Penn State AD and Sandusky Charged

GBrushTWood

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Whatever failings that may have happened at Penn State, whatever conclusions about my or others' conduct you may wish to draw from a fair view of the allegations, it is inarguable that these actions had nothing to do with this last team or any of the hundreds of prior graduates of the “Grand Experiment.”
Penn Staters across the globe should feel no shame in saying “We are…Penn State.” This is a great University with one of the best academic performing football programs in major college athletics. Those are facts — and nothing that has been alleged changes them.
http://pennstate.scout.com/2/1201534.html (via Sara Ganim)
They forgot to include the real photo of the guy that wrote this.


After the Freeh report is released tomorrow, it should be amusing to watch the ostriches continue to bury their head in the sand though.
 

SumnerH

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Color me unsurprised.

The thing is, there are plenty of legitimate examples that could support a version of his general thesis. I can't remember names of the top of my head, but there's the high school athlete with the girl a year younger that ESPN profiled a little while back, the guy who just got released from prison and got NFL tryouts, and even the Duke lacrosse team. But using this example to make the point is just utterly tone-deaf.
I think the high school player you're thinking of is Marcus Dixon. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Dixon#section_4

 

sfip

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I'll be too busy at work today to follow it live, but the press conference about the Freeh report will be across the street from where I work. Yes in Philly, not near State College.
 

Average Reds

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I'll be too busy at work today to follow it live, but the press conference about the Freeh report will be across the street from where I work. Yes in Philly, not near State College.
Makes a lot of sense that they are doing the press conference in Philly.

- Ensures more coverage.
- Reinforces the perception that this is not something coming from the BoT.

After thinking about it for a day, I also feel compelled to point out that Paterno's contention that the Sandusky case was not a "football scandal" is 100% accurate. Of course, I don't think Joe really thought through what that means in this case.
 

canderson

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Makes a lot of sense that they are doing the press conference in Philly.

- Ensures more coverage.
- Reinforces the perception that this is not something coming from the BoT.

After thinking about it for a day, I also feel compelled to point out that Paterno's contention that the Sandusky case was not a "football scandal" is 100% accurate. Of course, I don't think Joe really thought through what that means in this case.
Yeah, not having it n State College is the best decision I've seen yet.

And agree completely on your last statement. Paterno I truly believe didn't grasp the seriousness of this case. Not an excuse, but he was for all intent and purposes an ostrich in the sand on this.

Haven't read the entire report and won't get to until late tonight. I can now say what was pissing me off the other day: McQuery asked to speak to the investigators, from everything I can tell they never did allow him to speak.

And I have MAJOR issues with Schultz bowing to Paterno here. I know everyone did one very issue (like when they told him to retire and he slammed the door in their faces). This was not a football incident and by no means should anything Paterno ever said mattered. Fuck 'em all.

I still want to know: At what point do they tear down Paterno's statue?
 

Average Reds

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Reading through the executive summary of the report at the link provided by Ananias, I would say that it's not fair to characterize it as the whitewash that Canderson feared.

The pdf file appears to be "locked" in the sense that it won't let me cut and paste, but here are some key findings from the executive summary:
  • A near-total lack of empathy for the victims of abuse from the top leadership at PSU. (Identified as Spanier, Schultz, Curley, Paterno.)
  • A failure by the Board to exercise its oversight responsibilities in 1998 and 2001.
  • A failure by the Board to demand information in 2011 from Spanier about the ongoing investigation and a subsequent failure to adequately prepare for the aftermath of the indictments.
  • A President who discouraged discussion and dissent.
  • Lack of institutional understanding of child abuse issues and the schools responsibilities under the Clery Act.
  • A decision by Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz to allow Sandusky to retire in 1999 rather than be branded as a suspected child predator.
  • A football program that was completely ignorant of their legal responsibilities under the Clery Act.
  • A culture of reverence for football ingrained at all levels of the institution.
Should make for fun reading later.
 

