Pedroia has a concussion?
- Thread starter MakMan44
- Start date
I thought that the forearm to Pedroia's head was intentional. I understand a reach for the bag when a baserunner slides head first, but a twisting forearm shot to the head of a defensive player is something I do not recall seeing before. I did not read the game thread, but I suspect I am not the only one with this view.
AZBlue said:
You weren't, but the consensus was that you are incorrect. Forsythe pulled his right arm back to avoid the tag attempt, not knowing whether his left hand would get to the bag before Pedroia's glove. Momentum carried his right arm back toward Pedroia and the timing couldn't have been worse.
Consider what you're suggesting for a second. A sliding baserunner, having pulled him arm back, is somehow capable of purposely throwing a forearm/elbow at a defender lunging in to try to make a tag. The body control necessary to do that seems improbable at best.
The reason, I think, it appeared intentional to some is how the replay looked in slow motion. Slow motion distorts momentum on a play such as this.
Also, no one connected with the Red Sox (to this point) has suggested any ill intent at all.
I would not suggest that Forsythe intended to cause an injury, but I thought it was reckless and intended to impact Pedroia rather than to avoid the tag. Only Forsythe knows.
AZBlue said:
Again, no. I get where your head is at. Seeing someone's elbow driven into someone else's head so squarely makes it tough to get the thought of it being intentional out of your mind since we almost never see that motion leading to that kind of impact without it being intentional, but it was clearly a "swim move" slide to avoid a tag. He touched the bag with his left hand first, but he was moving far too fast to suddenly stop the motion he'd started once Pedroia's face got in the way. I mean, we're talking about maybe a half a second between his hand touching the bag and his elbow hitting Pedroia.
Plus, what would the benefit of causing some kind of collision have been? There was no double play to break up. It doesn't make any sense to start from the assumption that he went into that play looking to make contact since he had a pretty good chance to be safe. I just don't see it. When you take a step back to consider all of the context, the argument for it being intentional falls apart, whether you are talking about it being an intentional shot to the head or just an intentional bit of contact with the body.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
Certainly I would hope it wasn't an intentional shot to the head. But it's hard for me to watch that clip and understand how it wasn't an intentional shot to something. I agree that it seems kind of pointless in context, but it also doesn't make sense to me, visually, that it was just the natural outcome of the slide. His arm comes way up. He has to lift and twist his right side in a way that appears to require additional energy--it's not just momentum, if it were, the arm would not have come up that high. Maybe that's an illusion, but it's a hard one to shake.
Savin, read my post again. I didn't argue his momentum forced it. I argued he was moving his arm up and over like that to try and avoid the tag. The action was intentional. I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the collision being intentional.
Savin Hillbilly said:
So you've never gone swimming? You should probably just step away from the keyboard before you and Snod have 20 consecutive posts about this.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
Why does he need to avoid the tag? The left hand is already on the bag at that point.
ScubaSteveAvery said:
When I go swimming I don't lift my body halfway out of the water to swing my arm extra high.
I don't *want* to think Forsythe took a shot at him on purpose. I'm just saying the alternative explanations don't jibe with what I'm seeing. YMMV. (We don't need consensus on this, do we?)
I agree. It gave me pause initially but there's been no comment anywhere I can see from any Sox player or coach about it so let it go and hope he recovers fully.mauidano said:
Savin Hillbilly said:
While sliding, his body rolled left to avoid Pedroia's legs and he appeared to be losing his balance with a chance to overslide and have his hand come off, which would have allowed Dustin to possibly tag him out. The swim move looked like an instinctive attempt to regain his balance while avoiding any glove tag by Dustin AND giving Forsythe a chance to grab the bag with his right hand.
When Remy & Orsillo started mentioning that it looked like an intentional elbow, I thought they were nuts.
Savin Hillbilly said:
Last time. He was trying to avoid being tagged on his right arm, in the event that his left hand doesn't reach the bag before Pedroia's tag. Momentum carried the arm through at an awkward angle, exaggerated by watching the play in slo-motion.
