Pats QB options in 2021

Bowser

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I have major reservations about basing a rebuild around a $35M QB, particularly given the team's many needs. But if BB's time horizon is 1-3 years, can he build a championship caliber team with Deshaun Watson and another $30M to spend? And what if the cost of getting Watson is two #1s, Dugger, Onwenu, and the RFA rights to JC Jackson (or some combination thereof)? As much as I think Mac Jones is a fit, I wonder if BB would prefer to continue to "sell out" for another championship over the near term...
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I have major reservations about basing a rebuild around a $35M QB, particularly given the team's many needs. But if BB's time horizon is 1-3 years, can he build a championship caliber team with Deshaun Watson and another $30M to spend? And what if the cost of getting Watson is two #1s, Dugger, Onwenu, and the RFA rights to JC Jackson (or some combination thereof)? As much as I think Mac Jones is a fit, I wonder if BB would prefer to continue to "sell out" for another championship over the near term...
I think if Watson is an actual option, he’s exactly the type you “sell out” for. 25 years old, clear cut Top 5 QB in the league, at least for me. As you mention, it’s not like BB is going to be coaching another 10 years most likely so if you had Watson, it’d be fairly easy to find him some WR to throw to, no?
 

Bowser

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Well, I don't think Watson will be an actual option, and we haven't had much luck finding WRs to throw to. But it would be awfully enticing to try to make a run in 2021 with him at QB; Gilmore and DMac on their last years; Hightower, Chung, and maybe Cannon back; and, say, Tim Patrick and Jonnu Smith. Even if Caserio were to demand Dugger, Onwenu, and some #1s, there's still the makings of a championship caliber team. But once you start looking out more than a year, the degree of difficulty increases and the path forward gets a little more murky.
 

rodderick

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Well, I don't think Watson will be an actual option, and we haven't had much luck finding WRs to throw to. But it would be awfully enticing to try to make a run in 2021 with him at QB; Gilmore and DMac on their last years; Hightower, Chung, and maybe Cannon back; and, say, Tim Patrick and Jonnu Smith. Even if Caserio were to demand Dugger, Onwenu, and some #1s, there's still the makings of a championship caliber team. But once you start looking out more than a year, the degree of difficulty increases and the path forward gets a little more murky.
No way do the Patriots have anywhere near the makings of a championship caliber team, even with Watson. Do they even have more talent on the roster than the Texans? Maybe in 2-3 years, but they aren't just a QB away from being immediate contenders.
 

Cellar-Door

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No way do the Patriots have anywhere near the makings of a championship caliber team, even with Watson. Do they even have more talent on the roster than the Texans? Maybe in 2-3 years, but they aren't just a QB away from being immediate contenders.
The Patriots won 7 games this year with arguably the worst QB play in the league.
If you add one of the best QBs in the league, and the return of some of the opt outs, and a good 40M+ in cap space? Yes they'd be a championship caliber team.

And yes the Patriots have way more talent everywhere but WR than the Texans. The Secondary is MUCH better, the front 7 isn't really any worse (maybe a bit worse even with the return of Hightower, but the HOU front 7 isn't what it was), the O-line is better, the RBs are better, both TE groups are garbage.
 
I think the above point is particular relevant when we look at teams like Detroit and your beloved Falcons that will have new GMs. The GM taking the Falcons over, for instance, won't have had an opportunity to install his guys and have them go through a draft cycle (most scouts are hired and fired after the draft). So if he picks a QB, he's either going to have to rely on scouts he didn't hire, or essentially make the decision solo. I don't think he's going to be inclined to make the riskiest decision perhaps in his entire GM tenure in that situation, especially when he has a strong incumbent like Ryan (or Stafford in Detroit's case) in a good contract situation where he can easily just defer the decision another year instead (Carolina is a little murkier, because the HC will have been there a year and Bridgewater is not as entrenched).
How much time do you need to scout a few QBs between now and April? I don't know how GMs operate on a day-to-day basis, but I assume that when you're talking about your first-round pick in the draft - and particularly when you're near the top of the first round and can narrow your focus to just a few guys, one of whom is guaranteed to be available to you - you ought to be able to spend all the time you need to spend to view all the tape and speak to everyone you need to speak to in attempting to make sure you're picking the right guy.