The Napkin

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right here
One of my high school freinds updated her facebook page to this
That's the kind of mindset these people have. JoePa is the real victim here after all.
I replied:
"In order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at the university -- Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley -- repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse," the report said.
Ain't no way we're still FB friends by the end of the day. No big loss.
 

JBill

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The report has evidence in the form of emails from Curley to Schultz that Paterno knew about and was kept updated on the 1998 investigation. Paterno denied knowing about 1998 under oath to the grand jury.
 

natpastime162

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One of my high school freinds updated her facebook page to this
That's the kind of mindset these people have. JoePa is the real victim here after all.
I replied:
"In order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at the university -- Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley -- repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse," the report said.
Ain't no way we're still FB friends by the end of the day. No big loss.
I don't know where you find these people. I live in PA and have many friends who attended PSU/are on facebook. I have yet to see somebody defend the Spanier, Schultz, Paterno, or Curley.

Then again, maybe they are just self-aware enough to keep their mouth shut, but hopefully not.

I'll also echo Red and Canderson's point that Paterno simply did not comprehend the seriousness of child abuse. Not an excuse, the statue still needs to go.
 

DJnVa

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I'll also echo Red and Canderson's point that Paterno simply did not comprehend the seriousness of child abuse. .
Is there a level where child abuse rises from "not serious" to "serious enough to act"? I don't get that excuse. Not at all.
 

Average Reds

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The report has evidence in the form of emails from Curley to Schultz that Paterno knew about and was kept updated on the 1998 investigation. Paterno denied knowing about 1998 under oath to the grand jury.
Too bad reanimation is not possible.

Fortunately, we don't have that problem with Spanier, who denied any specific knowledge of the 2001 incident in his testimony. (Not sure what he said about 1998.) He's still among the living, which means that he should soon be among the indicted.
 

wibi

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What NCAA regs will the NCAA cite for crushing the program? A generic "lack of institutional control"?
I'd be real surprised if there isnt a "conduct detrimental to the NCAA" rule somewhere in the rule set.
 

canderson

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I expect the NCAA penalties to be the most severe against a program since SMU's death penalty.
It will be interesting. Sandusky wasn't an employee after 1998, the 1998 investigation led to no charges by the DA. There was no criminal record made to HR though, which is again in the admin.

Do they take down a program that had nothing to do with three administrators and a dead coach attempting to sweep away bad news?

The DoE seems like the better hammer-down agency.
 

Ananias

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I'd be real surprised if there isnt a "conduct detrimental to the NCAA" rule somewhere in the rule set.
this is kind of old at this point (from before Paterno died) but has some thoughts in that direction.

http://outkickthecoverage.com/ncaa-has-authority-to-give-penn-state-death-penalty.php
 

natpastime162

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Is there a level where child abuse rises from "not serious" to "serious enough to act"? I don't get that excuse. Not at all.
It's not a freaking excuse!!!

Believe it or not, there are people in your own town/city/village who don't view child molesters as anything other than the weird guy/pariah who should be avoided. Patrice O'Neal (I think it was him, it was on Opie & Anthony) told a story about somebody who asked to see his dick (when he was a kid). He told some people, they kicked his ass, but also never told the authorities. Hell, "prior to 1994 few states required convicted sex offenders to register their addresses with local law enforcement" for fucks sake.

In other news, I waited for the report to make a final determination. Joe Paterno is now dead to me.
 

Average Reds

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I'll also echo Red and Canderson's point that Paterno simply did not comprehend the seriousness of child abuse. Not an excuse, the statue still needs to go.
To be clear, this was not what I was saying in my comments.

My comments were that Paterno was right in saying that this was not a football scandal, because it's much bigger. The football program was merely the catalyst that unleashed the moral depravity below the surface of the PSU culture.
 

natpastime162

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To be clear, this was not what I was saying in my comments.

My comments were that Paterno was right in saying that this was not a football scandal, because it's much bigger. The football program was merely the catalyst that unleashed the moral depravity below the surface of the PSU culture.
Oh, sorry about that.
 

wibi

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this is kind of old at this point (from before Paterno died) but has some thoughts in that direction.

http://outkickthecoverage.com/ncaa-has-authority-to-give-penn-state-death-penalty.php
Thanks

I knew someone had already done this analysis but the link you posted pretty much details all the various "detrimental conduct" areas where the NCAA can bring the hammer from
 
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Yeah, not having it n State College is the best decision I've seen yet.

