Paul George to OKC

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No, getting picks wasn't the priority this is where you are wrong. On his way out the door, Larry Bird emphasized that his greatest challenge in Indiana was his inability to be allowed to "bottom out" and rebuild. This ownership wants to remain competitive and retain the revenues that come with being a competitive team and not a tanking team or bottom feeder. Receiving a quality starter and a young viable frontcourt rotation guy on controlled contracts help achieve this.

Taking chances on resigning players like Avery on expiring contracts at the risk of bottoming out later isn't what they are looking to accomplish.
If this is true, they should have taken Kevin Love.

I'm not saying you're wrong, BTW. Pritchard absolutely could have seen Oladipo's contract as a positive plus the fact he played at IU as a way to sell tickets. But if IND misses on a couple of draft picks, Oladipo is gone and IND will take years to be out of the lottery.

Seems to me that Pritchard's better bet was to take AB, Crowder, and Smart, spin AB off for more assets ar next year's trade deadline, and start taking on bad contracts and additional assets to either make multiple picks or trade up. The only true way to guarantee better drafting odds is to either move the pick up or make multiple pocks.
 

Jimbodandy

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No, getting picks wasn't the priority this is where you are wrong. On his way out the door, Larry Bird emphasized that his greatest challenge in Indiana was his inability to be allowed to "bottom out" and rebuild. This ownership wants to remain competitive and retain the revenues that come with being a competitive team and not a tanking team or bottom feeder. Receiving a quality starter and a young viable frontcourt rotation guy on controlled contracts help achieve this.

Taking chances on resigning players like Avery on expiring contracts at the risk of bottoming out later isn't what they are looking to accomplish.
I understand that his mandate is "remaining competitive". This trade allows them to compete for the eighth seed and keep butts in the seats. I don't see where we are in disagreement about that.

My point was that Indiana needs to be thinking long-term also. If not bottoming out, at least they could get players AND picks that might turn into something. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't have pulled that off with a little patience. Sure, picks outside of the lottery don't have a high hit rate, but it has to be better than zero, doesn't it?

I guess Celtics fans should thank their lucky stars that the organization that we support doesn't set goals like "just don't be terrible". Same league, different worlds.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I understand that his mandate is "remaining competitive". This trade allows them to compete for the eighth seed and keep butts in the seats. I don't see where we are in disagreement about that.

My point was that Indiana needs to be thinking long-term also. If not bottoming out, at least they could get players AND picks that might turn into something. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't have pulled that off with a little patience. Sure, picks outside of the lottery don't have a high hit rate, but it has to be better than zero, doesn't it?
We disagree because you are saying they need to be thinking long term......yet advocating for uncertainty with Bradley's expiring contract as the prize of the return on George. If they wanted to have an expiring contract as one of their key players they could simply keep George. They ARE looking long term based on their business plan of remaining competitive and in the playoff mix with Oladipo and Sabonis under control through the 2020-21 season.

I'm sure they would have loved to have received draft picks as part of the return but these teams all know Pritchard had severe leverage issues so those picks weren't on the table. There comes a time when patience goes against you when you are dealing against a clock that George put in place with his public statement to get a trade done prior to FA......the Pacers needed to have the return for George in place to move forward with constructing their roster for both this summer and other deals that can affect their future. The Celtics offer we are discussing of Bradley and Crowder didn't include draft picks and neither did OKC's.

I guess Celtics fans should thank their lucky stars that the organization that we support doesn't set goals like "just don't be terrible". Same league, different worlds.
We really are lucky in this regard. When I lived in Charlotte during the Bobcat years the franchise was losing tens of millions annually while making horrific public relations decisions (sneaking the public funding of a new arena onto the unsuspecting public) and personnel decisions......their 3 Top-10 lottery picks when I was there were Adam Morrison, DJ Augustin, and Gerald Henderson after turning down the opportunity to trade up for Chris Paul choosing to roll with Raymond Felton instead.
 

mcpickl

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I'm sure they would have loved to have received draft picks as part of the return but these teams all know Pritchard had severe leverage issues so those picks weren't on the table. There comes a time when patience goes against you when you are dealing against a clock that George put in place with his public statement to get a trade done prior to FA......the Pacers needed to have the return for George in place to move forward with constructing their roster for both this summer and other deals that can affect their future. The Celtics offer we are discussing of Bradley and Crowder didn't include draft picks and neither did OKC's.
According to pretty much everybody, the Celtics most recent offer was two starters, thought to be Bradley and Crowder, and three first round picks.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/06/paul_george_is_gone_pacers_shun_c_s_trade_star_to_oklahoma_city
 

Minneapolis Millers

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And they could have taken one of those 3 picks and traded for Ricky Rubio.

Look, except when you're dealing with elite assets, it's not what you get when you're rebuilding, it's how much. Specifically, how much value. You can always trade a pick for a player and vice versa. Most people outside of this board seem to agree that IND got less value in this deal than they should have and than was apparently being offered by others (BOS).
 

Ale Xander

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The salary floor is relatively meaningless. There's no penalty, you just redistribute whatever you're short to the rest of the players on your team. It also doesn't need to be met until the last day of the season, so you can use the room you have to facilitate trades among other teams at the deadline and acquire assets that way.

As you mention, their market impacts things. They likely will have trouble getting any big name FA to come there, so they have to build through draft and trades. I can see if it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'd rather my team in that situation bottom out rather than live in no man's land of the late lottery, with a clunky $21M salary in an average player winning 30-35 games a year and having no shot to draft a franchise player or picks to make a trade for one. Matter of preference I guess.
I agree with you 100% now, I read some stuff that OKC just wanted to get rid of Oladipo's salary for nothing. A Sabinis for George trade straight up, even for one year, is a win for them.
 

