Pats Preseason: Catch-All Thread

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RedOctober3829

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The NFL announced the preseason games that will be live on NFL Network. Good news: all of the Patriots preseason games are going to be live on NFL Network.

vs. Washington 8/12 7:30 pm
at Philly 8/19 7:30 pm
at NYG 8/29 6:00 pm
 

MonstahsInLeft

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Shocker. Hes willing to "bite the bullet" and make more money this year? What a soldier.
Honestly if that’s true I think it is a pretty big deal and significantly bumps the odds of them getting something done.

The risk on a one-year deal for Gilmore isn’t that high and we know they don’t have great options in-house without him.

Where things get ugly IMO is if he’s insisting on an extension now. At his age, coming back from injury and depending on how much he want to get paid like a top-end CB for MULTIPLE years is where the Pats take on a lot more risk.

At one year they can bite the bullet and buy some time (and still work an extension later).
 

JMDurron

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A willingness to take a one-year deal might also be a positive sign, at least in terms of Gilmore's own appraisal of his health and ability to perform. If things looked a little shakier, he might be more inclined to demand a multi-year extension instead. Betting on himself might be a good deal for both parties here.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Shocker. Hes willing to "bite the bullet" and make more money this year? What a soldier.
I've never understood this attitude with NFL players. With a guaranteed contract, sure. But the team will terminate a contract in a second if they think the player is worth less than the salary. Why shouldn't the player have a similar option?

Asking for fair value, rather than an extension, seems like a big deal.
 

Saints Rest

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Honestly if that’s true I think it is a pretty big deal and significantly bumps the odds of them getting something done.

The risk on a one-year deal for Gilmore isn’t that high and we know they don’t have great options in-house without him.

Where things get ugly IMO is if he’s insisting on an extension now. At his age, coming back from injury and depending on how much he want to get paid like a top-end CB for MULTIPLE years is where the Pats take on a lot more risk.

At one year they can bite the bullet and buy some time (and still work an extension later).
Your last sentence answered my main question.
Franchise tag for CB this year was about $15M; restricted was about $13.2M. Maybe they end up in that range, adding $6-8M to this years cap hit. Or I could see them offering to restore the $5M that got advanced.
In either case, hopefully it’s done with the idea that they revisit a multi-year extension mid-season.
 

BigJimEd

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Gilmore's contract was 5/65 averaging13M per year so not far off from those numbers. I can see the Pats offering nothing more than a small bump plus incentives.
 

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Gilmore's contract was 5/65 averaging13M per year so not far off from those numbers. I can see the Pats offering nothing more than a small bump plus incentives.
This. Get him damn close to where he wants to be, and throw some incentives on top to entice him. It won't break the bank or run up future credit card tabs for the team to settle. It's small money in the grand scheme. It's an important position. Get it done Theo.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Honestly if that’s true I think it is a pretty big deal and significantly bumps the odds of them getting something done.

The risk on a one-year deal for Gilmore isn’t that high and we know they don’t have great options in-house without him.

Where things get ugly IMO is if he’s insisting on an extension now. At his age, coming back from injury and depending on how much he want to get paid like a top-end CB for MULTIPLE years is where the Pats take on a lot more risk.

At one year they can bite the bullet and buy some time (and still work an extension later).
Oh, I agree with you. Frankly, I'd rather sign him to a one year extension if possible. I think hes still a great CB, and if we can snag the last few years of his career before he falls off a cliff (as lots of CBs do around 32 and 33), I think that would be the ideal situation for all parties involved. He gets 2 years of security and should be able to perform well enough to cash in one more time with a team dumb enough to pay him for his mid-30's cliff. We keep a great CB and dont lose depth at a really important position.

I'd give him a boost in pay this season, a nice payday for next season, and then let him destroy someone else's cap.

I've never understood this attitude with NFL players. With a guaranteed contract, sure. But the team will terminate a contract in a second if they think the player is worth less than the salary. Why shouldn't the player have a similar option?

Asking for fair value, rather than an extension, seems like a big deal.
I hear this a lot, and I agree more with the idea for younger guys being stuck on rookie contracts. Careers are so short, I feel like these guys should get a bigger pay day sooner.

