That isn't argument, it's abuse. You want room 12A, just along the corridor.
Pete Rose has passed
- Thread starter tims4wins
- Start date
According to some of the Looney Tunes cartoons I've seen, the Pearly Gates are where everyone learns whether we're getting into heaven. Standard procedure.
The hit record is garbage. He needed around 2,600 more at bats than Cobb had just to get roughly 60 more hits. Also, there were occasions when he put himself in the lineup even though there were better guys available while he was in pursuit of the record.
Pete Rose can fuck off.
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I was researching this yesterday and noticed how washed Rose was for his final stretches of a player, he gets historical credit for playing so long but a lot of guys could have kept playing well into their 40s if they were okay with sucking.
I wanted to compare his final years to Cobb, and Cobb was the far superior player. In his final full season in Detroit, 1925 at age 38, Cobb had an OPS of 1.078 and an OPS+ of 171, tops in the AL. Two years later, age 40 and in Philadelphia, he hit .357 with an OPS+ of 134 and was worth 4.4 bWAR. His final season, aged 41, he still hit .323 and had a WAR of 2.0.
Rose had an OPS+ of 86 over his final five seasons and was worth -1.4 bWAR. If Cobb was as shameless as Rose, he would have had almost 5,000 hits.
If Rose had been hit by a bus after the 1981 season, he'd have been a first ballot hall of famer, who would be remembered positively as something like the 'ringz' version of a player like Rod Carew. But that's about it.
Rose clearly compiled hits over his last few seasons to get the record. But it's not fair to dismiss that entirely. I mean guys like Boggs and Gwynn broke down physically in their late 30s. Neither of them could have played until 45. Rose put up 99 OPS+ seasons at age 43 and 44. Not great, but not terrible.
Guy's life could have been much different if he had the character to come clean about his gambling.
Guy's life could have been much different if he had the character to come clean about his gambling.
I guess it is time for someone who has an office adjacent to Pete Rose Way in Downtown Cincinnati to weigh in. He has been outed as a reprehensible human being to be sure. Different crimes (and with respect to probable statutory rape) more serious than Curt Schilling. But as a City you embrace your own and hope that, like the prodigal, they come home. Peter Edward Rose never did. Still, imagine that Tom Brady grew up in Boston's West End, and played on the sandlots of an impoverished section of town. He gets to the big league club, not because he is stronger or faster or more graceful, but because he has grit that embodies the City and a maniacal competitiveness that ends up being his Achilles Heel in the most Greek Tragedian sense of the word. He was not the best player of either the Big Red Machine, or the Phillies world series champs, but he was the spirit animal of both. And then his fall, sudden in the public's eye, but for those closest, slow and predestined, and he was too proud to even think about stopping the descent. He is a deeply flawed human being, that we happen to know about. There are countless others that we do not know about. And there but for the grace...go I. People throughout 99% of America may be celebrating his passing in the same way that they celebrated OJ's, but, here in Cincinnati, there is mourning. I went by Pete Rose Way last night just to see the spectacle, and it was one. But the Cincinnati of Cincinnati mourns the loss of his favorite son before he ever found his way to redemption. And, oh yeah, evidently he was a founding Board member of the organization I now run.
Rose is not the King of selfishly hurting his team at the end of his career. Had Rose batted himself leadoff 150 games a year his last two years he would approach our GOAT of selfishly hurting your team.
Great take from someone on site, I appreciate your insight.
I'd be interested in the stats on the highlighted parts. Even though I know one could never get real numbers on it. I'm not celebrating Rose's death at all, I'm just not sorry he died. I was glad OJ died.
I'm kinda in the "not glad he died, but not sorry he's gone" camp too. On the one hand, he didn't maliciously hurt other people the way Kobe and OJ did. On the other hand, he brought back the specter of perhaps the greatest disrepute that a wonderful sport like baseball can have - the notion that the games aren't on the level, aren't a competition, but are a cruel farce, puppet-mastered by those trying to part fools from an ever-greater share of their money. As such, Rose broke the cardinal sin of professional sports, and moreover, could never get over himself to a sufficient extent to truly seek penance and redress for it. The sports world is all-too-willing to forgive sins, even great sins, from its heroes. Reputations are rehabilitated as quickly as an NFL team needs another player at Position X and, hey, what's a little wife-beating among friends. But we ask one thing: contrition. An admission of responsibility, and an assertion that you'll do better in the future and take some well-trodden steps like therapy or classes or whatever in order to make the assertion seem more sincere.
