Payton Pritchard drafted #26 overall

reggiecleveland

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Lebron is the best athlete ever in anything. Brown is not in the same universe. Gronk is small and slow compared to Lebron. I have stood next to many nba guys. Even played against some on their way up or down. Only twice have I felt like I was in the presence of gods not humans. 46 year old Wilt, and 17 year old Lebron.
 

slamminsammya

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I am with you heee. But, I am scared to get into it. An 'average' nba athlete is guy who had he dedicated himself to decathlon would have a medal chance if he learns to pole vault.
I keep hearing how Nesmith and Romeo are +, or ++ athletes. They are both pretty average NBA athletes. The Celtics were one of the least athletic teams in the league after the Jays and TL.
How athletic are other teams when you subtract their top 3 athletes? And if we are talking about last year's edition, do we not include Javonte Green, who seemed like he could jump out of a stadium if he wanted to?
 

luckiestman

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Lebron is the best athlete ever in anything. Brown is not in the same universe. Gronk is small and slow compared to Lebron. I have stood next to many nba guys. Even played against some on their way up or down. Only twice have I felt like I was in the presence of gods not humans. 46 year old Wilt, and 17 year old Lebron.

Bo Jackson?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Euclis20

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I don't know where people get this, but Jason Kidd was a considered a great athlete when his career started. As Gary Payton said, he was considered LeBron before LBJ: https://abc7news.com/sports/gary-payton-people-dont-know-[jason-kidd]-was-the-first-lebron/4134506/

Not only was he really fast and quick, he was way stronger than anyone else in high school and college.
For better or worse a lot of people conflate athleticism with vertical leap, and Kidd could barely jump over a phonebook for most of his NBA career. He didn't have a single dunk in his last 10 seasons, and had just 14 total in the 5 years before that. That kind of thing is more easily shrugged off with a midget like IT, or even a small point guard like CP3 who is 6' even. Not from a big pg like Kidd, who was listed at 6'4.
 

JM3

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You'd have to be a SoSHer to have heard of the guy. He has less than 400 followers. He's just some guy with a twitter. An unverified one at that. He used to be a member here which is the only reason he's brought up.

I was also speaking in a general sense that missing out on a PP type isn't going to hurt anyone. If you are using it as an excuse for being wrong, yeah it's a shit excuse.
He also used to post a lot on 2+2.

& he was on Chad Ford's podcast a few weeks ago:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-case-against-cade/id1503591370?i=1000528840258

The funniest part about that to me was when Ryan Rusillo was on his next pod & Chad kept on referencing his pod with Dean & you could tell RR was like wtf is this guy & why are you talking to me about his opinions.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mock-draft-3-0-w-ryen-russillo/id1503591370?i=1000529069141

To me the main problem with Dean's stuff is he goes way over the top on some of his takes. Like he correctly identifies some of Cade's warts, but going from there to "I'll rank him behind a bunch of other guys with bigger warts & less translatable skills" is where he loses me.

I still enjoy reading his stuff, though. Just another reference point.
 

JM3

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Like could Cade be the 6th best player in the draft when we look back on it in 15 years? Sure, but if 4 of the people you have ranked ahead of him aren't better than him, is that actually a win?

I was going to cite the 2014 draft where he ranked Wiggins 7th, but I guess you could at least make arguments for 5 of the 6:

https://deanondraft.com/2014/06/26/mega-board/amp/
 

radsoxfan

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Like could Cade be the 6th best player in the draft when we look back on it in 15 years? Sure, but if 4 of the people you have ranked ahead of him aren't better than him, is that actually a win?

I was going to cite the 2014 draft where he ranked Wiggins 7th, but I guess you could at least make arguments for 5 of the 6:

https://deanondraft.com/2014/06/26/mega-board/amp/
Yeah many of his takes are way over the top and he also refuses to acknowledge when he is wrong. But in retrospect much of that board is pretty good.

Having Jokic at 16 was still way off, but compared to others he was obviously onto something there. Plus being that high on Embiid and down on Wiggins/Parker was better than most did.