And agree completely on your last statement. Paterno I truly believe didn't grasp the seriousness of this case. Not an excuse, but he was for all intent and purposes an ostrich in the sand on this.

Haven't read the entire report and won't get to until late tonight. I can now say what was pissing me off the other day: McQuery asked to speak to the investigators, from everything I can tell they never did allow him to speak.

And I have MAJOR issues with Schultz bowing to Paterno here. I know everyone did one very issue (like when they told him to retire and he slammed the door in their faces). This was not a football incident and by no means should anything Paterno ever said mattered. Fuck 'em all.

I still want to know: At what point do they tear down Paterno's statue?
The report says at the request of the AG, they did not interview McQueary and UPolice Chief Tom Harmon. The report said they were able to corroborate info about what these two said/did via interviews, emails, documents and court testimonies, IOW, it wasn't necessary to talk to them. Nothing different re McQueary's story in this than what we already heard before. Harmon is talked about in an email as telling U officials he would not create a crime log entry re the1998 police inquiry into Sandusky as a courtesy to them. He justified it by saying he could claim there wasn't enough evidence (even though Sandusky admitted to police that he had done this kind of thing before with other kids.)

Not finished, but the section about changing the PSU culture strikes me as the heart of this whole shitshow. It'll never happen, unfortunately -- not when you have so many people overly invested in the reflective glory and false bonhomie of a football team. If you have a life and a healthy self-esteem based on your own achievements, you don't need to bask in the success of others.
 

Dehere

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Is there a level where child abuse rises from "not serious" to "serious enough to act"? I don't get that excuse. Not at all.
An explanation isn't necessarily the same as an excuse. I think there's a lot to the idea that Paterno's age, combined with the bubble that he lived in for decades, made it possible for him to be oblivious to the seriousness of the matter. That doesn't in any way excuse his choices, but it does provide a certain logic to answer the question of how a man could be so decent and honorable in some ways and yet be a complete moral failure in a more significant circumstance.
 

wibi

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An explanation isn't necessarily the same as an excuse. I think there's a lot to the idea that Paterno's age, combined with the bubble that he lived in for decades, made it possible for him to be oblivious to the seriousness of the matter. That doesn't in any way excuse his choices, but it does provide a certain logic to answer the question of how a man could be so decent and honorable in some ways and yet be a complete moral failure in a more significant circumstance.
I cant see how someone could be considered decent and honorable, in any way, if they consciously make some of the decisions the report says JoePa did.
 

fairlee76

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I'll also echo Red and Canderson's point that Paterno simply did not comprehend the seriousness of child abuse. Not an excuse, the statue still needs to go.
Oh, I think Paterno absolutely comprehended the seriousness of child sexual abuse and went out of his way to participate in the cover up to protect the PSU brand and his legacy.
 

eccha

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I expect the NCAA penalties to be the most severe against a program since SMU's death penalty.
I would hope so. The NCAA gives stiff penalties when a player gives away a ticket for a tatoo! This is one of the most discusting things that I can imagine. I thought Joepa was beyond reproach...guess not...
 

JBill

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An explanation isn't necessarily the same as an excuse. I think there's a lot to the idea that Paterno's age, combined with the bubble that he lived in for decades, made it possible for him to be oblivious to the seriousness of the matter. That doesn't in any way excuse his choices, but it does provide a certain logic to answer the question of how a man could be so decent and honorable in some ways and yet be a complete moral failure in a more significant circumstance.
The problem with this for me is Curley says in his email to Spanier in 2001 that after thinking it over and after talking to Paterno, he's changed his mind about going to child welfare authorities and reporting the shower incident. And Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation, and he lied to the grand jury about it.

All of this, to me, points away from Paterno not comprehending the seriousness of the situation. I think he understood it all pretty well.
 

