Peter Gammons on the Red Sox hitting philosophy

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,725
On The Athletic (worth the subscription) Gammons talks about the way the organization approaches hitting, especially the 2 hitting coaches and "Professor" JD Martinez.

"...now that Tim Hyers and Andy Barkett are in their second season as the major league hitting coaches — each out of the Robert Van Scoloc-Craig Wallenbrock school, from whence Professor J.D. Martinez graduated — the Red Sox have evolved in their organizational hitting philosophy to become the 21st-century version of Ted Williams’ “The Science of Hitting, Revisited.”

They preach a lessened leg kick. “The velocity today is so great, it’s difficult to get the consistent timing necessary to establish the base.” They teach a solid foot base, with the feet driving the legs and, instead of rotating the feet, driving into the natural turn in the hips that leads to the hands and, as Martinez likes to explain, “following the ball off the bat.” They want to allow pitches to get deep, the hands getting behind the ball.

Martinez is their essential model. Every batting practice swing is taken seriously. He acknowledges, “I am a great believer in preparation,” meaning online, video scouting, visualization. Other players see how J.D. and Betts prepare together, videotaping every BP swing while making it clear to other players that they will welcome them into their group and their indoor hitting cage work programs."​

The team is trying to spread this approach throughout the minor league system, the way they did with pitching last year:

"This winter, Cora’s initiative was resoundingly accepted through the entire organization. The pitching programs of Dana Levangie and Brian Bannister had already adapted, with veteran coaches and instructors mixed with David Bush and Shawn Haviland, schooled in the tools pioneered by pitchers like Bannister and Dan Haren (Arizona), who try to integrate tradition and modern practices.

Now the organization is trying to teach the same philosophies on every level. In January, they brought all their hitting coaches in to Fort Myers for a week, everyone from Hyers and Barkett to their minor league co-workers, from Rich Gedman to Lee May to Greg Norton and Nate Spears as well as Dwight Evans (a former Colorado hitting coach), all invested in their philosophies."
After the World Series, Jackie Bradley visited Wollenbrock to keep working on his swing, trying to maintain his strong second half.

"Hitting coaches told me to watch his BP sessions. Every swing in the 20-something sessions viewed was precisely the same, with the balance in his feet, little leg lift, his hips working in sync, no changes. The first swing he took in a game? Gone. “I have no idea how many swings I’ve taken since I started this process,” he says. “I am going to make it work. No more changes.”​

The coaches love Dalbec's power:
“Dalbec’s natural power is sick, maybe greater than any I’ve ever seen,” says Hyers. The 6-4, 230-pound Dalbec, who also pitched for Arizona in college, is a good defensive third baseman with a big arm. The power has always been there, and if you watch his BP you see backspin power that no one has matched in a Boston spring training in 40 years. He led the Cape League in homers in 2015. He has hit 52 homers in 248 minor league games. But he has also struck out 341 times in 888 at-bats...
Hyers says he occasionally falls back to his old habit of leaning on his back leg to try to lift balls, but those moments are few and far between. “I never see him have a bad BP, his habits, his learning skills are really good,” says Evans. “I think his approach is going to pay off in a big way. He has a chance to be a star.”

As last season progressed, Dalbec got increasingly consistent in hitting the ball in the middle of the field. “He doesn’t have to try to hit for power,” says Hyers. “If he hits it in the middle of the field, it’s got unbelievable spin and carry.”

“He now hits the ball from right-center to left-center,” says Barkett. “In the opening game (albeit against Northeastern University) he missed a pitch and still hit it over the batter’s eye in center field.” There was a comp to Troy Glaus. Two to Pat Burrell. “Even if he turns out to be Mark Reynolds,” says one of their coaches, “that’s a useful player. Right now, I’m betting on the ceiling. The more he gets used to the routine he’s in with the major leaguers, the less he’s going to go back to the minors and get into a bad streak because he loses confidence, makes changes and starts striking out. He’s learning how to take a consistent approach to work every day.”​

Exciting stuff, in the eternal optimism of spring. It's great that the organization is taking both the pitching and now the hitting philosophy and spreading them throughout the farm system. It's like the modern, Red Sox version of the old "Oriole Way" that Baltimore taught all their minor leaguers when Earl Weaver was the manager.

It seems to me that the organization believes that with their philosophies, they can develop some of the their minor league players into big league contributors, even if they aren't necessarily viewed as top prospects elsewhere. As well as helping the current big leaguers maintain and improve.