1. Joel Embiid: 7’0″ C, Kansas, 20.3 years old. DX: 1, ESPN: 4
Embiid has all of the talent and none of the durability. He was in a tier by himself until he became a medical disaster, and now I’m not sure where to put him. I’m going to be optimistic and assume that modern medicine and nutrition is advanced enough to give him the possibility of a normal, healthy career. I understand that this puts me at big time risk of looking terrible down the road, but I never claimed to be able to predict health. I don’t have access to his medical report, and it’s possible that having access would alter my opinion. Consider this a shaky #1 ranking based on my strong belief in his talent. The draft is all about binking upside, not avoiding downside.

7. Andrew Wiggins: 6’8″ SF, Kansas, 19.4 yrs. DX: 2, ESPN: 1
8. Jabari Parker: 6’8″ PF, Duke, 19.3 yrs. DX: 3, ESPN: 2

The top two contenders for #1 overall are also rife with flaws that sit unwell with me.

16. Nikola Jokic: 6’11” C, Serbia, 19.4 yrs. DX: 42, ESPN: 31
His poor athleticism and speed make it fair to take his stats with a grain of salt, but based on his stats he appears to have a shot of becoming the best passing big man of all-time. That gives him a world of intrigue to me on its own.


Just to throw out one that looks bad compared to consensus that draft...

35. Zach LaVine: 6’6″ SG, UCLA, 19.3 yrs. DX: 31, ESPN: 14
He has the athleticism to make this ranking look silly down the line, but I’m 90% sure he doesn’t have the skill level to do so. You need to believe that Steve Alford severely held him back to take him in round 1.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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Lebron is the best athlete ever in anything. Brown is not in the same universe. Gronk is small and slow compared to Lebron. I have stood next to many nba guys. Even played against some on their way up or down. Only twice have I felt like I was in the presence of gods not humans. 46 year old Wilt, and 17 year old Lebron.
Getting off track here in the PP thread but young Shaq eats Lebron for breakfast.

I know you "Played The Game" but your posts get haughty sometime. Lebron is actually on record re: Gronk.

43462
 

reggiecleveland

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Getting off track here in the PP thread but young Shaq eats Lebron for breakfast.

I know you "Played The Game" but your posts get haughty sometime. Lebron is actually on record re: Gronk.

View attachment 43462
No idea what offended you. Sorry.
I think Lebron, especially considering his longevity is a better all around athlete,
 
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TripleOT

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So the previous commitment PP had was playing in the Portland Pro-Am this weekend. According to numerous reports on twitter, Pritchard put up 92 points, making 20 threes. Mike James checked in with 63 points for the opposition.

WTF?
 

benhogan

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TripleOT

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Sam Vecenie of The Athletic has PP as his captain of the Too Good For Summer League Team:

”Honestly, ranking Pritchard at No. 37 on my 2020 NBA Draft Board is one of the dumber things I’ve done logically in a while. I loved Pritchard in college. I have a Naismith Award vote and voted him as a clear finalist. He would have been my second-place vote if the ballot was a ranked-choice ballot. Simply put, he’s just gotten so much better each of the last three years, and it was obvious then that Pritchard was going to be an effective offensive NBA player. I let the worries I have about him defensively override what I knew what true about him offensively. Even if I do think the defensive concerns are still justified, that was just silly. He’s clearly going to be worthy of the first-round pick the Celtics used on him, and he has a chance to exceed that by a pretty sizable margin if his play continues.

Pritchard was the most effective player I saw at aummer league this year, which shouldn’t come as a total surprise given that he’s coming off of a season where he deservedly earned votes for the All-Rookie team. There was never a moment where he was hurried or rushed. His poise stood out to the utmost degree to the point that he almost looked bored while also trying to make dudes look ridiculous trying to defend his step-back game.

Three things really stood out. First, the range. Pritchard looked extremely comfortable shooting not just behind the NBA line, but shooting over five feet behind the NBA line. Any team that went under a ball-screen that got set even 30 feet away from the basket got punished. But honestly, we kind of knew he could do that. The improvements came in two places. Pritchard’s handle has taken another step forward. There’s another level of suddenness off the bounce. He uses deceleration well, then explodes into each move. On top of that, he can creatively string together multiple change-of-direction moves at full-speed now while maintaining total control.


