This is what really bugs me about McQueary...he saw Sandusky hundreds of times after he saw him rape a boy. I hope they investigate this further
Penn State AD and Sandusky Charged
- Thread starter Pesky Pole
- Start date
Here, hopefully not. But I suspect they still exist in happy valley and other places.
Good grief the devil other son Phil Knight is still probably speaking somewhere about his greatness, and how this is all the media's fault
So in tomorrow's Harrisburg Patriot-News David Jones, one of the PSU beat's most famous and long-time columnists, pens a direct assault on Paterno. Well worth your few minutes to read. Here are a few gems:
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/06/david_jones_joe_paterno_fans_m.html
The football program deserves a permanent NCAA " death penalty." Tske away the thing they cared about more than the truth.
The question is how the NCAA views this. If you are looking at a complete lack of institutional control, this is as prime an example as you will ever see. My hope is that the NCAA does not view this as not effecting competitive balance (therefore outside their domain). The fact is that the e-mails indicate an attempt to cover this scandal from Spanier all the way down to the AD and Paterno in order to protect the reputation and integrity of the football program. Any recruit considering coming to PSU would like run the other way if knowledge of the program protecting a (now convicted) pedophile, thus effecting the ability of the program to compete. Covering up a felony certainly qualifies as a reason to shut down this program. The coaches (mainly Paterno) and the administration could have saved several victims from Sandusky's abuse and chose not to so to protect a FOOTBALL PROGRAM!! Unreal.
It's not going to happen. The NCAA just doesn't work that way.
To be "fair", had they gone to the cops in 2001 there's no guarantee that it would have resulted in anything, esp since they still haven't found the victim involved.The jury didn't exactly believe McQuery, why should they have?
Their actions still don't make any sense.
To be "fair", had they gone to the cops in 2001 there's no guarantee that it would have resulted in anything, esp since they still haven't found the victim involved.The jury didn't exactly believe McQuery, why should they have?
Their actions still don't make any sense.
The rub is these emails will show they covered up student athlete punishment. Directly led by Spanier himself, they worked together to hide problem kids and bypass the three NCAA compliance officers* they had on staff. This could spur NCAA involvement IMO moreso than the Sandusky issue.
*By comparison many major programs have more than 30 compliance officers
*By comparison many major programs have more than 30 compliance officers
The above is just plain wrong. The jury acquitted on the charge of involuntary deviate sexual intercourse with respect to Victim 2 (the incident witnessed by McQueary). They did so because McQueary did not testify to actually observing anal penetration. The jury DID convict on four other counts regarding Victim 2 (Indecent assault, unlawful contact with minors, corruption of minors, and endangering the welfare of children). So, contrary to what was stated, the jury most definitely believed the entirety of McQueary's story - they just didn't make a leap of logic that what McQueary described amounted to actual penetration, beyond a reasonable doubt.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/06/jerry_sandusky_verdict_complet.html
If a coach was hired, retained or promoted in the interest of keeping secret potentially criminal activity, the NCAA can certainly impose penalties. On top of the allegations of covering up punishable athlete activity, the NCAA will probably rain hell on them. They won't do the death penalty, because they view the one instance they used the death penalty as a mistake, but it will be everything but. Probably no post-season for 2 years, no-wait transfers for all underclassmen, three fewer coaches, 5-10 fewer scholarships for 3 years, maybe no non-conference or no home non-conference games for a year (which is a huge penalty $$-wise). The last would be unprecedented in football but they used it in basketball with Baylor.
If you ever want to feel like you need a shower from reading an article on the internet, check out this: http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2012/7/1/3129423/its-time-to-dump-on-joe-again
Opening line?
Opening line?
Of course. But things have gotten so bad, the facts so irrefutable, that they know enough to stay in hiding.
It'll be released all at once. These reports so far have been leaks by what's widely assumed PSU itself (Friday night at 10 p.m.? Yeah, OK) to "soften" whatever hit the report manifests once available.
It was originally due to come out in early August but I'm hearing from pretty reliable sources it'll be closer to mid July.
Eh, the NCAA is too busy figuring out if unpaid poor kids from the ghetto are selling their practice jerseys to pay for tattoos to bother with something like this.
This bolded part would be very hard to prove, but if it could be shown that this happened, then yes, the NCAA would most certainly step in and the parallels to Baylor are pretty compelling.
