. Until 5 or 10 years ago, I think the rule was you could sign a player until his first day of college for fall semester for a four year school. Players who went to junior college or sat out could be "drafted and followed" and signed into the spring.
 
Pretty sure a player was eligible to sign until they stepped into their first class.
 

TomRicardo

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Have fun Phillies when every undergraduate draft pick refuses to engage in conversation with you
 

MakMan44

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LoneWarrior1 said:
Is it possible that the Phillies had a Billy Beane like agreement with the player that we will draft you in the 5th if you agree to sign for X? Wetzler said OK and then his side (him or his agent) renegged on the initial agreement.
Hmm, this is interesting but I find it hard to believe that it happened twice in the same draft. 
 
EDIT: Although something may be different with the 6th rounder, he was cleared to play. Still a lot we don't know here. 
 

Jnai

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TomRicardo said:
Have fun Phillies when every undergraduate draft pick refuses to engage in conversation with you
 
The effect is going to be negligible. Kids will still sign with the Phillies.
 
The idea that kids will pass up the opportunity to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars because they're worried the Phillies might tell on them is silly. The kids have essentially none of the power in this process, which is what makes it so fucked up to begin with, and why the Phillies will suffer almost no repercussions from this.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Re-reading that Atlantic Monthly article is just making me angrier and angrier.  I had forgotten that the Blue Jays did exactly what the Phillies are doing here, back in 2009 with James Paxton.
 
Obscure NCAA rules have bedeviled Scott Boras, the preeminent sports agent for Major League Baseball stars, in cases that may ultimately prove more threatening to the NCAA than Ed O’Bannon’s antitrust suit. In 2008, Andrew Oliver, a sophomore pitcher for the Oklahoma State Cowboys, had been listed as the 12th-best professional prospect among sophomore players nationally. He decided to dismiss the two attorneys who had represented him out of high school, Robert and Tim Baratta, and retain Boras instead. Infuriated, the Barattas sent a spiteful letter to the NCAA. Oliver didn’t learn about this until the night before he was scheduled to pitch in the regional final for a place in the College World Series, when an NCAA investigator showed up to question him in the presence of lawyers for Oklahoma State. The investigator also questioned his father, Dave, a truck driver.
 
Had Tim Baratta been present in their home when the Minnesota Twins offered $390,000 for Oliver to sign out of high school? A yes would mean trouble. While the NCAA did not forbid all professional advice—indeed, Baseball America used to publish the names of agents representing draft-likely underclassmen—NCAA Bylaw 12.3.2.1 prohibited actual negotiation with any professional team by an adviser, on pain of disqualification for the college athlete. The questioning lasted past midnight.
 
Just hours before the game was to start the next day, Oklahoma State officials summoned Oliver to tell him he would not be pitching. Only later did he learn that the university feared that by letting him play while the NCAA adjudicated his case, the university would open not only the baseball team but all other Oklahoma State teams to broad punishment under the NCAA’s “restitution rule” (Bylaw 19.7), under which the NCAA threatens schools with sanctions if they obey any temporary court order benefiting a college athlete, should that order eventually be modified or removed. The baseball coach did not even let his ace tell his teammates the sad news in person. “He said, ‘It’s probably not a good idea for you to be at the game,’” Oliver recalls.
 
The Olivers went home to Ohio to find a lawyer. Rick Johnson, a solo practitioner specializing in legal ethics, was aghast that the Baratta brothers had turned in their own client to the NCAA, divulging attorney-client details likely to invite wrath upon Oliver. But for the next 15 months, Johnson directed his litigation against the two NCAA bylaws at issue. Judge Tygh M. Tone, of Erie County, came to share his outrage. On February 12, 2009, Tone struck down the ban on lawyers negotiating for student-athletes as a capricious, exploitative attempt by a private association to “dictate to an attorney where, what, how, or when he should represent his client,” violating accepted legal practice in every state. He also struck down the NCAA’s restitution rule as an intimidation that attempted to supersede the judicial system. Finally, Judge Tone ordered the NCAA to reinstate Oliver’s eligibility at Oklahoma State for his junior season, which started several days later.
 
The NCAA sought to disqualify Oliver again, with several appellate motions to stay “an unprecedented Order purporting to void a fundamental Bylaw.” Oliver did get to pitch that season, but he dropped into the second round of the June 2009 draft, signing for considerably less than if he’d been picked earlier. Now 23, Oliver says sadly that the whole experience “made me grow up a little quicker.” His lawyer claimed victory. “Andy Oliver is the first college athlete ever to win against the NCAA in court,” said Rick Johnson.
 