FWIW, discounting Lawrence - who is definitely JAX-bound - my personal top three for the Falcons pick at #4 (in no particular order) is Zach Wilson, Trey Lance and Penei Sewell. That's just a gut-feeling rooting interest based upon the secondhand reports I'm reading, and I don't know anything, so whoever they pick I'll give the new GM the benefit of any doubt I'm feeling. But it's the same gut that had me nauseous on NBA Draft night when the Hawks traded Luka to the Mavs for Trae, so there you go. (I want to stay away from Fields, as I'm scared of Ohio State QBs and think the Falcons are better off drafting a toolsy prospect who can learn from Ryan than a more finished article with a lower ceiling; if for some reason Wilson and Lance went at picks #2 and #3, I'd take the generational tackle prospect; and it sounds like Lance at #4 might be a reach, so maybe the Falcons could trade back a few slots and grab him plus other assets before the Panthers do at #8 - which seems bound to happen if he doesn't go any earlier - but at the same time, if Lance winds up being the guy, you should probably just take him at #4 and not get cute about it, or trade back to #5 if Sewell is available and try to get an extra 3rd or 4th from Cincinnati that way.)
 

Rico Guapo

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The Patriots won 7 games this year with arguably the worst QB play in the league.
If you add one of the best QBs in the league, and the return of some of the opt outs, and a good 40M+ in cap space? Yes they'd be a championship caliber team.

And yes the Patriots have way more talent everywhere but WR than the Texans. The Secondary is MUCH better, the front 7 isn't really any worse (maybe a bit worse even with the return of Hightower, but the HOU front 7 isn't what it was), the O-line is better, the RBs are better, both TE groups are garbage.
Adding Watson costs way too much for the draft picks/players you'll need to send to Houston in addition to the money you're committing to. He's already torn his ACL once and takes a lot of punishment, I can see the argument for paying a player and taking injury risk but I have a hard time seeing the value in taking that risk with the added expense of draft picks/players.
 

Cellar-Door

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Adding Watson costs way too much for the draft picks/players you'll need to send to Houston in addition to the money you're committing to. He's already torn his ACL once and takes a lot of punishment, I can see the argument for paying a player and taking injury risk but I have a hard time seeing the value in taking that risk with the added expense of draft picks/players.
He takes a lot of punishment because he's behind one of the worst lines in the league. As to his ACL... he's a QB, that's not a real injury risk any more than Brady was a risk after 2008 (less so since he's returned and been an elite QB).

You could argue about the cost in picks, but honestly even his salaries are reasonable.
Cheap in 2021 ($10.5M) then 35/20/32/32 on the rest (plus a 17M roster bonus in 2023. That's a good deal, and easily re-workable for spreading cap hits given HOU already paying his signing bonus.

There are reasons to worry about what Watson would cost in terms of assets, but he's also as close to a sure bet to be a top 5 QB over the next 6-10 years as there is in the league and his contract is more than reasonable for that.
 

rodderick

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The Patriots won 7 games this year with arguably the worst QB play in the league.
If you add one of the best QBs in the league, and the return of some of the opt outs, and a good 40M+ in cap space? Yes they'd be a championship caliber team.

And yes the Patriots have way more talent everywhere but WR than the Texans. The Secondary is MUCH better, the front 7 isn't really any worse (maybe a bit worse even with the return of Hightower, but the HOU front 7 isn't what it was), the O-line is better, the RBs are better, both TE groups are garbage.
The 2019 Patriots weren't a championship caliber team. Do the 2021 Patriots with Watson have the kind of talent that team had?
 

Cellar-Door

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The 2019 Patriots weren't a championship caliber team. Do the 2021 Patriots with Watson have the kind of talent that team had?
Depends how they use the cap space, but who do you see as major losses? That space lets you shore up a lot of places that needed help especially WR (Robinson?)
Also I think 2021 DeShaun Watson gives you more upside than 2019 Brady.

Edit- probably a moot point though. HOU is unlikely to trade Watson, and Belichick is unlikely to make the type of over the top 4-5 1sts type of deal the Texans would want (and we lack a premium pick that they would prefer).
 

BaseballJones

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If the Pats gave Hou their next three first round picks plus a current, non-stud player, I'd do it. Next five years' salary:

2021: $10.5m
2022: $35m
2023: $20m
2024: $32m
2025: $32m

The other items (like signing bonus, etc.), Hou would be on the hook for, if I understand things correctly. So for example, his 2021 cap hit is $15,940,000, but that's broken down into two things: (1) his salary of $10,540,000, and (2) his signing bonus of $5,400,000. The Texans are responsible for his signing bonus, leaving the Pats (in a hypothetical trade) responsible for the $10.5m salary.

