Pedro, Smoltz, Biggio, and RJ get into HOF

Merkle's Boner

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gaelgirl said:
Neither, he will clearly go in as a San Francisco Giant, where he spent the best year of his career. ;) Actually, I suspect he will be either a blank hat or a Diamondback. It's a more important decision than most because neither the Mariners nor the Diamondbacks have a player in the Hall of Fame.
 
Looking at that list of 90+ percent inductees, it's clear that this process has never made sense. Babe Ruth and Willie Mays both got about 95 percent of the vote. What was the issue with the other five percent of voters? Is there any sound or reasonable argument against these guys? I guess with Ruth, you can argue that he was competing against the whole of baseball history up to that point, so maybe the vote was diluted a bit. 
 
One dude this year, Jerry Green, voted for Clemens and McGwire... but not Bonds. He wrote a column about his votes, but didn't mention Bonds or how he came to determine Mark McGwire earned a vote and Bonds did not when by every conceivable metric Bonds was miles better. It's a great article, though, and demonstrates that he takes the voting seriously and laments his colleagues that do not: http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/jerry-green/2015/01/03/green-hall-fame-voting-serious-business/21242617/
 
It upsets me to no end the grandstanding over PEDs now, when the players involved are for the most part retired. The players the same writers voted in as Cy Youngs and MVPs even after they suspected or even knew the players used PEDs. The PEDs that the same writers for years never cared to investigate when it was becoming fairly clear that they were infiltrating the sport. But *now* they grandstand and lament about the integrity of the game. It's all a load of nonsense. They excuse some forms of cheating (amphetamines, doctoring the ball) while excluding this one specific form. Yet they don't *really* know who was clean and who was not. Surely there are steroid users enshrined already, and will be again in the future. Some combat this by never voting for anyone in the era, which is the antithesis of fairness.
 
There are suspected murderers and hideously racist members of the Hall. There are even gamblers who bet on the game. It's highly probable Ty Cobb was all three... and he's there. But let us not sully the reputation of this hallowed institution with players who worked ridiculously hard to achieve greatness, including using substances they shouldn't have used but virtually everyone in the game ignored for years because nobody wanted to stop the gravy train. 
I don't think it's inconceivable to imagine that 5% of the BBWAA was not willing to vote for a black player back then.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Merkle's Boner said:
I don't think it's inconceivable to imagine that 5% of the BBWAA was not willing to vote for a black player back then.
I'm not sure if you're referring to the rumor that Ruth was part black, but in regards to Mays he was inducted in 1979. I'm sure there were racist writers back then, just as there are  now but it was not the 1950's south.  
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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richgedman'sghost said:
I'm not sure if you're referring to the rumor that Ruth was part black, but in regards to Mays he was inducted in 1979. I'm sure there were racist writers back then, just as there are  now but it was not the 1950's south.  
 
There may have been some racism involved with non-votes for Mays and others, but there has always been a contingent of BBWAA voters who feel no one should get in unanimously.  That notion was a lot stronger and prevalent back then than it is now, but is has always been the biggest and often only reason that no-doubt Hall of Famers have fallen short of getting 100% of the vote.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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It is right and good that Pedro, Randy Johnson, and John Smoltz were elected to the HOF on the day of the Feast of the Three Kings.
 

Laser Show

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gaelgirl said:
Neither, he will clearly go in as a San Francisco Giant, where he spent the best year of his career. ;) Actually, I suspect he will be either a blank hat or a Diamondback. It's a more important decision than most because neither the Mariners nor the Diamondbacks have a player in the Hall of Fame.
The Mariners will likely have Junior come 2016 though. I bet RJ goes in with a DBacks hat.
 

Laser Show

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JimBoSox9 said:
Everyone should stop what they're doing and watch the 5:00 mark of this video.  Pedro demonstrates how his fingers let him throw the Lord's Changeup, with two dominant HOF pitchers standing next to him shaking their heads in disbelief and, yes, a little bit of jealousy and frustration.  Smoltzie had just talked about how Maddux and Glavine could never teach him a changup; you could almost see him calculating what his vote percentage would have been with those hands.
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/7417714/v37113417/darling-speaks-with-2015-hof-class-pitchers
Fingers should not be able to bend that way. Holy shit.
 

donutogre

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JimBoSox9 said:
Everyone should stop what they're doing and watch the 5:00 mark of this video.  Pedro demonstrates how his fingers let him throw the Lord's Changeup, with two dominant HOF pitchers standing next to him shaking their heads in disbelief and, yes, a little bit of jealousy and frustration.  Smoltzie had just talked about how Maddux and Glavine could never teach him a changup; you could almost see him calculating what his vote percentage would have been with those hands.
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/7417714/v37113417/darling-speaks-with-2015-hof-class-pitchers
 
Oh my god. First off, that grip he's showing off in the first half of that conversation just seems like the most unnatural way to hold a ball ever. And then the fingers bending back to that insane degree. The whole video is great but man, that is so out there. Love it.
 