But it's not fair to look at contracts as a year by year entity. He signed a 5/$65 contract. The view is clearly as $13ish million a year. If he gets paid $61 million in the first year, it doesnt mean he deserves a pay raise in years 2-5. It just means his agent walked circles around the NFL club and gave his client a bunch of leverage for later seasons.

The players sign the contract. If they want the financial security then they can negotiate the contract accordingly. Which is what Gilmore and his team did. His cap hit was low the first three years (around $8.5m per year). Despite that, he still made $41m, largely due to guaranteed cash. That's nearly $14m a season, which is top 5-10 in pay. He made another $14m last season. The final year of his contract is nearly immovable due to its dead cap structure. This was done with purpose. They cant cut him or trade him, and hes only "making $7m this season", while the reality is he was paid at a rate of $13m a season for 5 years. But, again, his agent structured the contract to provide him leverage.

They played the contract well, he earned a ton of money, and now they want one last dip in the pool. But let's not pretend hes "playing for below market value" because hes only making $7m this year. Hes making $7m this year because he was paid $22m in 2017 (most of any CB). He wanted the guaranteed cash up front, and now hes trying to leverage "below market value" on the back end. Hes not asking for "fair value". The contract he signed gave him fair value over 5 years.

Also, you say he wants fair value, but we have no idea what that is. He suffered a pretty serious quad injury last year. Hes on the wrong side of 30. Lets pretend you leased a car from a dealership for five years. On the 5th year, the transmission sounds like it's starting to go, but you know it'll probably last the year. Do you really want to sink money into new tires, oil, and brakes, or do you just ride it as is and move along to your next lease?

Of course Gilmore isnt an automobile - and as I stated above, I think hes a great corner and I'd try to extend him for an additional year - but we have no idea what value he'll actually provide this season. I see no reason to bump his pay this season - essentially changing his contract from 5/65 to 5/75 - with any type of guarantee.

If they want to add some extra bonuses to try and get him that cash? Sure. I think hes earned that. Games played, snap count, probowl, playoffs, INTs, tackles, allpro, SB, DPOY...whatever. Make them reasonable. If he gives us similar value as the last few years, then I'm fine with them spending that cap space to thank a player for his contributions. But, again, let's not pretend hes playing under market value.
 

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Maybe a V+N Post. But There seems to always be alot of support for these guys after they signed a contract. I get its a Dangerous game. And they need to make hay when the sun shines. And I would be (more) amenable to Younger and fringe guys getting more money. BUT at the end of the day No One held a gun to Gillys head. He signed a Lucrative top of the market deal. Just because now he is unhappy seems disingenuous. Do you feel similarly bad when an Owner gives out a 100 million dollars for a certain level of performance and then doesnt get anything close to that level? And there is no way for him to reneg on the agreement. I know that when a FA takes 4 million more a year to move somewhere else or 30 million more over 5 years we all Defend the decision that he has a right to get as much as he can. Thus proving that even with huge amounts of money a fraction (like 20 million on a 200 million contract) is important even to the wealthy. Why shouldnt it be so with the Owners as well?

I AM NOT saying Owners should be able to NOT pay a player. What I am saying is that I have a hard time feeling bad for Someone like Gilly. Both Parties signed a contract.....both should live up to it. Pipe dream in sports I know.

Anyway....not my money So yea if 5-8 million gets him back into the fold and we have no long term commitment for for his decline years sure Bob, write him a new check.
 

RedOctober3829

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A willingness to take a one-year deal might also be a positive sign, at least in terms of Gilmore's own appraisal of his health and ability to perform. If things looked a little shakier, he might be more inclined to demand a multi-year extension instead. Betting on himself might be a good deal for both parties here.
Or he’s realizing that the only way to get an extension is to prove he’s healthy. Take the one year bump, prove your health and worth, and get back at it next offseason. Nobody is going to give a 31 year old corner coming off a torn quad a long term, big money deal without seeing him play.
 