Yet the victory was only temporary. Wounded, the NCAA fought back with a vengeance. Its battery of lawyers prepared for a damages trial, ultimately overwhelming Oliver’s side eight months later with an offer to resolve the dispute for $750,000. When Oliver and Johnson accepted, to extricate themselves ahead of burgeoning legal costs, Judge Tone was compelled to vacate his orders as part of the final settlement. This freed NCAA officials to reassert the two bylaws that Judge Tone had so forcefully overturned, and they moved swiftly to ramp up rather than curtail enforcement. First, the NCAA’s Eligibility Center devised a survey for every drafted undergraduate athlete who sought to stay in college another year. The survey asked whether an agent had conducted negotiations. It also requested a signed release waiving privacy rights and authorizing professional teams to disclose details of any interaction to the NCAA Eligibility Center. Second, NCAA enforcement officials went after another Scott Boras client.
 
The Toronto Blue Jays had made the left-handed pitcher James Paxton, of the University of Kentucky, the 37th pick in the 2009 draft. Paxton decided to reject a reported $1 million offer and return to school for his senior year, pursuing a dream to pitch for his team in the College World Series. But then he ran into the new NCAA survey. Had Boras negotiated with the Blue Jays? Boras has denied that he did, but it would have made sense that he had—that was his job, to test the market for his client. But saying so would get Paxton banished under the same NCAA bylaw that had derailed Andrew Oliver’s career. Since Paxton was planning to go back to school and not accept their draft offer, the Blue Jays no longer had any incentive to protect him—indeed, they had every incentive to turn him in. The Blue Jays’ president, by telling reporters that Boras had negotiated on Paxton’s behalf, demonstrated to future recruits and other teams that they could use the NCAA’s rules to punish college players who wasted their draft picks by returning to college. The NCAA’s enforcement staff raised the pressure by requesting to interview Paxton.
 
Though Paxton had no legal obligation to talk to an investigator, NCAA Bylaw 10.1(j) specified that anything short of complete cooperation could be interpreted as unethical conduct, affecting his amateur status. Under its restitution rule, the NCAA had leverage to compel the University of Kentucky to ensure obedience.
 
As the 2010 season approached, Gary Henderson, the Kentucky coach, sorely wanted Paxton, one of Baseball America’s top-ranked players, to return. Rick Johnson, Andrew Oliver’s lawyer, filed for a declaratory judgment on Paxton’s behalf, arguing that the state constitution—plus the university’s code of student conduct—barred arbitrary discipline at the request of a third party. Kentucky courts deferred to the university, however, and Paxton was suspended from the team. “Due to the possibility of future penalties, including forfeiture of games,” the university stated, it “could not put the other 32 players of the team and the entire UK 22-sport intercollegiate athletics department at risk by having James compete.” The NCAA appraised the result with satisfaction. “When negotiations occur on behalf of student-athletes,” Erik Christianson, the NCAA spokesperson, told The New York Times in reference to the Oliver case, “those negotiations indicate that the student-athlete intends to become a professional athlete and no longer remain an amateur.”
 
Paxton was stranded. Not only could he not play for Kentucky, but his draft rights with the Blue Jays had lapsed for the year, meaning he could not play for any minor-league affiliate of Major League Baseball. Boras wrangled a holdover job for him in Texas with the independent Grand Prairie AirHogs, pitching against the Pensacola Pelicans and Wichita Wingnuts. Once projected to be a first-round draft pick, Paxton saw his stock plummet into the fourth round. He remained unsigned until late in spring training, when he signed with the Seattle Mariners and reported to their minor-league camp in Peoria, Arizona.
 
I guess it does make financial sense for the teams in these cases.  The answer to Tom Ricardo's taunt is that every drafted player needs the teams' money more than the teams need any given amateur player.
 

Average Reds

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MentalDisabldLst said:
Re-reading that Atlantic Monthly article is just making me angrier and angrier.  I had forgotten that the Blue Jays did exactly what the Phillies are doing here, back in 2009 with James Paxton.
 
Obscure NCAA rules have bedeviled Scott Boras, the preeminent sports agent for Major League Baseball stars, in cases that may ultimately prove more threatening to the NCAA than Ed O’Bannon’s antitrust suit. In 2008, Andrew Oliver, a sophomore pitcher for the Oklahoma State Cowboys, had been listed as the 12th-best professional prospect among sophomore players nationally. He decided to dismiss the two attorneys who had represented him out of high school, Robert and Tim Baratta, and retain Boras instead. Infuriated, the Barattas sent a spiteful letter to the NCAA. Oliver didn’t learn about this until the night before he was scheduled to pitch in the regional final for a place in the College World Series, when an NCAA investigator showed up to question him in the presence of lawyers for Oklahoma State. The investigator also questioned his father, Dave, a truck driver.
 