Rose could not even do that. Not "did not" - could not. No, there was a hole in his soul, one that no amount of money, adulation, attention, or indeed the thrill of gambling, could ever fill. His post-playing career, too, was entirely geared around continuing to get money and attention by the grace of merely being Pete Rose. Doing for himself, not for others. No other party's interests, certainly not that of the sport that brought him fame and fortune, ever really factored in. That particular demon was at the wheel of Rose's actions, ever-present on his shoulder, and brooked no rival until the end of his days.
I never saw Rose play, I wasn't following baseball until his hour of strutting and fretting upon the stage was long over. But I know what damage he caused the sport that I, and most everyone here, love. So I'm neither going to celebrate nor mourn his passing. I'm just glad we no longer have to hear about how every few years, he's appealing to the Commissioner for reinstatement (after having voluntarily agreed to the deal he made in order to stop the investigation), and then all the old-heads trot out the tropes about what a great player he was and "isn't it time we forgave him" and whatever other rationalizations they can hastily assemble. I don't care. I've never cared. There have been great hitters before him and great ones since him. As far as I'm concerned, the only ones who should get special-pleading rights are Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, who truly are central to the story and glory of the sport. Pete Rose was but a (apparently entertaining) side quest in that grand narrative arc... and now it's done.
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Well, he played himself over Perez to selfishly chase the hit title when Perez was hitting much better. Perez was near the end of his career but it might've cost him a year contract or something.
Just statutory rape, being a philandering, deadbeat husband and father, a paternity suit... and so on.
Had not heard about the statutory rape, so thank you. Doesn't change my conclusion though.
"The woman, identified as Jane Doe in 2017, said Rose called her in 1973, when she was 14 or 15, and they began a sexual relationship in Cincinnati that lasted several years. She also alleged Rose met her in locations outside Ohio for sex. Rose’s lawyer has said the woman’s claims are unverified.
Rose acknowledged in 2017 that he did have a relationship with the woman, but he said it started when she was 16. He also said they never had sex outside Ohio. At the time, Rose was in his mid-30s and was married with two children."
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/aug/07/pete-rose-dismisses-questions-over-statutory-claims-in-phillies-return
Rose acknowledged in 2017 that he did have a relationship with the woman, but he said it started when she was 16. He also said they never had sex outside Ohio. At the time, Rose was in his mid-30s and was married with two children."
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/aug/07/pete-rose-dismisses-questions-over-statutory-claims-in-phillies-return
This thread is a great example of why this board is so great. This isn’t an easy one. But people brought facts, their thoughts and reactions and their senses of humor. I learned from this thread, I laughed out loud from posts in this thread and I considered the emotions many of you are describing. Thank you all.
The idea that Pete Rose never maliciously hurt anyone is comical. The evidence to the contrary is staggering.
I’ll be grateful when enough time passes so that we don’t have to listen to or hear about what a gritty (white) ballplayer he was who “played the game the right way” all because he once trucked Ray Fosse in the All Star game and ran to first every time he walked.
Good riddance.
I’ll be grateful when enough time passes so that we don’t have to listen to or hear about what a gritty (white) ballplayer he was who “played the game the right way” all because he once trucked Ray Fosse in the All Star game and ran to first every time he walked.
Good riddance.
Wasn't that for only two WM appearances? I saw the one in Boston where he came out and started running down Boston sports. It was obviously someone "trying" to be a heel in the way that he did it. Ended up with a tombstone from Kane for his troubles. Odd thing was that Kane was the bad guy in his later match with Undertaker and ended up getting cheered. We were obviously easily manipulated.
The next year, Rose dressed up like the San Diego Chicken or some other fowl mascot only to have Kane give him another piledriver.
His HOF plaque should have an asterisk.
can you clarify why you didn’t like Calcaterra’s comments? I thought @ArttyG12 ‘s question was reasonable, he was trying to understand where you’re coming from
His question isn’t reasonable. It’s about the smug “look at me I really did something here” style of the first tweet.
There's a lot of "who cares," "good riddance," "he wasn't that good anyway" going on in this thread. You're not wrong.
I have no idea how old anyone is on this board...maybe you're young enough that you came aware of Rose after-the-fact, so your whole perception of him is as a cheater and scumbag. Or if older, but as a lifelong Sox fan, you didn't much care for him anyway (e.g., '75), and thought he was overrated, then with an adult's perspective your dislike for him was confirmed by his scumbaggery.
But when you're 12, a Reds fan, and you're looking at the back of Rose's card as you chew a stick ofcardboard gum, he was everything you wanted to be. Was he the best player? Even then I loved Bench more, but no one would deny Rose was the beating heart and spirit of that club. WAR? OPS+ What the heck is that? As a kid, it's all perception, easy averages, and counting stats, the stuff on the back of the card. His fall from Grace was shattering for those of us who grew up admiring him.