More than that, though, there was not a more comfortable passer at summer league. Pritchard’s decision-making has long been terrific, but it was even better this summer. He posted an absurd 8.7 assists to 1.3 turnovers per in his three games. His live-dribble passing took a step forward, particularly with one hand. Having long been more of a jump-stop passer, Pritchard threw a couple of impressive one-handed live dribble looks with confidence that make me think he can run the show as a starting guard at some point for this Celtics core.

Everything about this was exactly the kind of performance you expect to see from a guy when you’re counting on him to take a leap the following season. And indeed, even with the Dennis Schröder signing, the Celtics need Pritchard to be useful this year, at the very least off the bench. They need secondary creation next to Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brownfrom the backcourt. It’s easy to feel way better about that coming from Pritchard following a standout summer league performance.”

Immanuel Quickley, Payton Pritchard lead the 2021 Too Good For Summer League Team
https://theathletic.com/2772088/2021/08/16/immanuel-quickley-payton-pritchard-lead-the-2021-too-good-for-summer-league-team/?source=user_shared_article
 

NomarsFool

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I'm not familiar with this Pro-Am stuff. What's the point of having players who can score 81 points or 92 points in a game playing against high schoolers? Just seems a bit odd. I mean, if you are an NBA player and you play in a Pro-Am score and score LESS than 50 points do you cry yourself to sleep that night? What would Lebron score, like 200 points?
 

128

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I'm not familiar with this Pro-Am stuff. What's the point of having players who can score 81 points or 92 points in a game playing against high schoolers? Just seems a bit odd. I mean, if you are an NBA player and you play in a Pro-Am score and score LESS than 50 points do you cry yourself to sleep that night? What would Lebron score, like 200 points?
Pritchard reportedly was being covered by former NBA guard Mike James, who scored 60-plus points himself.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm not familiar with this Pro-Am stuff. What's the point of having players who can score 81 points or 92 points in a game playing against high schoolers? Just seems a bit odd. I mean, if you are an NBA player and you play in a Pro-Am score and score LESS than 50 points do you cry yourself to sleep that night? What would Lebron score, like 200 points?
They aren’t usually high-schoolers. Typically you’ll get some overseas guys along with college players and ex-college players. It’s summer league though and nobody is going to stop NBA scorers from scoring......even if they could it isn’t likely they are going to try as it’s easier to just get them back on the other end.
 

128

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They aren’t usually high-schoolers. Typically you’ll get some overseas guys along with college players and ex-college players. It’s summer league though and nobody is going to stop NBA scorers from scoring......even if they could it isn’t likely they are going to try as it’s easier to just get them back on the other end.
Yeah, these are crowd-pleasing games in which little to no defense is played. I remember when Ben Wallace, who played at Virginia Union, was a regular at the Pro-Am that was held in a high school in Richmond. That league also featured former NBA wing Johnny Newman and assorted VCU, UR, Virginia Union and Virginia State guys.
 

chilidawg

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Yeah, these are crowd-pleasing games in which little to no defense is played. I remember when Ben Wallace, who played at Virginia Union, was a regular at the Pro-Am that was held in a high school in Richmond. That league also featured former NBA wing Johnny Newman and assorted VCU, UR, Virginia Union and Virginia State guys.
I'm having a hard time picturing Ben Wallace in a game with nobody else playing defense.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, these are crowd-pleasing games in which little to no defense is played. I remember when Ben Wallace, who played at Virginia Union, was a regular at the Pro-Am that was held in a high school in Richmond. That league also featured former NBA wing Johnny Newman and assorted VCU, UR, Virginia Union and Virginia State guys.
I saw Iverson play in a pro-am game down here one year. It's for fun. They are playing with their boys.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I saw Iverson play in a pro-am game down here one year. It's for fun. They are playing with their boys.
When I was a teenager, Ernie DiGregorio was pissed at the ref for not calling a travel of something so before he walked off the court in the middle of the game he tossed in a 60-foot behind the back shot for just beyond half court.
 