Had Tim Baratta been present in their home when the Minnesota Twins offered $390,000 for Oliver to sign out of high school? A yes would mean trouble. While the NCAA did not forbid all professional advice—indeed, Baseball America used to publish the names of agents representing draft-likely underclassmen—NCAA Bylaw 12.3.2.1 prohibited actual negotiation with any professional team by an adviser, on pain of disqualification for the college athlete. The questioning lasted past midnight.
 
Just hours before the game was to start the next day, Oklahoma State officials summoned Oliver to tell him he would not be pitching. Only later did he learn that the university feared that by letting him play while the NCAA adjudicated his case, the university would open not only the baseball team but all other Oklahoma State teams to broad punishment under the NCAA’s “restitution rule” (Bylaw 19.7), under which the NCAA threatens schools with sanctions if they obey any temporary court order benefiting a college athlete, should that order eventually be modified or removed. The baseball coach did not even let his ace tell his teammates the sad news in person. “He said, ‘It’s probably not a good idea for you to be at the game,’” Oliver recalls.
 
The Olivers went home to Ohio to find a lawyer. Rick Johnson, a solo practitioner specializing in legal ethics, was aghast that the Baratta brothers had turned in their own client to the NCAA, divulging attorney-client details likely to invite wrath upon Oliver. But for the next 15 months, Johnson directed his litigation against the two NCAA bylaws at issue. Judge Tygh M. Tone, of Erie County, came to share his outrage. On February 12, 2009, Tone struck down the ban on lawyers negotiating for student-athletes as a capricious, exploitative attempt by a private association to “dictate to an attorney where, what, how, or when he should represent his client,” violating accepted legal practice in every state. He also struck down the NCAA’s restitution rule as an intimidation that attempted to supersede the judicial system. Finally, Judge Tone ordered the NCAA to reinstate Oliver’s eligibility at Oklahoma State for his junior season, which started several days later.
 
The NCAA sought to disqualify Oliver again, with several appellate motions to stay “an unprecedented Order purporting to void a fundamental Bylaw.” Oliver did get to pitch that season, but he dropped into the second round of the June 2009 draft, signing for considerably less than if he’d been picked earlier. Now 23, Oliver says sadly that the whole experience “made me grow up a little quicker.” His lawyer claimed victory. “Andy Oliver is the first college athlete ever to win against the NCAA in court,” said Rick Johnson.
 
Yet the victory was only temporary. Wounded, the NCAA fought back with a vengeance. Its battery of lawyers prepared for a damages trial, ultimately overwhelming Oliver’s side eight months later with an offer to resolve the dispute for $750,000. When Oliver and Johnson accepted, to extricate themselves ahead of burgeoning legal costs, Judge Tone was compelled to vacate his orders as part of the final settlement. This freed NCAA officials to reassert the two bylaws that Judge Tone had so forcefully overturned, and they moved swiftly to ramp up rather than curtail enforcement. First, the NCAA’s Eligibility Center devised a survey for every drafted undergraduate athlete who sought to stay in college another year. The survey asked whether an agent had conducted negotiations. It also requested a signed release waiving privacy rights and authorizing professional teams to disclose details of any interaction to the NCAA Eligibility Center. Second, NCAA enforcement officials went after another Scott Boras client.
 
The Toronto Blue Jays had made the left-handed pitcher James Paxton, of the University of Kentucky, the 37th pick in the 2009 draft. Paxton decided to reject a reported $1 million offer and return to school for his senior year, pursuing a dream to pitch for his team in the College World Series. But then he ran into the new NCAA survey. Had Boras negotiated with the Blue Jays? Boras has denied that he did, but it would have made sense that he had—that was his job, to test the market for his client. But saying so would get Paxton banished under the same NCAA bylaw that had derailed Andrew Oliver’s career. Since Paxton was planning to go back to school and not accept their draft offer, the Blue Jays no longer had any incentive to protect him—indeed, they had every incentive to turn him in. The Blue Jays’ president, by telling reporters that Boras had negotiated on Paxton’s behalf, demonstrated to future recruits and other teams that they could use the NCAA’s rules to punish college players who wasted their draft picks by returning to college. The NCAA’s enforcement staff raised the pressure by requesting to interview Paxton.
 
Though Paxton had no legal obligation to talk to an investigator, NCAA Bylaw 10.1(j) specified that anything short of complete cooperation could be interpreted as unethical conduct, affecting his amateur status. Under its restitution rule, the NCAA had leverage to compel the University of Kentucky to ensure obedience.
 