Take any of the greats from the Sox 2004 team who you admired (maybe you were a kid then?)...then imagine if you discovered that player was a turd of a man. It hurts, dammit!
Watching him on the HBO documentary is painful. What a petty, small, shadow of his former greatness he became. It's almost tragic in the classical sense: a King falls because of a self-inflicted disease, such that the disease prevents him from seeking the cure he desperately needs.
I don't grieve losing him. The Rose I loved died 35 years ago. But I still grieve my lost youthful naivete.
I have no idea how old anyone is on this board...maybe you're young enough that you came aware of Rose after-the-fact, so your whole perception of him is as a cheater and scumbag. Or if older, but as a lifelong Sox fan, you didn't much care for him anyway (e.g., '75), and thought he was overrated, then with an adult's perspective your dislike for him was confirmed by his scumbaggery.
But when you're 12, a Reds fan, and you're looking at the back of Rose's card as you chew a stick of
Take any of the greats from the Sox 2004 team who you admired (maybe you were a kid then?)...then imagine if you discovered that player was a turd of a man. It hurts, dammit!
Watching him on the HBO documentary is painful. What a petty, small, shadow of his former greatness he became. It's almost tragic in the classical sense: a King falls because of a self-inflicted disease, such that the disease prevents him from seeking the cure he desperately needs.
I don't grieve losing him. The Rose I loved died 35 years ago. But I still grieve my lost youthful naivete.
If had a public following, I wouldn't say what Calcaterra did simply out of respect for others' feelings, but I agree with him 100%. I also won't be watching any documentaries or reading any books that people have suggested in this thread, because I have no interest devoting that much time focused on a waste of a human being.
What a beautiful post. Thank you for sharing, and sorry he turned out to be a shithead.
Yeah, that is a good post. 11 year old me, hated Pete Rose, Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench. One of my best pals growing up went into the 1975 postseason as an A’s fan (he loved Vida Blue) and came out of it a Reds fan, (Joe Morgan was his guy). Years later he moved from the JoJo Celtics to the Magic Lakers so the pattern never changed. RIP Terry. @sox75, BoSox would have won that series had Jim Ed played.
Anyway, pre SiriusXM I listened to AM sports radio anywhere I could pick it up on the backroads of Montana. There was a show that I could pick up in a few towns on Sporting News Radio. This a-hole, Peter Brown, was hosting and at one point had been a beat guy for some team. He’s doing a Reds game and Rose kinda knew who he was. Pete stopped him on the field one day to see if he knew the score of the Montana-Montana State basketball game. Rose had a serious gambling problem.
Anyway, pre SiriusXM I listened to AM sports radio anywhere I could pick it up on the backroads of Montana. There was a show that I could pick up in a few towns on Sporting News Radio. This a-hole, Peter Brown, was hosting and at one point had been a beat guy for some team. He’s doing a Reds game and Rose kinda knew who he was. Pete stopped him on the field one day to see if he knew the score of the Montana-Montana State basketball game. Rose had a serious gambling problem.
That is the essence of my previous post, and it is the essence of what I witnessed on Pete Rose Way the other night. If you look at the Big Red Machine, Bench was the superstar and Joe Morgan was the best player. At the end George Foster was the lumber, but when they pass (or passed in the case of Little Joe), the Queen City did not react in this way. If the unimaginable happens and Joe Burrow wins 3-5 super bowls, when he passes, Cincinnati will not react this way. He is our native son, the son you wanted to live up to his potential and live a life of greatness and service, but instead he gets caught up in a drug addiction while working in a leadership position at P&G and does time. Doesn't make you love him any less, you just grieve for the opportunity cost of a life that derails and takes out a whole bunch of innocent people along the way.
You're right, he was too smug when saying not to be nostalgic about the rapist. It was very bad and should make you want to do violence.
I'm sure there's a lot of people my age (37) who absolutely know what that first part is like.
The last sentence is very spot on. I was telling my brother the other day that I hate knowing so much about our favourite athletes. I miss not knowing whether they were total morons or scumbags.
If you look at the end of what you quoted, he clarified he was referring to the first tweet, which certainly does come off as smug and self important.
Great post. I wasn't a kid in 2004, but unfortunately this has already happened to me with Schilling.
The worst part of the betting, even if it was only on his team to win, was the potential impact it could have on the health of his pitching staff. I doubt there's a way to truly prove if he ever ended anyone's career this way, but you know this scumbag had no concerns for some kid reliever's welfare if he needed that kid's arm to get right with his bookie that night. That's just inhuman.