Pats Preseason: Defense Edition

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Nov 17, 2010
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Anything to note re Winovich? I thought he'd be a serviceable edge/passing down guy at least.
With the full caveat that I didnt watch the game: I havent been a fan of Winovich since his first preseason.

I like the guys personality, passion, and motor. But, other than going 110%, I dont see a ton that he does above average. He has to work SO hard just to come off as below average edge guy.

I've been off the Chase bandwagon for a while now.
 

Zososoxfan

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With the full caveat that I didnt watch the game: I havent been a fan of Winovich since his first preseason.

I like the guys personality, passion, and motor. But, other than going 110%, I dont see a ton that he does above average. He has to work SO hard just to come off as below average edge guy.

I've been off the Chase bandwagon for a while now.
So maybe closer to ST and decent backup? Or not good enough to even roster? Still on his rookie deal I believe, so not likely a cut candidate.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I remember Perkins getting completely humiliated and fooled on one of his first plays, and kind of checked out after that. Did he wind up showing anything useful, or was I right to completely write him off after one play?
 

Super Nomario

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if you are playing against a good team who has a bad half, you could be up 7-10 if you’re a slow but efficient team, or up 17-21 (or 25) if you’re a fast and efficient team.
In the third/4th quarter, does your D play any different with a 7 point lead than a 14 or 17 pt lead?
We've beaten this horse to death, but I can't let this one slide. The difference between the very slowest offense in the league and the very fastest is nowhere near where you would end up with more than double the point differential between them, given similar efficiency. It was about a 20% difference last year.
 

simplyeric

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We've beaten this horse to death, but I can't let this one slide. The difference between the very slowest offense in the league and the very fastest is nowhere near where you would end up with more than double the point differential between them, given similar efficiency. It was about a 20% difference last year.
edit: I'm not sure what you mean by "double the point differential between them given similar efficiency". Yeah, if by "similar efficiency" you mean same points per possession, then yeah, by definition if they score the same they score the same.
If a team has 5-6 possessions in the first half, and is pretty efficient, I'm saying that's 3 scores: could be 9 points, could be 21.
If the other team has a bad half, you might have 3 or 7. They could be down two ("these guys are happy to go into the half only down two points!"), or they could be down 18...or 25 We've all seen it.

Which is why I added "a bad half". I'm aware that on average the differences aren't that great. But very few games are "average".

On average, teams had 2 points per possession, 10-11 possessions, and ~20 points per game.
On average, the only team that ever wins the game is the one with 1 extra possession, and they win by 2 points.
Or, those averages aren't actually practical.

The PPG difference between the worst and the best team was not 20%, it was over 100% (Jets: 15.2, Packers: 31.8)

edit: I'm at work so lots of sites are blocked to me right now, but I can see that the top three teams scored 16-18 points in the first half, on average.

Yeah probably beaten to death.
tl/dr:
I believe that offensive scoring, both PPP efficiency and rate of scoring, can affect that same team' approach to (and needs for) defense. That's literally all I'm describing.
 
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Super Nomario

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The PPG difference between the worst and the best team was not 20%, it was over 100% (Jets: 15.2, Packers: 31.8)
Yeah but you're talking more about efficiency than pace. Some of the most efficient teams do not have a lot of possessions. The Packers had fewer offensive possessions than the Jets last year; they were just way way more efficient.
 

Saints Rest

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Is there any chance that Gilmore being on PUP is actually related to his contractual status, not his health? And this could even be mutual, where art of the negotiation is that he can skip training camp, at least until they settle on a revised contract. It protects Gilmore obviously as he doesn't risk injury and he doesn't have to hold out where he woudl be facing steep fines; it helps the Pats in so far as it is a fairly inexpensive way to negotiate while keeping the player happy.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I made clear from the get go that Judon was THE signing I was excited about. Think @SMU_Sox and I were both psyched for it.

There was some hand-wringing about him being a product of the Baltimote scheme, but his strength was never about just pinning his ears back and blitzing.

I'm irrational about this man. Willie McGinest with better coverage. Dude can do it all.

WHEN THE FUCK IS WEEK 1!?!?!
 

tims4wins

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I made clear from the get go that Judon was THE signing I was excited about. Think @SMU_Sox and I were both psyched for it.

There was some hand-wringing about him being a product of the Baltimote scheme, but his strength was never about just pinning his ears back and blitzing.

I'm irrational about this man. Willie McGinest with better coverage. Dude can do it all.

WHEN THE FUCK IS WEEK 1!?!?!
I was a little scared of this too, and was also scared by his early comment that he signed here because the Pats offered him the most money. But his interview this week when he told the reporters to not hold back, and then his play last night… yeah I am full on ready to love him. If I were to buy a new jersey he’d be at the top of my list I think.
 

Soxy

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I made clear from the get go that Judon was THE signing I was excited about. Think @SMU_Sox and I were both psyched for it.

There was some hand-wringing about him being a product of the Baltimote scheme, but his strength was never about just pinning his ears back and blitzing.

I'm irrational about this man. Willie McGinest with better coverage. Dude can do it all.

WHEN THE FUCK IS WEEK 1!?!?!
Not that you’re making this argument, but I’ve seen that criticism in a few places and it makes absolutely no sense to me. “He’s not a truly gifted pass rusher; he’s a product of the Baltimore scheme, which runs a lot of twists/stunts/games up front.”