As the 2010 season approached, Gary Henderson, the Kentucky coach, sorely wanted Paxton, one of Baseball America’s top-ranked players, to return. Rick Johnson, Andrew Oliver’s lawyer, filed for a declaratory judgment on Paxton’s behalf, arguing that the state constitution—plus the university’s code of student conduct—barred arbitrary discipline at the request of a third party. Kentucky courts deferred to the university, however, and Paxton was suspended from the team. “Due to the possibility of future penalties, including forfeiture of games,” the university stated, it “could not put the other 32 players of the team and the entire UK 22-sport intercollegiate athletics department at risk by having James compete.” The NCAA appraised the result with satisfaction. “When negotiations occur on behalf of student-athletes,” Erik Christianson, the NCAA spokesperson, told The New York Times in reference to the Oliver case, “those negotiations indicate that the student-athlete intends to become a professional athlete and no longer remain an amateur.”
 
Paxton was stranded. Not only could he not play for Kentucky, but his draft rights with the Blue Jays had lapsed for the year, meaning he could not play for any minor-league affiliate of Major League Baseball. Boras wrangled a holdover job for him in Texas with the independent Grand Prairie AirHogs, pitching against the Pensacola Pelicans and Wichita Wingnuts. Once projected to be a first-round draft pick, Paxton saw his stock plummet into the fourth round. He remained unsigned until late in spring training, when he signed with the Seattle Mariners and reported to their minor-league camp in Peoria, Arizona.
 
I guess it does make financial sense for the teams in these cases.  The answer to Tom Ricardo's taunt is that every drafted player needs the teams' money more than the teams need any given amateur player.
 
Actually, Ricardo is right.  Given the way the NCAA handles these things - assuming guilt until the player is proven innocent - it would be rational for any undergraduate to refuse to talk to the Phillies on the grounds that the mere act of doing so would endanger their eligibility.
 
And it should go without saying that the article makes it clear that the NCAA is an evil fucking organization.
 

Average Reds

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MakMan44 said:
Hmm, this is interesting but I find it hard to believe that it happened twice in the same draft. 
 
EDIT: Although something may be different with the 6th rounder, he was cleared to play. Still a lot we don't know here
 
Here's what we do know - the Phillies acted in a petty and vindictive manner.  We know this because even after they tried to fuck this kid, the NCAA declared that he had done nothing wrong.
 
This thread is making me very, very angry.  (Not the posts here.  The topic.)
 

LondonSox

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Every Phillies fan I know is as disgusted as most people posting here.
I think the dumbness of the situation is two fold though
1) The rule is stupid. Epically so. On the NCAA side
2) I have no idea what the upside is to the Phillies. I cannot understand their actions bar being jilted and being dicks. Which isn't really an upside, just petty.
 
I feel like their GM is seeing what he has to do to get fired.
I mean every move this year is WTF it seems. If he had managed to move Lee and then signed Burnett to that deal, I think that's the only way people could be more irritated at him.
 
Even the "1 year" Burnett deal is in fact not. Signing him to a 1 year deal, and moving him if the season is as bad as everyone outside their front office assumes, that's fine. But they signed him with a 7.5 million player option for 2015, which increases to 8.5 million if he makes 24 starts in 2014. 10 million if he makes 27, 11.75mm at 30 and 12.75 at 32.
 
I mean WAHT?!
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Average Reds said:
Actually, Ricardo is right.  Given the way the NCAA handles these things - assuming guilt until the player is proven innocent - it would be rational for any undergraduate to refuse to talk to the Phillies on the grounds that the mere act of doing so would endanger their eligibility.
 
I think the James Paxton example proves my point.  Have there been even rumors that players wanted to avoid the Blue Jays since 2009?  Their money is still just as green, based on available evidence.  Or whatever fucking color Canadian currency is.
 

soxhop411

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Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN  1m
Amaro: No comment on NCAA situation, because of investigation. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/phillies-decline-comment-on-ncaa-investigation?ymd=20140220&content_id=68003304&vkey=news_mlb  That's amusing; Phillies aren't being investigated.
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/phillies-decline-comment-on-ncaa-investigation?ymd=20140220&content_id=68003304&vkey=news_mlb
 
 
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN  46s
If the Phillies -- a billion-dollar company -- actually decided to attack a college kid's eligibility, they should explain why.
 

Average Reds

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MentalDisabldLst said:
 
I think the James Paxton example proves my point.  Have there been even rumors that players wanted to avoid the Blue Jays since 2009?  Their money is still just as green, based on available evidence.  Or whatever fucking color Canadian currency is.
 
The reason I disagree is the other side of the same coin - I never heard about James Paxton before today because it wasn't well reported.  And it's tough for college players and/or their "advisers" to get up in arms about the actions of a specific organization if the outrageous behavior of that organization isn't something they are aware of.
 