InstaFace

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Most people outside of this board seem to agree that IND got less value in this deal than they should have and than was apparently being offered by others (BOS).
And this thread has convinced me that it's a blessing, because if Pritchard was actually trying to optimize his long-term value, George might well be in Los Angeles or Cleveland right now.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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As I already said earlier, Pacers would have cap space. They can give him a raise to his salary, then extend him off that new salary.
The NBA doesn't work like that. He can either renegotiate for up to 120% of his current salary -- which he wouldn't do because he's underpaid at $8 million -- or reach free agency, at which point the Pacers can only pay him more in the event that they offer him a max salary.
 

sezwho

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And this thread has convinced me that it's a blessing, because if Pritchard was actually trying to optimize his long-term value, George might well be in Los Angeles or Cleveland right now.
The other piece of this, and I know Pritchard is only supposed to act in his own self interest, is that handing PG to the Celtics could seal the Haywood four stars powerhouse team on top of the Cavs in the East. The Cs may not have Lebron but they would have lottery picks past present and future as well. I wouldn't have wanted to be the GM who signed that deal then had to compete with them.
 

mcpickl

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The NBA doesn't work like that. He can either renegotiate for up to 120% of his current salary -- which he wouldn't do because he's underpaid at $8 million -- or reach free agency, at which point the Pacers can only pay him more in the event that they offer him a max salary.
The NBA works exactly like that.

Russell Westbrook and James Harden did exactly this a year ago.

It's called renegotiation.

You should check it out, here's a link.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q59
 

nighthob

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Bradley isn't doing that. The max extension Bradley could sign is 120% of his current salary.
Indiana has cap space for next season, so they would be able to use that extra space to increase his pay for the 2018 season. An extension is limited to 120% of current pay, but as a player coming in to the last year of his contract it can be renegotiated.
 

InstaFace

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How is that? Lakers giving up Ingram or Cavs giving up Love is better value long term?
As others here have argued: The lakers acquiring him would greatly lower the chances of us getting pick 2-5 next year. Cavs would be another team in the mix for us to lose the auction to, lowering our odds and raising the price, and whom we also don't want to see gain in talent level right now. Anytime you've got an honest auction running, it's easily possible to end up with winner's curse and find that your prize may not be worth all that you gave up for it.

In a choice between "Pacers are running an auction" and it's between the Celtics, the Cavs and the Lakers, or "Pacers are being petty and irrational and handing him to OKC for two minor assets", I'm pretty well OK with the latter.
 

Kid T

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The other piece of this, and I know Pritchard is only supposed to act in his own self interest, is that handing PG to the Celtics could seal the Haywood four stars powerhouse team on top of the Cavs in the East. The Cs may not have Lebron but they would have lottery picks past present and future as well. I wouldn't have wanted to be the GM who signed that deal then had to compete with them.
If the mandate is only to sell tickets, why not? It's not like the Pacers have a realistic window of opportunity to compete for even a playoff spot in the interim. Besides, having a superteam visit actually would be a draw and help sell more tickets.
 

sezwho

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Kid - I don't think the mandate is to sell tickets exactly, but rather to stay somewhat competitive/not be terrible. Maybe it's a fan thing, but maybe they really think it's the best way to build a franchise.

As I stated, I can understand the position that the pacers should not care what happens to the Celtics, but creating a juggernaut of largely late 20s studs with a bunch of even younger players and potential lottery picks in your conference seems like a move to avoid. I think they intentionally did so, and it seems consistent with the facts, but until the story comes out it's just a theory.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Indiana has cap space for next season, so they would be able to use that extra space to increase his pay for the 2018 season. An extension is limited to 120% of current pay, but as a player coming in to the last year of his contract it can be renegotiated.
Stand corrected on the extension rules.

Still don't see why Bradley would be so interested in signing there without an overpay though.
 

nighthob

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Well, in NBA terms you want to raise your pay as soon as possible, and the "Bradley has no trade value!!!" position has been predicated on the idea that he was going to maximize money and leave any team he got traded to. So if he really is maximizing money, making Oladipo money starting next year would help him in that regard.
 

sezwho

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Well, in NBA terms you want to raise your pay as soon as possible, and the "Bradley has no trade value!!!" position has been predicated on the idea that he was going to maximize money and leave any team he got traded to. So if he really is maximizing money, making Oladipo money starting next year would help him in that regard.
With respect to the bolded, I did say he would have no incentive to stay on a crappy team headed the wrong way in a small market where he has no pre-existing relationships. Maybe that's the same.

With respect to the latter point, I suppose they could still buy his service in which case why trade PG for him?
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Well, in NBA terms you want to raise your pay as soon as possible, and the "Bradley has no trade value!!!" position has been predicated on the idea that he was going to maximize money and leave any team he got traded to. So if he really is maximizing money, making Oladipo money starting next year would help him in that regard.
It's not merely predicated on the idea that he wants to maximize money. It's predicated on the idea that as a UFA, he has the ability to do what he wants, whether that's driven by a desire to contend, maximize his earning, or some combination of the two.

The concerns about Bradley's value as an asset are valid for a number of reasons, but primarily, they're driven by his contract situation. That he's eligible for a large extension certainly would have helpedIndiana's case, but would his staying there would have been far from a certainty.
 

67YAZ

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This is why they had to move PG13 so fast!


@WojESPN "Free agent guard Darren Collison has agreed in principle to a two-year, $20 million deal with the Indiana Pacers, league sources tell ESPN."