So those figures are very very reasonable, in all honesty. They could load up for 2021 with him only costing $10.5 million and tons of cap space. Gets harder for 2022 when his cap hit jumps $25m. But then it goes back down nicely in 2023, and by the time 2024-2025 come around, $32 million for a top QB might even be below-market.
 

rodderick

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Depends how they use the cap space.
Also I think 2021 DeShaun Watson gives you more upside than 2019 Brady.
Guess we just have completely different opinions on the current level of talent of players they have under contract for next year. The bolded sentence is doing A LOT of work, especially when you consider Gilmore is injured and it's not certain he'll be on the team, arguably their two best players on their respective sides of the ball in 2020 are FAs (Thuney and Guy), they have basically no starting DL under contract, no starting LB if Hightower doesn't return (and who knows what he is if he does) no starting TE, and the worst WR group in football. They have good corners, a good OL and good RBs, basically, the rest of the roster will have to be completely rebuilt and it's a tough task to completely remake it in a year.

Coaching and QB play goes a loooong way, but I think if they both got Watson and had a stellar offseason the team would still be miles away from KC and not even favored to win the AFCE over Buffalo.
 

jsinger121

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Guess we just have completely different opinions on the current level of talent of players they have under contract for next year. The bolded sentence is doing A LOT of work, especially when you consider Gilmore is injured and it's not certain he'll be on the team, arguably their two best players on their respective sides of the ball in 2020 are FAs (Thuney and Guy), they have basically no starting DL under contract, no starting LB if Hightower doesn't return (and who knows what he is if he does) no starting TE, and the worst WR group in football. They have good corners, a good OL and good RBs, basically, the rest of the roster will have to be completely rebuilt and it's a tough task to completely remake it in a year.

Coaching and QB play goes a loooong way, but I think if they both got Watson and had a stellar offseason the team would still be miles away from KC and not even favored to win the AFCE over Buffalo.
I think this team probably going to be worse than 7 wins next season. They have aging talent on defense. The DL and LB core blow. They don't have a QB, TE or any receivers that are top 2 guys. The OL is ok but they will probably lose Thuney so they can't afford to lose Andrews as well. The one strength they have is special teams and they probably will need a younger better kicker anyways. As I said in the past no one is going to be playing for this team unless they overpay for guys. They don't have a QB that anyone wants to play with anymore and the roster isn't good. This isn't a quick fix and anyone that thinks it is is wearing rose colored glasses.
 

BaseballJones

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Everyone currently on the Pats' roster is "aging". Their "older" players are the McCourtys (33), Guy (30), Simon (30), and Gilmore (30). Guy is perfectly fine at this point (though he isn't signed for 2021), and Gilmore still performs at a very high level. I think DMac is still really good but I'm on record here saying that JMac needs to go - he was HORRIFIC this year. But Phillips will just be 29 next year, which is still fine. Jones will be 28, and the rest of the guys are younger. The overall age of the defense is fine.

The DL and LBs aren't good; that's the real problem. Not age.
 

Captaincoop

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I'm trying to think back through the history of NFL trades where teams unload a bunch of valuable draft picks to acquire a player...how often has that turned out to be a good decision for the team obtaining the one star player?

The Hershel Walker and Ricky Williams deals are obvious counterexamples that come to mind, but flawed in that it is now clearly seen as insane to pay that cost for a running back.
 

rodderick

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I'm trying to think back through the history of NFL trades where teams unload a bunch of valuable draft picks to acquire a player...how often has that turned out to be a good decision for the team obtaining the one star player?

The Hershel Walker and Ricky Williams deals are obvious counterexamples that come to mind, but flawed in that it is now clearly seen as insane to pay that cost for a running back.
QBs are different and I can't remember a single 25 year old franchise QB that was ever traded away for a haul, so it's hard to make that exercise.
 

Captaincoop

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My hypothesis is that it's going to be almost impossible for any team to pay the highest price in the marketplace in terms of draft picks/young players to obtain Watson, and also have the remaining talent/draft picks/cap space to really contend for a title in the next 3-4 years.

Will be interesting to watch unfold.
 