The Phillies already did this once this year and there was no reporting of it.  They did it a second time and the timing of it was such that it has caused a media storm.  Their behavior is indefensible and I think the combination will hurt them.
 
But regardless, we're on the same page about the NCAA, so no need to argue over this.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Oh I know, I'm not arguing, I just wanted to get in a dig against Canadian currency.  Especially given what just transpired in Sochi.
 
If there are material repercussions for the Phillies as a result of doing this, (A) I would enjoy it greatly, and (B) I would be very surprised.  I hope I'm surprised.
 

LoneWarrior1

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soxhop411 said:
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  58s
One agent: "As of today, Phillies are out. Phillies are not getting into any more of our households. We're shutting down all communications"
 
Yikes
 
Easy to talk tough with the draft months away.
 
On another note, I'm wondering if this is a situation where the Phillies have been burned a couple of times by high draft picks and are drawing a line in the sand.
 
Lost a 2nd round HS pitcher in  2012
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2012/07/09/phillies-gm-on-rash-its-probably-best-for-him-to-go-to-school/article
 
They lost a 6th round catcher in 2011:
http://theeastcarolinian.com/?p=3103
 
 
Not saying it is the right approach and sometimes high picks don't sign for a variety of reasons. I'm fascinated by their motivations which deviates from the SOP. As a friend said to me "It's not like they found religion and are taking the moral approach to the agent / advisor system"
 

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Re-reading that Atlantic Monthly article is just making me angrier and angrier.  I had forgotten that the Blue Jays did exactly what the Phillies are doing here, back in 2009 with James Paxton.
 
Obscure NCAA rules have bedeviled Scott Boras, the preeminent sports agent for Major League Baseball stars, in cases that may ultimately prove more threatening to the NCAA than Ed O’Bannon’s antitrust suit. In 2008, Andrew Oliver, a sophomore pitcher for the Oklahoma State Cowboys, had been listed as the 12th-best professional prospect among sophomore players nationally. He decided to dismiss the two attorneys who had represented him out of high school, Robert and Tim Baratta, and retain Boras instead. Infuriated, the Barattas sent a spiteful letter to the NCAA. Oliver didn’t learn about this until the night before he was scheduled to pitch in the regional final for a place in the College World Series, when an NCAA investigator showed up to question him in the presence of lawyers for Oklahoma State. The investigator also questioned his father, Dave, a truck driver.
 
Had Tim Baratta been present in their home when the Minnesota Twins offered $390,000 for Oliver to sign out of high school? A yes would mean trouble. While the NCAA did not forbid all professional advice—indeed, Baseball America used to publish the names of agents representing draft-likely underclassmen—NCAA Bylaw 12.3.2.1 prohibited actual negotiation with any professional team by an adviser, on pain of disqualification for the college athlete. The questioning lasted past midnight.
 
Just hours before the game was to start the next day, Oklahoma State officials summoned Oliver to tell him he would not be pitching. Only later did he learn that the university feared that by letting him play while the NCAA adjudicated his case, the university would open not only the baseball team but all other Oklahoma State teams to broad punishment under the NCAA’s “restitution rule” (Bylaw 19.7), under which the NCAA threatens schools with sanctions if they obey any temporary court order benefiting a college athlete, should that order eventually be modified or removed. The baseball coach did not even let his ace tell his teammates the sad news in person. “He said, ‘It’s probably not a good idea for you to be at the game,’” Oliver recalls.
 
The Olivers went home to Ohio to find a lawyer. Rick Johnson, a solo practitioner specializing in legal ethics, was aghast that the Baratta brothers had turned in their own client to the NCAA, divulging attorney-client details likely to invite wrath upon Oliver. But for the next 15 months, Johnson directed his litigation against the two NCAA bylaws at issue. Judge Tygh M. Tone, of Erie County, came to share his outrage. On February 12, 2009, Tone struck down the ban on lawyers negotiating for student-athletes as a capricious, exploitative attempt by a private association to “dictate to an attorney where, what, how, or when he should represent his client,” violating accepted legal practice in every state. He also struck down the NCAA’s restitution rule as an intimidation that attempted to supersede the judicial system. Finally, Judge Tone ordered the NCAA to reinstate Oliver’s eligibility at Oklahoma State for his junior season, which started several days later.
 
The NCAA sought to disqualify Oliver again, with several appellate motions to stay “an unprecedented Order purporting to void a fundamental Bylaw.” Oliver did get to pitch that season, but he dropped into the second round of the June 2009 draft, signing for considerably less than if he’d been picked earlier. Now 23, Oliver says sadly that the whole experience “made me grow up a little quicker.” His lawyer claimed victory. “Andy Oliver is the first college athlete ever to win against the NCAA in court,” said Rick Johnson.
 