Dehere

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I cant see how someone could be considered decent and honorable, in any way, if they consciously make some of the decisions the report says JoePa did.
Would you allow that Thomas Jefferson, a slaveholder, was in other important respects decent and honorable?

How about the millions of members of what we now call the Greatest Generation who were completely on the wrong side of the Civil Rights Movement?

It's the collateral damage of progress. Attitudes that were not uncommon in one era look abhorrent through the lens of history as society's view of a subject evolves. Again, like so many others in this thread I feel compelled to say I'm not excusing Paterno. His legacy is rightly in tatters. But it's possible to look at how we got here and see him as something more nuanced than just plain evil.
 

mauf

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Would you allow that Thomas Jefferson, a slaveholder, was in other important respects decent and honorable?

How about the millions of members of what we now call the Greatest Generation who were completely on the wrong side of the Civil Rights Movement?

It's the collateral damage of progress. Attitudes that were not uncommon in one era look abhorrent through the lens of history as society's view of a subject evolves. Again, like so many others in this thread I feel compelled to say I'm not excusing Paterno. His legacy is rightly in tatters. But it's possible to look at how we got here and see him as something more nuanced than just plain evil.
This is why Posnanski's book on Paterno has the potential to be so good, providing he steers clear of hagiography and addresses this nasty stuff head-on.

I'm not sure Paterno belongs in the same "collateral damage of progress" category as your other examples, but I agree that there's nuance in play here. Reall, it's the stuff of Greek tragedy. If these events occurred at UNLV under Jerry Tarkanian's watch, we would be much less interested.
 

mauf

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Lack of institutional control, ethics violations, etc. There are a ton of NCAA violations. I expect the hammer to come down on them. Look at what the Baylor basketball team went through if you want an example.
Baylor was guilty of garden-variety NCAA violations. They got punished more harshly because those allegations emerged in the context of a murder investigation, with the suggestion that some Baylor officials may have attempted to impede that investigation to cover up their venial competition-related sins.

Morally, the PSU scandal is far worse -- because while the wrongdoing at Baylor didn't lead to Patrick Dennehy's murder (except to the extent he would've had to leave school if the rules had been followed), the wrongdoing at PSU directly facilitated the victimization of children. If there were garden-variety NCAA violations uncovered in the process of investigating the Sandusky scandal, however tangentially related those violations might be to the scandal, I would expect the NCAA to come down on PSU like a ton of bricks. In the absence of such violations, however, a charge for lack of institutional control would be unprecedented. I suspect a lot of other member institutions would be loathe to set a precedent that allows NCAA staff to pass judgment on their administration in ways that are only tangentially related to intercollegiate athletics.
 

DJnVa

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It's not a freaking excuse!!!
It's actually one definition of excuse.

A reason or explanation put forward to defend or justify a fault or offense.

He didn't comprehend the seriousness. That's justifying why he didn't act. (To be clear, I understand that YOU are not justifying it. He was.) Of course, him not comprehending the seriousness makes you wonder why he was so involved.

JoePa is dead to me
He's dead to everyone.
 

wibi

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Would you allow that Thomas Jefferson, a slaveholder, was in other important respects decent and honorable?

How about the millions of members of what we now call the Greatest Generation who were completely on the wrong side of the Civil Rights Movement?

It's the collateral damage of progress. Attitudes that were not uncommon in one era look abhorrent through the lens of history as society's view of a subject evolves. Again, like so many others in this thread I feel compelled to say I'm not excusing Paterno. His legacy is rightly in tatters. But it's possible to look at how we got here and see him as something more nuanced than just plain evil.
When Jefferson owned slaves it was legal and considered socially acceptable. When the "Greatest Generation" (which label I disagree vehemently) was openly racist it was socially acceptable and semi-legal.

Pedophilia has never been socially acceptable so I cant see how the comparison makes sense. If pedophilia had been socially acceptable during the the period of cover up I might be willing to buy your argument but there has never been a point in the history of the US where being a kiddy diddler has been acceptable.
 

teddykgb

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Would you allow that Thomas Jefferson, a slaveholder, was in other important respects decent and honorable?