Cellar-Door

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Miami can do it. Theoretically the Jets could too.
yeah, I think particularly the Jets given those SEA picks...
the 3 of those, plus #2, plus whatever you can get from Darnold and you're in the ballpark already, need a bit more, but it's more than doable without being crippling
 

nighthob

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That was my thinking, you get a pick for Darnold and bundle it with #2 and the Seattle picks and you have a solid offer that still leaves you draft capital to build with. Houston swaps out a top 5 QB, but gets another shot at a franchise QB with Wilson or Fields, and picks to rebuild that O line.
 

Super Nomario

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How much time do you need to scout a few QBs between now and April? I don't know how GMs operate on a day-to-day basis, but I assume that when you're talking about your first-round pick in the draft - and particularly when you're near the top of the first round and can narrow your focus to just a few guys, one of whom is guaranteed to be available to you - you ought to be able to spend all the time you need to spend to view all the tape and speak to everyone you need to speak to in attempting to make sure you're picking the right guy.
You can certainly watch all the tape and talk to the coaches, etc. But if you haven't had a chance to see the player at practice and at games, and if that's important to you, you don't have an opportunity at this point.

The larger issue I think is not having a team in place. A player is seen by the area scout, often multiple times, and if he's a player in strong consideration he's cross-checked by a national scout and a couple upper-level executives (Director of College Scouting, Director of Player Personnel, Scouting Consultants, etc.), and eventually members of the coaching staff. A new GM hire might bring along a trusted voice or two, but not the same number of people throughout the command chain he would normally have after being in the job for a full cycle. So he'd be making the decision, maybe the most important decision he will make in his tenure as GM, essentially on his own. Maybe a Dimitroff coming from a college scouting background would be a comfortable enough doing that, but maybe a Nick Caserio, for instance, whose experience is more on the pro scouting side, would not. It's a pretty big risk.

Everyone currently on the Pats' roster is "aging". Their "older" players are the McCourtys (33), Guy (30), Simon (30), and Gilmore (30). Guy is perfectly fine at this point (though he isn't signed for 2021), and Gilmore still performs at a very high level. I think DMac is still really good but I'm on record here saying that JMac needs to go - he was HORRIFIC this year. But Phillips will just be 29 next year, which is still fine. Jones will be 28, and the rest of the guys are younger. The overall age of the defense is fine.

The DL and LBs aren't good; that's the real problem. Not age.
Age isn't the problem now, because the old players (specifically DMac and Gilmore) are still really good. The problem is if the old players start declining, the secondary can go from a strength to a weakness pretty quick. The other issue is both DMac and Gilmore are free agents after 2021 (DMac's contract voids) and it's not clear, given their age, how much longer you want to keep extending them.
 

Bowser

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I go back to the question of BB's time horizon. Can we compete for a championship in 2021? I believe the answer is yes, possibly, but the cost will be steep: picks and players, including future cornerstones like Dugger, Uche, and/or Onwenu, plus cap space dedicated to win-now types, like Robinson and Henry. This approach also potentially opens a window of competitiveness for 4-5 years. I'm speculating, of course.

Note: I wouldn't discount the value of an Onwenu -- who had the 6th highest PFF rating out of all rookies -- or an Uche -- whose 22.2% pass rush win rate for edge defenders would have, had he qualified, landed him inside the league's top 10 -- as compared to a high draft pick.

Then there's a 3-4 year window option, one that's centered on drafting a QB and building toward 2023 and beyond. The challenge is that players like DMac, Gilmore, Hightower, Chung, Jules, Slater, etc. will need to be replaced along the way. That's a difficult needle to thread.

And then there's a longer term rebuild. Is BB a saint who will look to set up the franchise for another 10-year run? Maybe, but I'd be surprised.

Of the three, I'm drawn to Option 1 -- and I wouldn't be surprised if BB is, too. No, I don't think the Texans will trade Watson, but their team stinks. Let them build around Mac Jones -- or package our #1 and #2 picks to trade up for another QB, and give Caserio some of our young, premium talent (and a #1 in 2022) -- as long as the players he plucks from our roster don't prevent us from competing next year.
 
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The Patriots are almost certainly going to be worse next year. The rebuild begins in earnest NOW, not this past season. The talent level is BAD and the proven talent is almost exclusively 30+. I believe in BB's ability to turn it around and "build back better," to borrow a phrase, but Patriots fans need to be realistic.