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Maybe a V+N Post. But There seems to always be alot of support for these guys after they signed a contract. I get its a Dangerous game. And they need to make hay when the sun shines. And I would be (more) amenable to Younger and fringe guys getting more money. BUT at the end of the day No One held a gun to Gillys head. He signed a Lucrative top of the market deal. Just because now he is unhappy seems disingenuous. Do you feel similarly bad when an Owner gives out a 100 million dollars for a certain level of performance and then doesnt get anything close to that level? And there is no way for him to reneg on the agreement. I know that when a FA takes 4 million more a year to move somewhere else or 30 million more over 5 years we all Defend the decision that he has a right to get as much as he can. Thus proving that even with huge amounts of money a fraction (like 20 million on a 200 million contract) is important even to the wealthy. Why shouldnt it be so with the Owners as well?

I AM NOT saying Owners should be able to NOT pay a player. What I am saying is that I have a hard time feeling bad for Someone like Gilly. Both Parties signed a contract.....both should live up to it. Pipe dream in sports I know.

Anyway....not my money So yea if 5-8 million gets him back into the fold and we have no long term commitment for for his decline years sure Bob, write him a new check.
Fair post here. Doesn't need to be in V&N.

I agree with your last paragraph. As to the others, nobody is feeling bad for Gilmore. He wants to be closer to market rate for his services, so he's trying to renegotiate the terms of the contract. Belichick (and GMs throughout the NFL) do the same thing with guys that are now overpaid for their contributions, often resulting in simply cutting them. All of this falls within the CBA. In fact, the CBA has specific "so...how many games do you have to play to get credit for this year on your contract" rules because it's acknowledged among players and teams that situations like this happen.

Some of us are advocating for the team to get him closer to market rate with an adjustment to the deal. Not because we feel bad for him, but because we want to seem him in the secondary.
 

bakahump

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Fair @Jimbodandy . However again I think the level we hold Ownership to and Players to is blurry. You mention "BB/GMs doing the same thing". Do they? They may attempt to renegotiate. A Player can then agree to that Renegotiation usually for longer years?? or some other "perk"....OR Both Parties live up to the previous agreement. IE maybe they cut the player (a player that KNEW they were cuttable) and (perhaps) get some financial restitution for that cut (again if in the previous Agreement). IE Guaranteed money. Wouldnt the owners doing the same thing basically be "I am not paying you 14 million per year. I will pay you 7 million. Or you can get nothing as I ignore the 3 million in guaranteed money that i still owe you."

You make a good point I hadnt thought of, that because there is language in the CBA that allows a player to sit for 8 games (or whatever) then it does seem to be Tacitly agreed upon that a player can use that leverage to renegotiate a new salary.

Based on the above an owner doing the same/similar thing might be "Well I am not going to pay you all 14 million if you refuse to take 7 million......but I will pay you 50-66% and you only need to play 50-66% of the games.(or whatever amount of the season a player has to play to get credit).

Though I doubt there is language that allows that LOL. :D
 

lexrageorge

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Fair @Jimbodandy . However again I think the level we hold Ownership to and Players to is blurry. You mention "BB/GMs doing the same thing". Do they? They may attempt to renegotiate. A Player can then agree to that Renegotiation usually for longer years?? or some other "perk"....OR Both Parties live up to the previous agreement. IE maybe they cut the player (a player that KNEW they were cuttable) and (perhaps) get some financial restitution for that cut (again if in the previous Agreement). IE Guaranteed money. Wouldnt the owners doing the same thing basically be "I am not paying you 14 million per year. I will pay you 7 million. Or you can get nothing as I ignore the 3 million in guaranteed money that i still owe you."

You make a good point I hadnt thought of, that because there is language in the CBA that allows a player to sit for 8 games (or whatever) then it does seem to be Tacitly agreed upon that a player can use that leverage to renegotiate a new salary.

Based on the above an owner doing the same/similar thing might be "Well I am not going to pay you all 14 million if you refuse to take 7 million......but I will pay you 50-66% and you only need to play 50-66% of the games.(or whatever amount of the season a player has to play to get credit).