Senator Donut

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Teams miss on the top top 4-5 all the time and it sets the franchise back. The C's were incredibly lucky to get Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. They could have easily had Kris Dunn and Markelle Fultz... and if SOSH got their way on draft night... that's who the consensus would have picked.
Imagine if the Celtics had missed on their draft picks and instead selected the players drafted immediately after Brown and Tatum. Wasting top-four picks on Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson in consecutive years, no franchise could recover from that!

(I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but kind of venting. Teams don’t often trade into the top five, so it’s very important to get those picks right if you do. If you’re a bad team at the top of the draft, which is more likely, you’ll keep on getting chances to make a good pick.)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Imagine if the Celtics had missed on their draft picks and instead selected the players drafted immediately after Brown and Tatum. Wasting top-four picks on Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson in consecutive years, no franchise could recover from that!

(I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but kind of venting. Teams don’t often trade into the top five, so it’s very important to get those picks right if you do. If you’re a bad team at the top of the draft, which is more likely, you’ll keep on getting chances to make a good pick.)
How is nailing player evaluation considered “lucky” in this example?
 

Havlicheck

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Imagine if the Celtics had missed on their draft picks and instead selected the players drafted immediately after Brown and Tatum. Wasting top-four picks on Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson in consecutive years, no franchise could recover from that!

(I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but kind of venting. Teams don’t often trade into the top five, so it’s very important to get those picks right if you do. If you’re a bad team at the top of the draft, which is more likely, you’ll keep on getting chances to make a good pick.)
 

Havlicheck

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Actually, the Suns did draft both Bender and josh Jackson and have recovered as well as or better than the Celtics have prospered with Brown and Tatum
 

128

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I'm having a hard time picturing Ben Wallace in a game with nobody else playing defense.
Ben saw those games as an opportunity to practice his jumper, which usually meant about as well as you'd expect.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Imagine if the Celtics had missed on their draft picks and instead selected the players drafted immediately after Brown and Tatum. Wasting top-four picks on Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson in consecutive years, no franchise could recover from that!

(I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but kind of venting. Teams don’t often trade into the top five, so it’s very important to get those picks right if you do. If you’re a bad team at the top of the draft, which is more likely, you’ll keep on getting chances to make a good pick.)
That's fair. One could argue that drafting Bender and Jackson did set the franchise back a couple years though. It's really hard (almost impossible) for any move to set any NBA franchise back more than 3-4 years. The KG/PP trade set the Nets franchise back but they still probably had a more legit chance at a title than the C's have had post trade. The C's won the Tatum trade too, and the 76ers were arguably in a better position before the Simmons meltdown.

And that's a good point about teams who are bad and just keep getting chance to make good picks. On the flip side, one could argue those teams keep getting chances to make a good pick because they keep making bad picks. If the Suns took Fox instead of Jackson, their trajectory changes. If the Kings took Doncic instead of Bagley, they'd be contenders for the first time since Webber/Peja.

Actually, the Suns did draft both Bender and josh Jackson and have recovered as well as or better than the Celtics have prospered with Brown and Tatum
Wooosh.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The article got pretty redundant pretty quickly. Are we sure KSmith didn't interview SOSH posters and not scouts?

I said in another thread that I thought DA was trying to build a championship-level bench by using his draft picks, which is super hard to do. PP is actually a really good example of why that is so hard to do. He's kind of a perfect bench fit for the Jays because of his shooting and his not needing to touch the ball.

But the big question is - will he sign his second contract with the Cs? As the article says, he's probably could get McConnell money right now and teams overvalue shooting, so isn't his most likely path going to RFA and getting an offer the Cs can't match because of luxury tax concerns?
 

HomeRunBaker

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The article got pretty redundant pretty quickly. Are we sure KSmith didn't interview SOSH posters and not scouts?

I said in another thread that I thought DA was trying to build a championship-level bench by using his draft picks, which is super hard to do. PP is actually a really good example of why that is so hard to do. He's kind of a perfect bench fit for the Jays because of his shooting and his not needing to touch the ball.