Deshaun ain't comin' here. He's probably going to wind up staying, but who knows. But to New England? Trading their transcendent and best player would be a tough move for Caserio to make. Trading him to the team he worked for two weeks ago? Please. We also don't have nearly the assets to move for a player of that caliber, and REALLY don't have nearly the assets compared to other teams like Miami, the jets and others. Give it up - Deshaun ain't coming here, and the Patriots ain't winning a Lombardi next year. They're almost surely not going to win the AFC East, for God's sake. I suggest some here recalibrate their expectations.

Edit tweaks and spacing.
 

nighthob

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I go back to the question of BB's time horizon. Can we compete for a championship in 2021? I believe the answer is yes, possibly, but the cost will be steep: picks and players, including future cornerstones like Dugger, Uche, and/or Onwenu, plus cap space dedicated to win-now types, like Robinson and Henry. This approach also potentially opens a window of competitiveness for 4-5 years. I'm speculating, of course.

Note: I wouldn't discount the value of an Onwenu -- who had the 6th highest PFF rating out of all rookies -- or an Uche -- whose 22.2% pass rush win rate for edge defenders would have, had he qualified, landed him inside the league's top 10 -- as compared to a high draft pick.

Then there's a 3-4 year window option, one that's centered on drafting a QB and building toward 2023 and beyond. The challenge is that players like DMac, Gilmore, Hightower, Chung, Jules, Slater, etc. will need to be replaced along the way. That's a difficult needle to thread.

And then there's a longer term rebuild. Is BB a saint who will look to set up the franchise for another 10-year run? Maybe, but I'd be surprised.

Of the three, I'm drawn to Option 1 -- and I wouldn't be surprised if BB is, too. No, I don't think the Texans will trade Watson, but their team stinks. Let them build around Mac Jones -- or package our #1 and #2 picks to trade up for another QB, and give Caserio some of our young, premium talent (and a #1 in 2022) -- as long as the players he plucks from our roster don't prevent us from competing next year.
The problem is that there are two teams with top 5 picks that could stand to upgrade the QB spot. New England just can't compete with that without gutting their next several drafts. At which point they'd be unable to build around Watson.
 

BaseballJones

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The Dolphins are in an ideal spot, really. Trade Tua, their second 1st round pick (#18), a 1st rounder in 2022, and a player that isn't instrumental to them but that Houston likes. Houston ends up with potentially a future franchise QB, two 1st round picks, and a productive starter that fits what they're doing.

Miami then adds D. Smith from Alabama, and suddenly they're frigging awesome.
 

nighthob

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Houston's starting point (for Miami) is going to be the return of their own #1. Because the Jets will gladly pay #2 and more for Watson.
 

BaseballJones

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Houston's starting point (for Miami) is going to be the return of their own #1. Because the Jets will gladly pay #2 and more for Watson.
Well Tua is included in the package, who acts as a proxy for that high pick. Assuming, of course, that Houston likes Tua and sees him as their next franchise QB. If they don't, then obviously they wouldn't even consider this deal at all.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think people are way too down on our talent.
Well Tua is included in the package, who acts as a proxy for that high pick. Assuming, of course, that Houston likes Tua and sees him as their next franchise QB. If they don't, then obviously they wouldn't even consider this deal at all.
Houston isn't trading Watson to MIA without the #3 coming back. Tua doesn't have enough value to be the centerpiece of the trade. It likely starts at Tua, #3 and 2 more 1sts.
 

nighthob

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Well Tua is included in the package, who acts as a proxy for that high pick. Assuming, of course, that Houston likes Tua and sees him as their next franchise QB. If they don't, then obviously they wouldn't even consider this deal at all.
Why would you accept Tua when you could get #2 and a bundle of picks?
 

snowmanny

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If Watson is leveraging his way out of town I suspect he is going to be able to leverage some say in where he goes.
 

BaseballJones

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Why would you accept Tua when you could get #2 and a bundle of picks?
Because maybe you like Tua/#18/2022 1st/good player better? Who knows. But even if they had to include the #3 instead of the #18, I think Miami should do that.
 

nighthob

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You're going to have to think Tua is top five good to take him over a bundle of firsts. I like Tua, but I think he's waaaaaaaaaaaay behind Watson. And Watson's still just 25. I'm not sure that Tua's better than Wilson, and with the Jets you get Wilson plus a bunch of picks. That's what Miami has to beat.
 