I think we all suspected that the two administrators charged with failure to report and perjury were covering for President Spanier, and if the reports of emails are correct, it's pretty obvious that Spanier will eventually face perjury charges himself. With the same caveat, it's also fairly obvious that his original statement expressing support for the two administrators was something crafted back in 2001 when they decided not to report Sandusky to the authorities. The "tell" was the language designed to position this as being about a "former university employee" as a way of implying that the legal responsibility to report his behavior was not theirs. He deserves his fate.
As for Paterno, I don't think anyone will be shocked if we find out that he was directing many of the activities here. And if/when we do, whatever happens to his legacy will be exactly what should happen to it.
Wouldn't the statute of limitations bar any NCAA enforcement action against PSU based on these latest revelations?
This article notes, in passing, that Paterno didn't use e-mail. Assuming those e-mails are the principal new source of information unearthed by the Freeh investigation, the report is unlikely to provide smoking-gun proof of Paterno's complicity in the cover-up. Perhaps it will turn up hard proof that Paterno knew of the 1998 investigation, which would certainly cast his 2001 inaction in a different light, but that won't be enough to puncture the denial of Paterno's most ardent apologists.
This article notes, in passing, that Paterno didn't use e-mail. Assuming those e-mails are the principal new source of information unearthed by the Freeh investigation, the report is unlikely to provide smoking-gun proof of Paterno's complicity in the cover-up. Perhaps it will turn up hard proof that Paterno knew of the 1998 investigation, which would certainly cast his 2001 inaction in a different light, but that won't be enough to puncture the denial of Paterno's most ardent apologists.
Yep.
And at this point, can't they just say fuck it and kill this whole program?
Screw statute of limitations, the NCAA has done more for less. The whole freaking football program covered really, really illegal shit up so that they could continue to play. So take away their ability to play.
God, every time I enter this forum I feel the need to bathe in penicillin.
Per Dan Wertz at Yahoo! Sports
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-role-jerry-sandusky-coverup-grows.html
The whole thing is worth a read--and it's really quite damning.
That is an excellent article.
I basically agree with Wetzel's take. He points to e-mails from 2001 that seem to show that Spanier, Schultz, and Curley knew about the 1998 investigation of Sandusky. Wetzel infers that Paterno must have known also. If you make that inference, you can't defend Paterno -- even the most star-struck Paterno partisan couldn't defend his inaction in 2001 if he knew about 1998. Unfortunately, you're not going to change the partisans' minds by inviting them to make an inference -- only smoking-gun proof will do that. I'm not optimistic the Freeh report will provide such proof.
The circumstantial evidence that points to Paterno's knowledge of the 1998 investigation is pretty significant.
From an Esquire article posted upthread:
Combine this with what we're learning from the emails that are being leaked, and it takes a significant act of will to believe that Paterno did not know about the 1998 investigation and that it wasn't a factor on Sandusky's retirement.
The depressing reality is that this scandal is not as bad as many people thought it might be - it's far worse. And it's now clear that Paterno, Spanier, Curley, Schultz and others covered up Sandusky's activities for the most pathetic reason possible: to save their jobs.
Still no word on whether investigators have found evidence that Mike McQueary was named a coach in order to buy his silence, but given what we are learning and how inexplicable his behavior was over the years, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.
The whole thing makes me sick.
From an Esquire article posted upthread:
Combine this with what we're learning from the emails that are being leaked, and it takes a significant act of will to believe that Paterno did not know about the 1998 investigation and that it wasn't a factor on Sandusky's retirement.
The depressing reality is that this scandal is not as bad as many people thought it might be - it's far worse. And it's now clear that Paterno, Spanier, Curley, Schultz and others covered up Sandusky's activities for the most pathetic reason possible: to save their jobs.
Still no word on whether investigators have found evidence that Mike McQueary was named a coach in order to buy his silence, but given what we are learning and how inexplicable his behavior was over the years, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.
The whole thing makes me sick.
If the NCAA wants to hit PSU, it can certainly make a case that the "statute of limitations" regulation is inapplicable here.
If Paterno was part of this coverup, his family isn't buying it and wants to burn the city down proving their beliefs. Tonight they released a statement calling for PA's Attorney General to release every email and record from their investigation.