JimBoSox9

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Changeups are really all about trying to hold the ball as unnaturally as possible.  The basic theory is that if you do everything 100% exactly the same as when you throw the fastball, but hold the ball really shitty, it'll come out like a fastball but slower.  Supinating the wrist and using circle grips are just flourishes off of the 'hold it shitty' basics.
 

mt8thsw9th

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canderson said:
Will Randy Johnson go in as a Dback or Mariner?
 
I would imagine this is a borderline no-brainer in regards to DBacks over Mariners. He was merely a bit above average for a good chunk of his time in Seattle, before turning into Randy Johnson as he approached 30. From 1989-1998 he had a 129 ERA+ (which includes his 322 with Houston in 1998). In his first stint with the Dbacks (1999-2004) he had a 175 ERA+, 4 Cy Youngs, and a WS ring (and a WS-saving performance in a game 7). His WAR during his time in Seattle was 42.8, and 53 in Arizona.
 

geoduck no quahog

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gaelgirl said:
...It upsets me to no end the grandstanding over PEDs now, when the players involved are for the most part retired. The players the same writers voted in as Cy Youngs and MVPs even after they suspected or even knew the players used PEDs. The PEDs that the same writers for years never cared to investigate when it was becoming fairly clear that they were infiltrating the sport. But *now* they grandstand and lament about the integrity of the game. It's all a load of nonsense. They excuse some forms of cheating (amphetamines, doctoring the ball) while excluding this one specific form. Yet they don't *really* know who was clean and who was not. Surely there are steroid users enshrined already, and will be again in the future. Some combat this by never voting for anyone in the era, which is the antithesis of fairness...
 
 
I think one approach could be this: 
 
Create a section of the museum dedicated to the "PED era", allowing voters to supplement their ballots in this category. For example, you could vote for Clemens as a "regular" hall of famer - and then vote for him again as "Hall of Famer - PED Section" (the PED vote would not count against the total votes you're allowed).
 
When a player gets voted into this special section, he doesn't get to go to the same ceremony as the other guys (avoiding the embarrassment say, of having Bonds on the same stage as Griffey Jr.). Instead, they enter without ceremony, but still get enshrined as Hall of Famers. Museums have different sections for different things, so why not this one?
 
50 years from now, when everyone's gotten over it, the "PED section" can be closed and the members moved into genpop. At least it gives guys like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheffield, etc. a chance to make it in before they die. Hell, you could even expand it to a "cheaters" section and include Rose.
 

amh03

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Fyi - the Sox are now making tickets available for that July 28th game that they'll be honoring Pedro. Go to www.redsox.com and click on the single game tickets.
 

LogansDad

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amh03 said:
Fyi - the Sox are now making tickets available for that July 28th game that they'll be honoring Pedro. Go to www.redsox.com and click on the single game tickets.
Thanks for the heads up.  Tickets bought.
 

Marciano490

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JimBoSox9 said:
Everyone should stop what they're doing and watch the 5:00 mark of this video.  Pedro demonstrates how his fingers let him throw the Lord's Changeup, with two dominant HOF pitchers standing next to him shaking their heads in disbelief and, yes, a little bit of jealousy and frustration.  Smoltzie had just talked about how Maddux and Glavine could never teach him a changup; you could almost see him calculating what his vote percentage would have been with those hands.
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/7417714/v37113417/darling-speaks-with-2015-hof-class-pitchers
 
I remember an SI article from '99 or '00 talking about how the tips of Pedro's fingers were slightly upcurved, which also allowed him to put movement on the ball nobody else could.  A freak genetic anomaly.
 

JimBoSox9

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TBH I thought the simple fact of his freak fingers was kind of general knowledge.  He didn't get into the bolts in that clip, but basically his ability to bend up and maintain fingertip contact a hair longer through the release was the secret ingredient to his impossible control, particularly with the change.  I'd never seen it before with Randy freaking Johnson standing next to him being like "yo, that dude has a weird body", though.
 

mabrowndog

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I didn't see these posted anywhere earlier in the thread, but here's Pedro getting the call:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jclEJKHUpE

And here's the nearly-complete Fenway post-induction press conference:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ9YyRO8TCQ
 

Solder

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See you all in Cooperstown for the induction.  I'll be 34 years old then, and no one could mean more going into the HoF to me than Pedro.

Go Sox!
 

Laser Show

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mabrowndog said:
And a day later, this happened:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE8INpndDsQ
"If you could come back and drill one batter who would it be?"
 
Not even a beat before he answers: "Jorge Posada"
 
I love that man.