BaseballJones

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Well as I said, if Houston doesn't like Tua that much, then OBVIOUSLY they wouldn't do the deal. I mean...that goes without saying, but I feel compelled to repeat it. And again...it's not Tua for Watson. It's Tua, a slightly smaller bundle of first round picks (because Tua "counts" as a first round pick in this scenario), plus another player that Houston wants.

I mean, if the Jets offer a deal, how many first round picks do you think Houston would demand? More than 3? Because Tua + #18 + 2022 1st is basically three first round picks, plus the additional player Houston would want.
 

Cellar-Door

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Well as I said, if Houston doesn't like Tua that much, then OBVIOUSLY they wouldn't do the deal. I mean...that goes without saying, but I feel compelled to repeat it. And again...it's not Tua for Watson. It's Tua, a slightly smaller bundle of first round picks (because Tua "counts" as a first round pick in this scenario), plus another player that Houston wants.

I mean, if the Jets offer a deal, how many first round picks do you think Houston would demand? More than 3? Because Tua + #18 + 2022 1st is basically three first round picks, plus the additional player Houston would want.
I think NYJ would offer 2 (much better than Tua) both SEA picks (23 this year, and next year's SEA pick) and more.
That's a far more attractive package right there.

3 1st (or equivalent) and a player isn't getting it done, especially if none of the picks are premium ones.

Think of Tua as probably valued somewhere in the 12-18 range this year, so ask yourself.... would 12, 18 and a late 1st get you anywhere near getting a top 5-7 QB in the league locked into a good contract? The answer is definitely no.
 

BaseballJones

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Well....as I have said numerous times....my thought only works if Houston thinks of Tua as a franchise QB. If they don't, then this wouldn't do it.
 

nighthob

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I've seen no indication that Tua is a franchise QB. He's good, quite possibly a top ten QB at some point in the future. He's not likely to ever be Deshaun Watson good. An above average QB and low firsts vs. #2 and a bunch of picks, including the same two low firsts.
 

BaseballJones

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I've seen no indication that Tua is a franchise QB. He's good, quite possibly a top ten QB at some point in the future. He's not likely to ever be Deshaun Watson good. An above average QB and low firsts vs. #2 and a bunch of picks, including the same two low firsts.
Nobody in this draft is *likely* to ever be Deshaun Watson good. Not even Trevor Lawrence. There are some guys that *could* get there, but it's not LIKELY.
 

Bowser

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The problem is that there are two teams with top 5 picks that could stand to upgrade the QB spot. New England just can't compete with that without gutting their next several drafts. At which point they'd be unable to build around Watson.
Is Watson going to waive his no-trade to go to the Jets? My guess is no.

If Houston sees Tua as a franchise QB, then sure, there's no point trying to compete with Miami's offer. If they don't -- and I don't see Tua as a future top ten QB -- then I think we could put together a competitive offer, like two of Dugger/Onwenu/Uche, #15 and a 2021 #1.
 

nighthob

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Nobody in this draft is *likely* to ever be Deshaun Watson good. Not even Trevor Lawrence. There are some guys that *could* get there, but it's not LIKELY.
Right, and #2, plus the same two low firsts, and more is greater than a guy that probably won’t be as good as Zach Wilson and two very low firsts.
 

nighthob

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My bad, checking it was Christian Fauria reporting that Bieniemy was going to get the New York job, I should have noted the source.
 

Kramerica Industries

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He has all the leverage. He has a no-trade clause.
huh? If you are the Texans you say “(insert team) or we aren’t trading you”. That’s if they are even open to trading him.

what’s he going to do play poorly intentionally? I don’t see it. If you give him a good coach and supporting cast he will be happy to stay.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
42,891
huh? If you are the Texans you say “(insert team) or we aren’t trading you”. That’s if they are even open to trading him.

what’s he going to do play poorly intentionally? I don’t see it. If you give him a good coach and supporting cast he will be happy to stay.
If your take is that no trade clauses are worthless, I don't know what to tell you. Players can become headaches (see Harden, James) and those that become headaches and have a NTC have even more leverage over where they go.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
42,891
Just because his name has been been mentioned. Article on Wentz that doesn’t paint him as type of guy that would take to BB’s style.


But his resistance to hard instruction made him lose faith from coaches and an unwillingness to accept blame for his mistakes hurt him in the locker room.
“He doesn’t understand that he lost games for us,” a veteran player said. “He will never admit that and that’s a problem because he can’t get it corrected.”