Yet the victory was only temporary. Wounded, the NCAA fought back with a vengeance. Its battery of lawyers prepared for a damages trial, ultimately overwhelming Oliver’s side eight months later with an offer to resolve the dispute for $750,000. When Oliver and Johnson accepted, to extricate themselves ahead of burgeoning legal costs, Judge Tone was compelled to vacate his orders as part of the final settlement. This freed NCAA officials to reassert the two bylaws that Judge Tone had so forcefully overturned, and they moved swiftly to ramp up rather than curtail enforcement. First, the NCAA’s Eligibility Center devised a survey for every drafted undergraduate athlete who sought to stay in college another year. The survey asked whether an agent had conducted negotiations. It also requested a signed release waiving privacy rights and authorizing professional teams to disclose details of any interaction to the NCAA Eligibility Center. Second, NCAA enforcement officials went after another Scott Boras client.
 
The Toronto Blue Jays had made the left-handed pitcher James Paxton, of the University of Kentucky, the 37th pick in the 2009 draft. Paxton decided to reject a reported $1 million offer and return to school for his senior year, pursuing a dream to pitch for his team in the College World Series. But then he ran into the new NCAA survey. Had Boras negotiated with the Blue Jays? Boras has denied that he did, but it would have made sense that he had—that was his job, to test the market for his client. But saying so would get Paxton banished under the same NCAA bylaw that had derailed Andrew Oliver’s career. Since Paxton was planning to go back to school and not accept their draft offer, the Blue Jays no longer had any incentive to protect him—indeed, they had every incentive to turn him in. The Blue Jays’ president, by telling reporters that Boras had negotiated on Paxton’s behalf, demonstrated to future recruits and other teams that they could use the NCAA’s rules to punish college players who wasted their draft picks by returning to college. The NCAA’s enforcement staff raised the pressure by requesting to interview Paxton.
 
Though Paxton had no legal obligation to talk to an investigator, NCAA Bylaw 10.1(j) specified that anything short of complete cooperation could be interpreted as unethical conduct, affecting his amateur status. Under its restitution rule, the NCAA had leverage to compel the University of Kentucky to ensure obedience.
 
As the 2010 season approached, Gary Henderson, the Kentucky coach, sorely wanted Paxton, one of Baseball America’s top-ranked players, to return. Rick Johnson, Andrew Oliver’s lawyer, filed for a declaratory judgment on Paxton’s behalf, arguing that the state constitution—plus the university’s code of student conduct—barred arbitrary discipline at the request of a third party. Kentucky courts deferred to the university, however, and Paxton was suspended from the team. “Due to the possibility of future penalties, including forfeiture of games,” the university stated, it “could not put the other 32 players of the team and the entire UK 22-sport intercollegiate athletics department at risk by having James compete.” The NCAA appraised the result with satisfaction. “When negotiations occur on behalf of student-athletes,” Erik Christianson, the NCAA spokesperson, told The New York Times in reference to the Oliver case, “those negotiations indicate that the student-athlete intends to become a professional athlete and no longer remain an amateur.”
 
Paxton was stranded. Not only could he not play for Kentucky, but his draft rights with the Blue Jays had lapsed for the year, meaning he could not play for any minor-league affiliate of Major League Baseball. Boras wrangled a holdover job for him in Texas with the independent Grand Prairie AirHogs, pitching against the Pensacola Pelicans and Wichita Wingnuts. Once projected to be a first-round draft pick, Paxton saw his stock plummet into the fourth round. He remained unsigned until late in spring training, when he signed with the Seattle Mariners and reported to their minor-league camp in Peoria, Arizona.
 
I guess it does make financial sense for the teams in these cases.  The answer to Tom Ricardo's taunt is that every drafted player needs the teams' money more than the teams need any given amateur player.
 
Yep, exactly. Thanks for picking up the slack on my laziness but having read that more recently I wasn't willing to subject myself to the awful again so soon.
 
 
Average Reds said:
 
The reason I disagree is the other side of the same coin - I never heard about James Paxton before today because it wasn't well reported.  And it's tough for college players and/or their "advisers" to get up in arms about the actions of a specific organization if the outrageous behavior of that organization isn't something they are aware of.
 
The Phillies already did this once this year and there was no reporting of it.  They did it a second time and the timing of it was such that it has caused a media storm.  Their behavior is indefensible and I think the combination will hurt them.
 
But regardless, we're on the same page about the NCAA, so no need to argue over this.
 
Please, please, please let this shit finally get picked up.
 
 
LoneWarrior1 said:
Easy to talk tough with the draft months away.
 
On another note, I'm wondering if this is a situation where the Phillies have been burned a couple of times by high draft picks and are drawing a line in the sand.
 