I can only imagine the people making those types of arguments have never actually watched the Belichick defense lately? Like, what do they think the Pats do? Line a guy on the edge 1v1 and say “go win young fella”?

Pats run a ton of games up front to scheme pressure, so it’s a bit strange for someone to use that as a knock against Judon. “I don’t know about him, the Pats will ask him to do a lot of the same stuff Baltimore did,” seems like a bizarre line of criticism to me.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I was a little scared of this too, and was also scared by his early comment that he signed here because the Pats offered him the most money. But his interview this week when he told the reporters to not hold back, and then his play last night… yeah I am full on ready to love him. If I were to buy a new jersey he’d be at the top of my list I think.
Not that you’re making this argument, but I’ve seen that criticism in a few places and it makes absolutely no sense to me. “He’s not a truly gifted pass rusher; he’s a product of the Baltimore scheme, which runs a lot of twists/stunts/games up front.”

I can only imagine the people making those types of arguments have never actually watched the Belichick defense lately? Like, what do they think the Pats do? Line a guy on the edge 1v1 and say “go win young fella”?

Pats run a ton of games up front to scheme pressure, so it’s a bit strange for someone to use that as a knock against Judon. “I don’t know about him, the Pats will ask him to do a lot of the same stuff Baltimore did,” seems like a bizarre line of criticism to me.
I dont want to just repeat myself, so I'll just quote the post I made about him in May:

Judon is a fucking animal and my favorite kind of edge setter. Hes KVN on steroids. He isnt a Von Miller, Cam Wake, or Justin Houston. He doesnt have the kind of explosive pass rushing moves that those guys have.

But hes one of the rare edge players who goes through the progressions the right way and has enough skill to still get pressure. He'll engage at the snap, but keep his space to digest the play and determine run/pass. If it's a run to his side, the edge will be collapsed and he WILL force you in. If the tackle drops into pass protect, he digests that quickly and has a good punch and first step. He's not "pinning his ears back" and selling out for the pass rush. Hes patient, but still effective when trying to get pressure.

Need him to play zone? He can cover the vert hook/hook curl/curl flat/seam flat well. Need to add some layers against a top TE? Dont line the TE up inline, because Judon will punch and chip you off your route.

Hes a COMPLETE player on the edge. He can do it all. Again, hes not going to get you 15 sacks, but with him on one side and KVN on the other, they're edges are well rounded and are positive against the run and pass.
I'd argue that being able to set the edge is one of the keys to any defense, but a BB type of defense in particular. Everything about stopping the run is predicated on funneling it back to the inside. If the edges arent set and the backs can bounce outside or slip through the C gap (gap between tackle/TE or Tackle/Tackle in overload formation), then the defensive play style becomes a detriment.

The interior linemens focus in a BB defense is to plug gaps. That style means they can't wash down the line to help the edge, and they cant chase down the line to cut off angles.

The Patriots draft thumpers at ILB for a reason. They get downhill fast and can use their size to finish tackles. What they don't have is great sideline-to-sideline speed. And they're strength is at the line in the chaos, not in open space against shifty running backs.

I'm excited for Uche and his growth. But, as boring as it may be, guys like Judon and KVN - in particular in base defense, 2nd+5, 3rd+short situations - keep things in front of the entire defense and eliminate a lot of guesswork for the entire team.

the fact that Judon can also pin his ears back pretty well and drop into coverage? Its just fucking awesome.
 
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I remember Perkins getting completely humiliated and fooled on one of his first plays, and kind of checked out after that. Did he wind up showing anything useful, or was I right to completely write him off after one play?
From what I watched, and from what I heard postgame, my impression is that Perkins had a more than solid showing last night. Hustle, pursuit, not totally over his head. I don’t remember the “completely humiliated” play, but I certainly could’ve missed it. What were the circumstances of that play?
 

DJnVa

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I remember Perkins getting completely humiliated and fooled on one of his first plays, and kind of checked out after that. Did he wind up showing anything useful, or was I right to completely write him off after one play?
No, you're not right to write someone off on one play.

 

tims4wins

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From what I watched, and from what I heard postgame, my impression is that Perkins had a more than solid showing last night. Hustle, pursuit, not totally over his head. I don’t remember the “completely humiliated” play, but I certainly could’ve missed it. What were the circumstances of that play?
He bit inside and lost contain on a run that went for 10+
 

SMU_Sox

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Maybe it's just because I have no idea how to evaluate IDL (that's not a 'maybe,' that's true!), but I was less impressed with Carl Davis than I expected to be. He's a very bug guy who's been getting a bunch of positive notice in practice, and I have him on my 53, but the middle of the line seemed to be getting pushed back on inside runs while he was in there.
You might be right. I know he had at least a couple positive reps but I easily could have missed him getting beat.

Anything to note re Winovich? I thought he'd be a serviceable edge/passing down guy at least.
Apologies I didn't notice anything last night. Could have missed it live. I wonder if a team that values pass rushing and are willing to live with some issues against the run wouldn't float a 3 for him and if they did I wonder if the Pats would be inclined to take it. Personally I'd keep him... I think. Edit: don't think anyone would offer him a 3 and a 3 for a pass rushing specialist is a bit of a steep price.