I hope they are right about that, as filling needs with cheap internal solutions would be a huge help in keeping the core together and hopefully maintaining the winning beyond the next year or two.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
7,095
That's great, Eagle, thank you for sharing. I especially like hearing about Dalbec - I've always thought of him as a two-outcome bat with lots of the bad outcome, it would be really terrific to see him develop into a Glaus-type player.

Quick add - here's what BP said in 2018: "Bobby Dalbec's walk-up song should be Duke Ellington’s “It Don’t Mean a Thing” because it’s about missing swings. He continues to make Joey Gallo look like Ichiro." and in 2017: "Fourth-rounder Bobby Dalbec has big power, a big arm and a big body, but he’d manage to swing and miss at a piñata even without a blindfold. If he strikes out as a position player, he’s got a potential future on the mound."
 

Rough Carrigan

reasons within Reason
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Very interesting stuff and it's encouraging to see the Sox doing this.
Now that there are no major league teams that seriously believe stupid things like the early 2000's Angels' belief in productive outs as the key to an offense, how do you differentiate yourself?

As serious philosophical differences between teams become smaller and smaller, how do you get an edge? Better coaching like this and better training and medicine?
 

Buck Showalter

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2002
6,652
Citifield - Queens, NY
I’m not going to herald or argue against the ‘productive outs’ thesis but I would think the Red Sox offense (especially during the 2018 postseason campaign) showed that curtailing strikeouts breathes oxygen into an overall offensive charge.

As for Dalbec – great power potential, but 341 K’s in 888 AB’s (over 38%) is an approach that only could be tolerated in a line-up that lacked his identical-twin or had a collective approach that differed. That’s just too many plate appearances being forfeited in my opinion.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I’m not going to herald or argue against the ‘productive outs’ thesis but I would think the Red Sox offense (especially during the 2018 postseason campaign) showed that curtailing strikeouts breathes oxygen into an overall offensive charge.

As for Dalbec – great power potential, but 341 K’s in 888 AB’s (over 38%) is an approach that only could be tolerated in a line-up that lacked his identical-twin or had a collective approach that differed. That’s just too many plate appearances being forfeited in my opinion.
Using AB's is entirely unfair, especially for a player like Dalbec. Yes, he strikes out a lot but he does not make Joey Gallo look like Ichiro. He has 341 Ks in 1047 PA (32.6%) which is not good, but is far better than 38%. Gallo had 718 Ks in 2071 PA in the minors, A K rate of 34.&%, worse than Dalbec's. His BB rate was 14.7%, Dalbec's 11.1%. Dalbec's slash line is .273/.365/.529 to Gallo's .254/.369/.587. Gallo has a bit more power but Dalbec makes better contact and is a better defender at a more valuable position.

I think the odds are against Dalbec and his strike out issues are a huge concern but not as big as some have made it to be. This isn't directed at you, it's directed at those scouting reports above.

One reason for optimism would be our very own Michael Chavis but he has question marks of his own. His first full year, he had a K rate of 30.5%. His 2nd year he cut that down to 23.9%, 3rd year to 21.6%. Last year it climbed back up to 26.8% but it was only 194 PA.
 

Buck Showalter

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2002
6,652
Citifield - Queens, NY
On another note:

I have to address Gammons' statement that: "the Red Sox have evolved in their organizational hitting philosophy to become the 21st-century version of Ted Williams’ “The Science of Hitting, Revisited.”

While true or not.....I find it odd (especially if true) that Rich Gedman and Dwight Evans would be a component of the coaching roster to this philosophy.....particularly as it relates to the swing.

Both of these former Red Sox hitters were "major" disciples of the great Red Sox Hitting Coach Walt Hriniak.

Hriniak was a disciple / part of the coaching tree for the great Charley Lau.....who was often at odds with Williams' willingness to accentuate pulling the ball by way of an explosion of the hips in the swing.

If you lived thru the 80's and wanted to learn how to hit a baseball at a competitive level - The Art of Hitting .300 by Charley Lau was an indispensable guide to simplify and understand such a complex act (especially for young hitters).

During this time, Williams had also re-released / re-published The Science of Hitting and (at least) in its written form was very much the opposite of Lau's approach.

So when Gammons hints that Gedman and Evans are assisting to proselytize Williams' approach throughout the organization, I find that a little hard to believe.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,958
Saskatoon Canada
I didn't see anything in the article about Ted Williams philosophy just a writer trying to get hook line using the "science of hitting" in his sentence.
 

mikeysox

New Member
Jul 15, 2005
45
I didn't see anything in the article about Ted Williams philosophy just a writer trying to get hook line using the "science of hitting" in his sentence.
Gammons may not have bothered to actually say it, but my recollection from similar pieces about J.D. and his hitting coaches (and the "launch angle revolution" generally) is that they explicitly use the same basic principals Williams preached.