Lost a 2nd round HS pitcher in  2012
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2012/07/09/phillies-gm-on-rash-its-probably-best-for-him-to-go-to-school/article
 
They lost a 6th round catcher in 2011:
http://theeastcarolinian.com/?p=3103
 
 
Not saying it is the right approach and sometimes high picks don't sign for a variety of reasons. I'm fascinated by their motivations which deviates from the SOP. As a friend said to me "It's not like they found religion and are taking the moral approach to the agent / advisor system"
 
See, that's just it: they weren't burned, they just didn't sign the guy. Allowing an adviser or whatever to facilitate the process when you think it's going to work out and then petulantly attacking a kid's career when it doesn't work out is bullshit; the team has the rights to negotiate with the guy, they don't own him and he has the right not to sign.
 
By sanctioning players for this stuff, the NCAA is basically unfairly altering the leverage of the MLB clubs vis-a-vis the players which is totally fucked up, and the kids have no recourse because the NCAA and MLB are different organizations; NCAA is basically the MLB's thug enforcer here.
 
Damn, I'm getting AverageReds mad about this too. Again.
 

Average Reds

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Reverend said:
 
Damn, I'm getting AverageReds mad about this too. Again.
 
Must not go on apoplectic rant. 
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
Must not go on apoplectic rant.
.......
 

LoneWarrior1

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Reverend said:
 
Yep, exactly. Thanks for picking up the slack on my laziness but having read that more recently I wasn't willing to subject myself to the awful again so soon.
 
 
 
Please, please, please let this shit finally get picked up.
 
 
 
See, that's just it: they weren't burned, they just didn't sign the guy. Allowing an adviser or whatever to facilitate the process when you think it's going to work out and then petulantly attacking a kid's career when it doesn't work out is bullshit; the team has the rights to negotiate with the guy, they don't own him and he has the right not to sign.
 
By sanctioning players for this stuff, the NCAA is basically unfairly altering the leverage of the MLB clubs vis-a-vis the players which is totally fucked up, and the kids have no recourse because the NCAA and MLB are different organizations; NCAA is basically the MLB's thug enforcer here.
 
Damn, I'm getting AverageReds mad about this too. Again.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with your take on it. Again, I'm trying to get at the Philly's rationale to break the current protocol. Perhaps part of the problem from Philly's perspective is that MLB prospects have the leverage of choosing not to sign and go off to or back to college.  In the NFL or NBA, when you declare, you're gone. Maybe they Phills are trying to gain some leverage for themselves, and perhaps for the league, through this move.
 
 Not agreeing with the move, just trying to understand the rationale other than "they're dicks."
 

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Why wouldn't MLB institute a change in rules whereby you have to declare for the draft, as the NFL does?  What's the downside to that from their perspective?  Would the players association be against that?  The incoming players lose some leverage for sure, but if that's not a problem for the NFL why is it a problem for MLB?
 

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Oil Can Dan said:
Why wouldn't MLB institute a change in rules whereby you have to declare for the draft, as the NFL does?  What's the downside to that from their perspective?  Would the players association be against that?  The incoming players lose some leverage for sure, but if that's not a problem for the NFL why is it a problem for MLB?
 
The NFL doesn't have high school kids weighing the option of going to college or going pro, do they?
 
Also, NFL draft picks go straight to the NFL and get pro contracts at that time, right? A high school kid gets a signing bonus while he gets paid next to nothing in the lower minors for years. If every high school kid who commits to the draft loses NCAA eligibility, I'd imagine teams are going to be holding them over a barrel when it comes to reduced signing bonuses. Look at what happens to NCAA seniors already.
 

Oil Can Dan

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ForceAtHome said:
 
The NFL doesn't have high school kids weighing the option of going to college or going pro, do they?
 
Also, NFL draft picks go straight to the NFL and get pro contracts at that time, right? A high school kid gets a signing bonus while he gets paid next to nothing in the lower minors for years. If every high school kid who commits to the draft loses NCAA eligibility, I'd imagine teams are going to be holding them over a barrel when it comes to reduced signing bonuses. Look at what happens to NCAA seniors already.
What's the difference between a high school baseball player and a college junior football player as they relate to your post? Especially if the baseball player projects as a top 100 pick and the football player is more 4th plus round material.
 

ForceAtHome

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Oil Can Dan said:
What's the difference between a high school baseball player and a college junior football player as they relate to your post? Especially if the baseball player projects as a top 100 pick and the football player is more 4th plus round material.
 