Their statement:
Their statement:
I have no dog in this fight, and could completely see a scenario where Paterno was complicit in some sort of coverup, but that statement is completely fair IMO. This really resonated with me:
They could give Penn State the death penalty here and I wouldn't give a flying fuck. But I gotta tell ya, these "leaks", and any in the past similar, always scream "AGENDA!!!" to me.
These are selective leaks in a process that should not be leaking things. Because of that I assume there is an agenda. Otherwise why selectively leak material?
You're assuming that the leaked emails are selected based on an agenda. Another possibility is that these are the only emails that exist or have been discovered related to this subject. Another possibility is that these emails were selectively leaked because they are the only emails of any substance. The authors were very general - for example, not identifying Sandusky by name or specifying the criminal act. They obviously knew it was sensitive information and it was in their best interest to keep the paper trail light.
We won't really know until the full report comes out.
Regarding the Paterno family's public call for full disclosure, it is a fair request, and it certainly could be a noble one. On the other hand, if reports are true that Paterno did not use email (and I find it very easy to believe that a 70 year-old man wasn't current on the use of technology), then they don't exactly have too much to worry about, do they? Paterno is never going to be buried by his own words unless there are Post-it notes or audio recordings hanging around.
I think what canderson said above makes the most sense- the school is leaking the most damaging parts of the Freeh investigation, on a Friday night before a holiday (doubtful we will get anything more on point than emails from Penn State administrators that approved not going to child welfare authorities and acknowledging potential liability for failing to report) to soften the blow when the actual report is released.
The school I imagine would prefer to take the hits now and do everything in their power to get the glare off them before the new school year starts. It makes a lot more sense than some orchestrated attack on dead Paterno, but it does make for a nice rallying cry for the Paterno family to combat the bad press. They have to say something.
There is no question that there is an agenda at work, and that agenda is not kind to the interests of Joe Paterno. Of course, it doesn't necessarily follow that the information we are seeing or the inference we are drawing from that information is false.
There's another factor at work here, and I want to comment on this for a bit. Joe Paterno has/had such a reputation for being an upstanding character that people have bent over backwards to give him the benefit of the doubt. Specifically, if this were any other big-time program and a long time assistant coach had been forced out under circumstances that were similar to Sandusky's exit, it would not be conceivable for us to think that the coach didn't know about allegations of wrongdoing and that those allegations prompted Sandusky's exit. The only reason we have not made that assumption here - the only reason - is our collective desire to give Paterno the benefit of the doubt.
The events of the last 8 months have erased the desire to give Paterno the benefit of the doubt, and we are able to see things for what they were at Penn State. Is it fair that leaks are being used against Paterno in this fashion? Probably not. Are the leaks reflecting an accurate picture of what actually happened? Almost unquestionably.
The full report will come out and with it will be the disclosure that the Paterno family wants. I might caution them to be careful what they wish for.
Fuck the Paterno family. I predicted from Day 1 or maybe 2, that the whole 98 incident and subsequent resignation by Coach Jerry smelled like a Paterno led coverup. He covered for the f'n guy for 13 years.
My mom's a PSU alum and PSU is the college football team I've pulled for the longest.
The institution allowed Paterno to run things including putting his puppet in there as AD. These mealy mouthed f'n emails from these so called leaders brings me back to the "courtroom" scene from Scent of a Woman where Pacino wonders about the lost leadership principles of the school and then fantasizes about taking a flamethrower to the place. That's what's needed at PSU, a fucking flamethrower.
My mom's a PSU alum and PSU is the college football team I've pulled for the longest.
The institution allowed Paterno to run things including putting his puppet in there as AD. These mealy mouthed f'n emails from these so called leaders brings me back to the "courtroom" scene from Scent of a Woman where Pacino wonders about the lost leadership principles of the school and then fantasizes about taking a flamethrower to the place. That's what's needed at PSU, a fucking flamethrower.
The full disclosure the family wants will probably have to wait until the criminal charges against Curley and Schultz are resolved. At that point, everything is likely to become public -- either because PSU voluntarily does so, or because a change in PA's public records law leaves them no choice.
Does anyone know if PSU's outside counsel has spoken to investigators about the advice they gave in 2001? I would expect the university to waive privilege and ask their attorneys to cooperate fully with the investigation, but the AG might have told Freeh not to go there, for fear of jeopardizing criminal prosecutions. (I would expect the administrators to argue that the advice was personal rather than professional; the fact that PSU presumably paid the bill isn't necessarily dispositive on that question.) Personally, I would rather get at the full truth, even if it means letting Curley and Schultz (and possibly Spanier) off the hook, but the AG may not agree.