I read "The Science of Hitting" last year. It was excellent.
 

PrometheusWakefield

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2009
10,441
Boston, MA
Dalbec doesn't make Gallo look like Ichiro, Dalbec just looks like Gallo. When Gallo first got to AA, he struck out 39.5% of the time; Dalbec struck out 37.1% of the time in his first taste of AA. Gallo was 2 years younger at the time, still, Gallo proves that you can be a quality major league player despite striking out over 35% of the time, if you can lead all of MLB in barrels per PA, post the third highest exit velocity in MLB and also remember to walk 12% of the time. Of course that's a pretty narrow path to MLB success.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,048
On another note:

I have to address Gammons' statement that: "the Red Sox have evolved in their organizational hitting philosophy to become the 21st-century version of Ted Williams’ “The Science of Hitting, Revisited.”

While true or not.....I find it odd (especially if true) that Rich Gedman and Dwight Evans would be a component of the coaching roster to this philosophy.....particularly as it relates to the swing.

Both of these former Red Sox hitters were "major" disciples of the great Red Sox Hitting Coach Walt Hriniak.

Hriniak was a disciple / part of the coaching tree for the great Charley Lau.....who was often at odds with Williams' willingness to accentuate pulling the ball by way of an explosion of the hips in the swing.

If you lived thru the 80's and wanted to learn how to hit a baseball at a competitive level - The Art of Hitting .300 by Charley Lau was an indispensable guide to simplify and understand such a complex act (especially for young hitters).

During this time, Williams had also re-released / re-published The Science of Hitting and (at least) in its written form was very much the opposite of Lau's approach.

So when Gammons hints that Gedman and Evans are assisting to proselytize Williams' approach throughout the organization, I find that a little hard to believe.
I would expect that the assumption that coaches were teaching whatever they felt like instead of following the best practices established by the organization is exactly the kind of thing the Red Sox are seeking to change.

I think it's pretty awesome that the Red Sox are exploiting the value added from having good, effective, integrated and coordinated organizational communication as a competitive advantage.
 

Rough Carrigan

reasons within Reason
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
On another note:

I have to address Gammons' statement that: "the Red Sox have evolved in their organizational hitting philosophy to become the 21st-century version of Ted Williams’ “The Science of Hitting, Revisited.”

While true or not.....I find it odd (especially if true) that Rich Gedman and Dwight Evans would be a component of the coaching roster to this philosophy.....particularly as it relates to the swing.

Both of these former Red Sox hitters were "major" disciples of the great Red Sox Hitting Coach Walt Hriniak.

Hriniak was a disciple / part of the coaching tree for the great Charley Lau.....who was often at odds with Williams' willingness to accentuate pulling the ball by way of an explosion of the hips in the swing.

If you lived thru the 80's and wanted to learn how to hit a baseball at a competitive level - The Art of Hitting .300 by Charley Lau was an indispensable guide to simplify and understand such a complex act (especially for young hitters).

During this time, Williams had also re-released / re-published The Science of Hitting and (at least) in its written form was very much the opposite of Lau's approach.

So when Gammons hints that Gedman and Evans are assisting to proselytize Williams' approach throughout the organization, I find that a little hard to believe.
Well, Gedman helicopter swung himself right out of the league once he was devoted to it so maybe he's thought about it and reconsidered it. I'd be surprised if either guy is really pushing an approach because it worked (Evans) or was what he followed (Gedman) 30+ years ago. There's got to be more work at organizational consistency than to allow that to happen assuming that those two guys even intended to push their old ways.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,402
Well, Gedman helicopter swung himself right out of the league once he was devoted to it so maybe he's thought about it and reconsidered it. I'd be surprised if either guy is really pushing an approach because it worked (Evans) or was what he followed (Gedman) 30+ years ago. There's got to be more work at organizational consistency than to allow that to happen assuming that those two guys even intended to push their old ways.
I believe there's a quote from Ted WIlliams about watching Dewey's swing making him want to puke.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
From that great article:

GAMMONS: Have any of you thought about playing in the opposite ballpark, Ted and Wade in Yankee Stadium, Don in Fenway? Ted, in 1949 you were almost traded for Joe DiMaggio.


WILLIAMS: I would have liked to have played in the Stadium.

BOGGS: I've thought about it, but I don't even like to go to New York. Fenway's perfect for me.


Uh....Wade.........