But the big question is - will he sign his second contract with the Cs? As the article says, he's probably could get McConnell money right now and teams overvalue shooting, so isn't his most likely path going to RFA and getting an offer the Cs can't match because of luxury tax concerns?
I know I spoke of this last year in that Pritchard’s role in this organization is that of a cheap Olynyk-like rookie deal to allow for top end dollars to be paid out to the stars. I don’t know if the chances are zero (obv not actually zero) but pretty close to the bottom of that range that he re-signs with the Celtics. There is also a greater than zero chance that Romeo/Nesmith win those backup guard minutes especially if Schroeder doesn’t start. To summarize, appreciate what Pritchard gives us in these next couple years to help us compete for a title……and don’t invest in his jersey.

As far as the article:…ugh. The redundancy of people say “If he had better vision”, “if he could defene like O’Connell”, if this if that…..that isn’t the player he is.
 
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ManicCompression

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As far as the article:…ugh. The redundancy of people say “If he had better vision”, “if he could defene like O’Connell”, if this if that…..that isn’t the player he is.
It brings up an interesting point about physical limitations vs. skill limitations, most notably shooting. I think lots of players have the caveat "If he could shoot, then..." and there are a plenty of examples of those players putting in the work and improving drastically (though obviously more that don't). But if you look at Jaylen, Zach Lavine, Tatum to some extent, Rozier, John Collins, Julius Randle, list goes on. Or there's "if he could just defend well enough" and that includes a guy like Klay, Collins, Brandon Ingram, etc. The requirement there seems to be physical tools (Tatum isn't an amazing athlete, but has a ton of size; Rozier ain't big, but is a top 20% - 30% athlete in the NBA I'd wager).

But these guys who don't have the physical traits to build off of aren't going to have the same kind of skill development. Like you say, they either have it or they don't. Sure, Nash improved to an MVP quality player, but he already had such a high-baseline when it came to playmaking and shooting (same for Trae). Unless you have the physical traits of Donovan Mitchell (Gadget arms, out of the gym hops, speed, strength), a 6'1" guy is what he is in the league and it's kind of silly to expect improvement outside of variance in shooting percentage.
 

JM3

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I mean yeah, he hasn't exhibited great vision or the ability to not be a turnstile, & yes he is going to be capped by his lack of size & athleticism, but there is no reason he can't work his azz off & get better at passing, better at seeing a step ahead, better at moving his feet, better at anticipating what everybody on the floor on both ends is going to do before they do it.

The difference between being a poor passer/defender & an adequate passer/defender is huge, even if adequate is his absolute ceiling.
 

ManicCompression

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I mean yeah, he hasn't exhibited great vision or the ability to not be a turnstile, & yes he is going to be capped by his lack of size & athleticism, but there is no reason he can't work his azz off & get better at passing, better at seeing a step ahead, better at moving his feet, better at anticipating what everybody on the floor on both ends is going to do before they do it.

The difference between being a poor passer/defender & an adequate passer/defender is huge, even if adequate is his absolute ceiling.
There is a reason, though. He's not going to see the floor as well as Mike Conley because he doesn't have the same kind of speed, so NBA defenders will not be afraid to get into his body at halfcourt. And all that defensive stuff is great, but kind of pointless when everyone can shoot over you, blow past you, overpower you, drive you into the hoop, etc. Do you think Payton hasn't developed those skills already because he hasn't worked hard enough on them?
 

JM3

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There is a reason, though. He's not going to see the floor as well as Mike Conley because he doesn't have the same kind of speed, so NBA defenders will not be afraid to get into his body at halfcourt. And all that defensive stuff is great, but kind of pointless when everyone can shoot over you, blow past you, overpower you, drive you into the hoop, etc. Do you think Payton hasn't developed those skills already because he hasn't worked hard enough on them?
I think he hasn't developed the skills that he can if he hits his upside on them because he's played in the NBA for 1 season.

I think it's kinda pointless to say "well I'll never be above average at something, I'll just stop working on it."

He has the shooting skill that will keep him in the league. He needs to be not atrocious at the other stuff to earn playing time.

Every skill is a continuum, & getting better at stuff is always a good thing.
 

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I mean yeah, he hasn't exhibited great vision or the ability to not be a turnstile, & yes he is going to be capped by his lack of size & athleticism, but there is no reason he can't work his azz off & get better at passing, better at seeing a step ahead, better at moving his feet, better at anticipating what everybody on the floor on both ends is going to do before they do it.