They could scream World War III to you and that wouldn't change the fact that the "agenda" is to uncover and prosecute all those that are involved in a massive 15+ year cover up of a monster whom was allowed to operate under the noses of a massive power structure simply to keep a football program out of harm.
I'll take that agenda everyday of the week.
Paterno was a piece of shit and his reputation is now completely worthless. Fuck him and the power bestowed on him by a football program.
Who's "we"? I have made that assumption. I made it quite a while back. I argued that it was pretty much inconceivable that Paterno didn't know of the investigation (which doesn't stop the apologists from conceiving of it), and that given the timing and circumstances of Sandusky's retirement, it stank like week-old mackerel.
Amen. It was a nice run for them, but their time as the relatives of the {insert fawning adjectives here} college football coach of all-time has come to an end. Maybe I missed the press conference where the Paterno family sheds tears for the victims their dear father/grandfather turned his back on for over a decade to protect the PSU image, but these clowns have no grounds to demand anything.
From what little I have read the NCAA has no grounds to drop the "death penalty" hammer on PSU. Funny thing, the NCAA. Where covering up for a sexual predator is not an infraction but a kid exchanging his jersey for a few tattoos is.
Hyperbole to be sure, but to me this whole deal has been such a damning window into the priorities of that fucked-up, cloistered little community. At least I hope those priorities (the program above all else to the point of enabling a serial child rapist) are not present to this extent in Baton Rouge, Lincoln, Austin, etc.
I hate the death penalty and I hate NCAA sanctions. Punish the people involved, not the people now at the school who had no hand in this, not the kids in the program who had nothing to do with this, and not the fans who had no idea this was being covered up.
Go after the people who hid this for years with all the legal shit in the book. But don't punish the wrong people. It's just vindictive and stupid.
Go after the people who hid this for years with all the legal shit in the book. But don't punish the wrong people. It's just vindictive and stupid.
Andy Staples on SI.com
But the tone of some comments in this thread regarding the "death penalty" remind me of the famous "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it" justification for behavior that bordered on war crimes. The people most affected by a "death penalty" for PSU's football program are NOT the people who are responsible. They are mostly innocent in this situation. I understand this situation is rife with evil and horrible people who "got away with it" but those evil and horrible people are not the players or current coaches or other students, staff and faculty at PSU. The town does not need to be destroyed - the guilty need to be punished and the innocent need to be treated like they are innocent.
Punishing PSU's current football players (all of them in elementary school when Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier & Curley made their heinous choices and perpetrated their unspeakable actions) won't help victims heal and it won't punish the men responsible for this cesspool. Paterno has escaped any justice on this earth and can only have his reputation affected; Sandusky will be going to jail; Curley & Spanier should join him in prison for their actions.
But the tone of some comments in this thread regarding the "death penalty" remind me of the famous "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it" justification for behavior that bordered on war crimes. The people most affected by a "death penalty" for PSU's football program are NOT the people who are responsible. They are mostly innocent in this situation. I understand this situation is rife with evil and horrible people who "got away with it" but those evil and horrible people are not the players or current coaches or other students, staff and faculty at PSU. The town does not need to be destroyed - the guilty need to be punished and the innocent need to be treated like they are innocent.
If it was just Jerry Sandusky perpetrating evil on Jerry Sandusky's time, that would be one thing. But the problem is that Jerry Sandusky used the PSU facilities and football program to recruit and as a cover for his activities.
I don't have time to look it up, but I recently saw something that PSU committed violations of "honest conduct" that could be a basis for NCAA sanctions.
And as for the writer's example, two things. First, no one is shutting down PSU's football program. They can still play. They just can't make as much money off it with sanctions - they won't get the same caliber of athletes; they won't be able to go bowls; etc.
Also, if the same incidents had happened in a medical program, your damned right that program would be shut down at least for a while. As Doctors have the same duty to report, the Chief of Surgery would be fired and prosecuted, those covering up would be fired and prosecuted; and various funders and accreditation agents would come down to make sure the program would have addressed those issues. And in exactly the same way, while they could keep teaching, the program would slow down and be punished.
The majority of the people affected by most NCAA sanctions are largely innocent. Still doesn't mean the program, which is larger than the individual, shouldn't be punished.