I don't claim to know a lot about the NFL, especially not their draft and salary structuring. From what I gather (and someone correct me if I am wrong), draft pick compensation tends to go according to slot more than baseball, or at least in more of a descending pay scale. That is to say, football doesn't have these late round bonus babies you can buy with money. If that's the case, there's going to be less leverage on screwing guys out of bonuses, I'd imagine. Even if that's not the case, judging from what I can tell, a 5th round NFL pick is looking at ~$150-250K in a signing bonus. But, he's also looking at $400,000+ in a minimum salary that year. Even if he somehow gets taken for a ride and doesn't get a signing bonus, he's still looking at half a million that season and probably more in guaranteed money with the next couple seasons.
 
A high school baseball player's salary is going to be next to nothing for the first few years of his career while he kicks around the minors. All he's going to really get is that bonus. Trey Ball got $2.75m as a 7th overall pick from HS this year. The Red Sox also had three top-10 round picks sign for $10,000 bonuses. What did they all have in common? They were college seniors with no leverage. Once you take away leverage at getting a decent signing bonus, going pro becomes very unattractive for a lot of high school players. MLB/MiLB would lose out on a ton of high end talent who would rather go to college than risk getting swindled out of a decent signing bonus and get paid nothing for 3-6 years in the minors. One of the biggest incentives of going pro at age 18 rather than 21 is getting paid instantly. If you remove that, a lot more kids are going to take the free education.
 
What would Trey Ball have done if the Red Sox had offered $10,000, take it or leave it, and he was ineligible to go to college? I suspect he wouldn't have entered the draft.
 

soxhop411

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Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  4m
OSU: "Although the evidence was unclear, the NCAA found that Wetzler’s adviser did have prohibited contact"—with the Phillies on his behalf.
 
you mean like every player that gets drafted? NCAA and PHI are jokes
 

Rough Carrigan

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EvilEmpire said:
So did the Phillies report him last summer, or did they wait until just before the season started? I don't know how NCAA investigations work, but if the Phillies waited, that makes what they did even more douchetastic.
This is an important distinction which could raise the level of douchery of the Phillies, if they waited till the last moment and then ratted him out to the NCAA.   I don't think anyone's answered this yet.
 

soxhop411

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Rough Carrigan said:
This is an important distinction which could raise the level of douchery of the Phillies, if they waited till the last moment and then ratted him out to the NCAA.   I don't think anyone's answered this yet.
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  1m
Oregon State's Steve Clark also said, "It is our understanding the #phillies reported it" in November.
 
https://twitter.com/aaronfitt/status/437023623380230144
 
That seems really late to me
 
Phi better explain why they did this…..
 

soxhop411

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NCAA:
 

Oregon State University baseball student-athlete Ben Wetzler must miss 11 games (20 percent of the season) due to his involvement with an agent during the 2013 Major League Baseball draft. According to the facts of the case, which were agreed upon by the school and the NCAA, Wetzler sought help from an agent who attended meetings where Wetzler negotiated contract terms with the team.
NCAA rules allow a baseball student-athlete to receive advice from a lawyer or agent regarding a proposed professional sports contract. However, if the student-athlete is considering returning to an NCAA school, that advisor may not negotiate on behalf of a student-athlete or be present during discussions of a contract offer, including phone calls, email or in-person conversations. Along with the school, a student-athlete is responsible for maintaining his eligibility.
When an NCAA member school discovers a rules violation has occurred involving a student-athlete, it must declare the student-athlete ineligible and may ask the NCAA to restore eligibility. Oregon State submitted its reinstatement request Feb. 18. The NCAA then worked with the school to finalize the facts of the case. The NCAA provided the school and student-athlete with a decision today, Feb. 21.
 
 

He had an advisor at a meeting! Like every other draft pick….
 
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/press-releases/oregon-states-ben-wetzler-eligible-play-march-2 …
 

Rough Carrigan

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soxhop411 said:
 
Aaron Fitt ‏@aaronfitt  1m
Oregon State's Steve Clark also said, "It is our understanding the #phillies reported it" in November.
 
https://twitter.com/aaronfitt/status/437023623380230144
 
That seems really late to me
 
Phi better explain why they did this…..
 
Yeah, I think Fitt is correct.  That's what BP is reporting as well, that the Phillies ratted him out last fall.
 
Without saying it explicitly, BP's article implies that Wetzler moved the goal posts and wanted more money after phillie scouts had told the organization that some lesser number would be what it took to sign him.  As BP goes on to say:
 
Ironically, the presence of high-quality agent advisors in the process helps both parties avoid these non-signings, as an agent advisor has the experience and the contextual knowledge to help ground a player’s (and his player’s family’s) expectations. Most of the instances of post-draft changes in demands and ultimate non-signings have been a result of unreasonable expectations on the part of the parents of the player. The system works best when a player and his family receive good counsel from an experienced agent advisor, which points our finger at the final culprit.