How about the millions of members of what we now call the Greatest Generation who were completely on the wrong side of the Civil Rights Movement?

It's the collateral damage of progress. Attitudes that were not uncommon in one era look abhorrent through the lens of history as society's view of a subject evolves. Again, like so many others in this thread I feel compelled to say I'm not excusing Paterno. His legacy is rightly in tatters. But it's possible to look at how we got here and see him as something more nuanced than just plain evil.
I expect that you'll get a lot of grief for this post. I want to make sure I applaud it. It's an incredibly important perspective to have today.

Joe Paterno's legacy will be and should be in tatters. With the benefit of hindsight, all of this is going to be abhorrent. If we're seriously and honestly going to try to understand how this happened and put ourselves in the minds and situations of these people at the time they had to act, then we can't generalize that each and every person's appropriate actions were obvious at the time and the failure to do so is part of some evil conspiracy to inflict damage upon the world. The truth is always in the middle. As much damage as all these PSU alums are doing to their reputation with the constant support of PSU and Paterno, I think the desire to label all of these people as pure evil is equally absurd. Much like Thomas Jefferson or some of our grandfathers and great grandfathers, it is possible for people to be both good and bad, or, maybe more appropriately, evolutionary. That the entire institution wasn't able to evolve fast enough in the face of the other scandals going on at the time is a huge problem, and one that will be and should be paid for. But dissecting the information after the fact to make sweeping generalizations about these men in either direction is probably not accomplishing a lot. Except for Sandusky, who is without a doubt a monster.

I guess to sum it up, or maybe say it in a better way. I'm not entirely surprised that a bunch of old men didn't cope with this seemingly outlier and bizarre situation. I wouldn't even be shocked if they believed the story Sandusky told them because they "knew him" and knew he wasn't like that. Even with evidence and investigations and allegations, people defer to their own judgment and their own experiences. Of course, all of this was disastrously wrong. But as a society we sort of do ourselves a disservice when we don't look to honestly examine how this could have happened and instead try to just bundle these people up as a bunch of lunatics.

edit: I think I veered off point to one extent when I started analyzing the facts of this case. With a little time, I'll be able to read the report, because the facts in this instance may reveal that there was just a massive cover up orchestrated by all these fools. So if you read my post and crawled out of your skin because you've read the report and the details more thoroughly than I to this point, then I get where you're coming from.
 

DJnVa

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Lack of institutional control, ethics violations, etc. There are a ton of NCAA violations. I expect the hammer to come down on them. Look at what the Baylor basketball team went through if you want an example.
Yeah, but (I'd have to find the posts in here) there were thoughts the Baylor cover-up tied more directly into the basketball program. I was more playing devil's advocate.

I'm not disputing what you say. I hope they bring the hammer down.
 

bankshot1

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Lack of institutional control, ethics violations, etc. There are a ton of NCAA violations. I expect the hammer to come down on them. Look at what the Baylor basketball team went through if you want an example.
I'm not a lawyer, but if as Freeh report contends, that high-ranking PSU official (ie Penn St) cover-upped the child-abuse (rape) for years, to protect the progam, why crimnal charges could not be included in litany of other charges that PSU will face.
 

DJnVa

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This is why Posnanski's book on Paterno has the potential to be so good, providing he steers clear of hagiography and addresses this nasty stuff head-on.
That's interesting, because in the Posnanski thread in another forum, there's talk that the book should be spiked.
 

mauf

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Haven't read the entire report and won't get to until late tonight. I can now say what was pissing me off the other day: McQuery asked to speak to the investigators, from everything I can tell they never did allow him to speak.
Too bad you weren't able to share this. The SoSH lawyers probably would have set your mind at ease -- it is absolutely not a surprise that prosecutors asked Freeh not to interview McQueary, given the importance of his testimony to the pending charges against Curley and Schultz.

And you must be happy to be wrong -- from what I've read so far, the report is unsparing in its treatment of the BoT.
 