The difference between being a poor passer/defender & an adequate passer/defender is huge, even if adequate is his absolute ceiling.
This is a good point. We (royal we) tend to dismiss marginal, incremental improvements, but they're good things to have happen. I hate the Marcus comps from those scouts because Marcus' vision is overlooked. Marcus came into the league as a defender, but with somewhat shitty handle and garbage vision imo. Now he's as much a 1 offensively as a 2, which is saying something. Pritchard can and should improve that part of his game, and it will really help. And incremental strength and lateral mobility improvements will make him less of a swinging door. Just because he'll always be 6'1" and not long doesn't mean that those def improvements don't matter. They do.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is a good point. We (royal we) tend to dismiss marginal, incremental improvements, but they're good things to have happen. I hate the Marcus comps from those scouts because Marcus' vision is overlooked. Marcus came into the league as a defender, but with somewhat shitty handle and garbage vision imo. Now he's as much a 1 offensively as a 2, which is saying something. Pritchard can and should improve that part of his game, and it will really help. And incremental strength and lateral mobility improvements will make him less of a swinging door. Just because he'll always be 6'1" and not long doesn't mean that those def improvements don't matter. They do.
Learning the league can help too. Not only what he can get away with (and what he can't) but also what guys like to do.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The scouts were more positive about his long-term potential than I would have guessed. To me, he's a shooter, limited defender, and needs to develop other parts of his game to maximize is value.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It brings up an interesting point about physical limitations vs. skill limitations, most notably shooting. I think lots of players have the caveat "If he could shoot, then..." and there are a plenty of examples of those players putting in the work and improving drastically (though obviously more that don't). But if you look at Jaylen, Zach Lavine, Tatum to some extent, Rozier, John Collins, Julius Randle, list goes on. Or there's "if he could just defend well enough" and that includes a guy like Klay, Collins, Brandon Ingram, etc. The requirement there seems to be physical tools (Tatum isn't an amazing athlete, but has a ton of size; Rozier ain't big, but is a top 20% - 30% athlete in the NBA I'd wager).

But these guys who don't have the physical traits to build off of aren't going to have the same kind of skill development. Like you say, they either have it or they don't. Sure, Nash improved to an MVP quality player, but he already had such a high-baseline when it came to playmaking and shooting (same for Trae). Unless you have the physical traits of Donovan Mitchell (Gadget arms, out of the gym hops, speed, strength), a 6'1" guy is what he is in the league and it's kind of silly to expect improvement outside of variance in shooting percentage.
Yes, this is what I preach relentlessly on what “upside” really is. Sure you’ll always have your one-offs like a Nash and a Curry but it’s annoying to hear people say things like “Look at Nash!”……yeah, and for every Nash are 100 who don’t ever exceed their low ceiling based on their physical limitations.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is a good point. We (royal we) tend to dismiss marginal, incremental improvements, but they're good things to have happen. I hate the Marcus comps from those scouts because Marcus' vision is overlooked. Marcus came into the league as a defender, but with somewhat shitty handle and garbage vision imo. Now he's as much a 1 offensively as a 2, which is saying something. Pritchard can and should improve that part of his game, and it will really help. And incremental strength and lateral mobility improvements will make him less of a swinging door. Just because he'll always be 6'1" and not long doesn't mean that those def improvements don't matter. They do.
Disagree on Smart’s vision which is important in this discussion. His vision at Ok State wasn’t only good it was exceptional. This was a strength of his entering the league and only had to slow the game down (overused but important term) for him to become an effective passer against NBA level defenders. So this ability was already there……while certain parts of Pritchard’s game never will be such as closing out on shooters due to his physical limitations.
 

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Melrose, MA
Disagree on Smart’s vision which is important in this discussion. His vision at Ok State wasn’t only good it was exceptional. This was a strength of his entering the league and only had to slow the game down (overused but important term) for him to become an effective passer against NBA level defenders. So this ability was already there……while certain parts of Pritchard’s game never will be such as closing out on shooters due to his physical limitations.
Marcus' vision and anticipation play at both ends of the floor.