I was answering a post talking about the unfairness of using leaks to smear Joe Paterno by sayuing that while "we" (people generally) may have given him the benefit of the doubt when the scandal broke, he doesn't deserve it any more.
I assumed that the context of my post was apparent, but since it wasn't, I'm glad you were able to make it absolutely clear that I wasn't speaking for you, and that in truth, you've known the facts about the Sandusky case all along. I guess my only question is why you waited for years to alert the authorities.
The fact that Paterno covered up for Jerry Sandusky while turning his back on the children is what screams "agenda" in this scenario. He could have chosen to protect the integrity of his football program by dumping this squarely in Sandusky's lap from the get go.
I think some of the calls for the death penalty aren't just anger and vindictiveness, but a reaction to the assumption that the reasons that these men made their decisions was to protect the football program. That there is some sickness in the football culture that led to all this, and that this sickness is what needs to be eradicated, and the only way to do that is an NCAA death penalty.
Personally I think they get some form of sanctions, maybe self imposed, and not the death penalty.
PSU is the person responsible. A somewhat helpful analogy is that when a UPS driver negligently hits someone's vehicle in the course of his employment, UPS is on the hook (through a concept called respondeat superior, which doesn't always extend to intentional torts, but bear with me). The institution itself is and should be responsible for the actions of its employees and agents taken in the course of their employment. This is one of those instances in which that legal concept matches up with the moral for me. Otherwise the institution moves on with no incentive to hire better people or have more (independent?) oversight.
Severely punishing the institution serves at least two of the most typically stated goals of punishment: retribution and deterrence (both specific and general). If the punishment involves a mandate for institutional changes, you can work some rehabilitation in their, too.
I'm not clear on how my assumption indicates knowledge of the facts. I drew some logical inferences from information that came out at the same time as the indictment: that there had been an investigation in 1998, and then Sandusky retired in 1999. I don't see how any reasonable person could not think it likely that Paterno knew of the investigation, and it's a reasonable (though not necessary) inference that Sandusky's sudden retirement was remarkably coincidental with that investigation.
I did give Paterno the benefit of the doubt in assuming that he didn't orchestrate a cover-up in 2001. Looks like I may have been overly generous there.
The argument against sanctions being imposed on PSU seems to be an argument against sanctions.
Lol boo hoo
Lol boo hoo
Fuck the town. And I don't believe for a second that all of the people complicit in this cover up are gone. And as to if "innocent bystanders" get caught up in this, it regularly happens in these investigations. And if the death penalty is what it takes for the next group of assholes and monsters to put the safety of children above a fucking sport, so be it.
The argument against NCAA sanctions is that this isn't the sort of thing the NCAA polices. The analogy about the IRS not pursuing murderers who pay their taxes is an apt one. To carry that a step further, however, if even a tiny compliance mis-step emerges in connection with this investigation, the NCAA should pursue it aggressively, just as the IRS pursued Al Capone.
I manage a bank. If I deliberately look the other way to my bank being used for a money laundering scheme, I'll go to jail. But my bank will also face massive penalties. Almost every banker whose gone through Anti-Money Laundering training has heard about Raul Salinas. In addition to the local banker participants being punished, AEBI was also fined $35 million for, essentially, not doing enough to prevent it. Most competent professional organizations are held liable for the actions of their employees and members.
*edit* To be clear...
It should be a given that if a football program was used as either a device or a reason to cover up a crime, the NCAA should stick PSU with harsh enough penalties that all schools know that whatever reputation hit they would take, or even penalties the NCAA may level, the non-reporting of the crimes will cause even more of a handicap to the program.
I could see the NCAA's arguments against sanctioning PSU if Jerry Sandusky was "just" caught molesting children. Even on campus, in a football facility. But to have members of the AD and coaching staff complicit in not reporting it makes it a program wide issue that then needs to be dealt with.
In the IRS example, it's not an accurate example, although admittedly the bank example isn't either. The NCAA isn't being asked to go after Jerry Sandusky. It's being asked to punish a member of its own constituency who knew crimes were going on and did nothing about it. A better example may be an IRS being asked to fire or suspend an auditor who, in the course of an audit, found evidence of criminal activity, but never reported it because the person being audited wrote out the check for the owed amount.
Does someone have a link to the applicable rules/code? I know there was an excerpt on the previous page.