Ananias

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When Jefferson owned slaves it was legal and considered socially acceptable. When the "Greatest Generation" (which label I disagree vehemently) was openly racist it was socially acceptable and semi-legal.

Pedophilia has never been socially acceptable so I cant see how the comparison makes sense. If pedophilia had been socially acceptable during the the period of cover up I might be willing to buy your argument but there has never been a point in the history of the US where being a kiddy diddler has been acceptable.
There's acceptable and there's acceptable. No, pedophilia has never been lauded as a pillar of society, but untill the late 1970s it was not something that was usually talked about publically. The notion that child pornography is illegal wasn't even completely clarified until 1977. Before that, it was seen as creepy and unwholesome but also was considered the kind of thing that not much could be done about. In short, being a pedophile was not socially acceptable -- but choosing to remain silent about a colleague's pedophilia WAS socially acceptable. It is hard for me to comprehend as well, but Paterno grew up in a time when turning your back and hoping it didn't happen again is what you did. The perpetrator was someone you kept your own kids from, but you didn't make a deal about it. That kind of silence was not only acceptable, it was expected. Paterno showed he was a coward by not breaking the cycle, but it was no different than what many men of his generation would have done.
 

wibi

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There's acceptable and there's acceptable. No, pedophilia has never been lauded as a pillar of society, but untill the late 1970s it was not something that was usually talked about publically. The notion that child pornography is illegal wasn't even completely clarified until 1977. Before that, it was seen as creepy and unwholesome but also was considered the kind of thing that not much could be done about. In short, being a pedophile was not socially acceptable -- but choosing to remain silent about a colleague's pedophilia WAS socially acceptable. It is hard for me to comprehend as well, but Paterno grew up in a time when turning your back and hoping it didn't happen again is what you did. The perpetrator was someone you kept your own kids from, but you didn't make a deal about it. That kind of silence was not only acceptable, it was expected. Paterno showed he was a coward by not breaking the cycle, but it was no different than what many men of his generation would have done.
Change JoePa out for your father and Sandusky for your uncle and one of the kids for your little brother. Would you still think the same way on this?

Its not that JoePa didnt do anything that gets me but what appears to be an active acknowledgement that Sandusky's actions, starting in 1994, were inproper and illegal and yet it was waived off and covered up rather than getting authorities involved. That single action is where I lost all respect for JoePa as a man and a leader. I buy the arguments that in the late 70s and early 80s there was some social ambiguity but by the early 90s the stance on pedophilia was pretty clear from a legal standpoint.
 

Corsi

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Matt Millen today:


"In terms of the program itself, this was a very pristine program," Millen said on SportsCenter, to which I immediately blurted from my couch, "THE HELL IT WAS!" There is no form or fashion to call the Penn State program "pristine" after the findings of this report.

To make it worse, Millen went so far as to apparently allege Paterno's legacy shouldn't be tarnished, saying, "He made a mistake. Does that discount all the positives he did over 50 years?"
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/7/12/3154762/matt-millen-joe-paterno-espn-sportscenter-free-report
 

Ananias

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Change JoePa out for your father and Sandusky for your uncle and one of the kids for your little brother. Would you still think the same way on this?
yes. and frankly, that's a stupid thing to say. I gave a historical summary. I didn't say any of it made me happy.
 

Corsi

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There's acceptable and there's acceptable. No, pedophilia has never been lauded as a pillar of society, but untill the late 1970s it was not something that was usually talked about publically. The notion that child pornography is illegal wasn't even completely clarified until 1977. Before that, it was seen as creepy and unwholesome but also was considered the kind of thing that not much could be done about. In short, being a pedophile was not socially acceptable -- but choosing to remain silent about a colleague's pedophilia WAS socially acceptable. It is hard for me to comprehend as well, but Paterno grew up in a time when turning your back and hoping it didn't happen again is what you did. The perpetrator was someone you kept your own kids from, but you didn't make a deal about it. That kind of silence was not only acceptable, it was expected. Paterno showed he was a coward by not breaking the cycle, but it was no different than what many men of his generation would have done.
Except these incidents took place in the late 90s, not the 70s.