If anything, he might have though he could knock the ball loose from the glove ... but I doubt that he even had time to think that through in the middle of a slide
If this had happened against the Twins, or the Padres, or some other team where's there's no history of bad blood, there wouldn't be a question. Because it's the Rays, some folks are determined to read more into it than exists.
Even Dipshit and NumbNuts brought up the rivalry angle when discussing it on the broadcast, instead of looking at the physics of the play
Even Dipshit and NumbNuts brought up the rivalry angle when discussing it on the broadcast, instead of looking at the physics of the play
AZBlue said:
Maybe he thought Pedroia would only ever be a utility infielder after watching him in the AFL.
Forsythe did take a big ol' swing at him, though.
Obviously not intentional. It was a swim move with momentum taking his right arm into Pedroia. No way Forsythe could possibly plan a play like that even if he wanted to hurt him.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a 7 day DL stint. Does Mookie get some time at 2B? Or maybe just Holt?
Wouldn't be surprised to see a 7 day DL stint. Does Mookie get some time at 2B? Or maybe just Holt?
I'm shocked anyone here thinks that was intentional. I also thought D&O were insane when they brought it up as possibly intentional and I went back and forth with Tom Caron on Twitter when he brought it up.
There is no possible way that was intentional in any way shape or form.
There is no possible way that was intentional in any way shape or form.
Video on MLB.com.. the replay of the play at second is @ 25 second in the video.. apologies for the Kay Jewelers Commercial at the beginning..
http://m.mlb.com/video/v35804943/bostb-pedroia-takes-elbow-to-head-exits-the-game
http://m.mlb.com/video/v35804943/bostb-pedroia-takes-elbow-to-head-exits-the-game
Have to hand it to the Rays not only did he "do it the right way" but he kept perspective in terms of his size compared to the game.mabrowndog said:
Swim move my ass. He was probably safe if he went in clean so the shot with his arm to fend off Pedroia was like insurance. You can't swing an arm out like that and hit a defender. Pitchers get suspensions for throwing at a batter with supposed intent to harm. That was a dangerous play. He should be suspended, but it's all over, right?Byrdbrain said:
Al Zarilla said:
He was probably safe, but he didn't know if Pedroia was going to be able to get a swipe tag on his right arm so he did a (potentially) unnecessary swim move with his right arm to make sure he was safe and didn't get tagged.
In the process of doing this, Pedroia dove back and ran into Forsythe's elbow as he brought it down. We are obviously beating a dead horse here, but there is a 0.00000% chance it was intentional. I'm surprised there is even someone on the other side of this debate.
Holt getting the start at 2B today, not surprising.
I didn't see it live but I saw a replay without sound and the other person with me asked the same question, "did that look intentional to you?" and I agreed it kinda looked it. Whether or not it was is actually intentional is in someway irrelevant to asking the question was it intentional and is it worthy of discussing? It was worth asking the question if so many people asked the same question. In the very least it appeared odd especially in the limited parameters of how I viewed it.radsoxfan said:
PS: This was not how I wanted to see Betts get a shot at second. (Perhaps he still won't).
I didn't see the game, only some replays. OK, exactly what Seantoo posted after I started posting.radsoxfan said:
I would put some stock in what Remy said, considering he's played Major League second base and has had baserunners try to take him out, whilst all of us, Orsillo, etc. never have.mabrowndog said:
Yeah, throwing up his arm like that is a very unusual, unnatural move for a guy going into a base. I doubt there was any intent to injure, but he just wanted to make additionally sure he'd get in there.threecy said:
What I also thought of that was different but similar just because player safety was involved was when Posey got blown up in 2011. Most felt Cousins was in the right the way he went into home but guess what, 3 years later, major rule change. You don't see many occurrences at second (or third) base like what Forsythe did though, so I don't think Torre or his people will be discussing anything.