Though I doubt there is language that allows that LOL. :D
It is indeed correct that Gilmore signed a contract knowing full well the amount he would get paid as well as the duration of that contract. In the case of sports where the entire contract is guaranteed (MLB, NBA, and NHL), the player should indeed be willing to go out and perform to that contract, even if he is considered vastly underpaid by the end of that contract.

The one consideration in the NFL, however, is that between the fact that most player contracts are not guaranteed, and the fact that the league's salary cap calculation encourages the use of "funny money" in the back end of the contract, I cannot really place blame on a player that does not want to play out the duration of his contract. Add to that the much greater probability of a career ending or career limiting injury for a player, and it's understandable why a player would try to use their available leverage to get more money out of the system.

As for your scenario of an owner paying for a partial season, it does happen with fringe players. Veteran salaries become guaranteed if the player is on the roster (or IR or PUP) for the first game of the season. Sometimes, players get cut right before that first game, and then get signed by the original team in Week 2. The team at that point essentially has a game-to-game option on that player for the rest of the season. There is risk that the player gets signed by another team in the interim, but we've seen Belichick do this with certain players, as have other teams.
 

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Good posts.

At the end of the day, this is a card that Gilmore has to play. Belichick isn't surprised. They'll negotiate. There isn't right vs. wrong IMO. It's about both parties doing what's in their best interests. And my hope is that they can find something that they both agree with, since a) I trust BFB, and b) I think that Gilmore is valuable to the team.
 

bakahump

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I can agree with that @Jimbodandy .

One final salvo.... Nothing either of you mention (Players being cut, Paying for partial games for fringe players, funny money etc etc) Violates a contract. Its all known and often expected but more importantly laid out that this COULD happen IN the Contract. A player could negotiate a Contract that prohibits being cut. If not in de jure then in de facto. A player could (and often do) limit the funny money. They sign these knowing that Being cut is an option. They sign knowing that "Funny Money" is tacked on that they COULD never see.
No where does Gilmore have an "Opt Out for more money Clause" in his contract.


And I certainly do understand that these guys (like all workers) should be trying to maximize their worth.



I think a contact like Gilmores while not unexpected does violate the spirit of the agreement. What does that mean in real life, at least sports/nfl "real life"? Nothing. He Can do so. The owners/gms expect it and as almost all of have agreed it will be worked out in both parties best interests. Often that means a raise.
 

joe dokes

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I can agree with that @Jimbodandy .

One final salvo.... Nothing either of you mention (Players being cut, Paying for partial games for fringe players, funny money etc etc) Violates a contract. Its all known and often expected but more importantly laid out that this COULD happen IN the Contract. A player could negotiate a Contract that prohibits being cut. If not in de jure then in de facto. A player could (and often do) limit the funny money. They sign these knowing that Being cut is an option. They sign knowing that "Funny Money" is tacked on that they COULD never see.
No where does Gilmore have an "Opt Out for more money Clause" in his contract.


And I certainly do understand that these guys (like all workers) should be trying to maximize their worth.



I think a contact like Gilmores while not unexpected does violate the spirit of the agreement. What does that mean in real life, at least sports/nfl "real life"? Nothing. He Can do so. The owners/gms expect it and as almost all of have agreed it will be worked out in both parties best interests. Often that means a raise.
In a old-timey legal sense, *all* contracts have an opt-out. Each side has two options--perform or breach, with the latter having consequences. I'm not trying to be flip, but just as Gilmore *could* say, "if your not paying I'm not playing," Kraft could say, "you suck I'm just not gonna pay you a single buck." (and also suffer consequences).
Sometimes breaching a contract is in the breacher's best interest. Its not necessarily a moral failing, it's a legal maneuver.
 

lexrageorge

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Their 4th, 5th, and 6th round draft choices.

McGrone had a season ending ACL injury in November and will probably end up with a redshirt year. Bledsoe was limited in minicamp as he underwent wrist surgery in the offseason, but it doesn't sound all that serious.

Information on Stevenson is harder to come by; he missed some of the minicamp sessions, and Fears made some comments about him still dealing with some injuries. And with the RB spot crowded with established vets, it's not inconceivable that the team is setting him for a redshirt season as well:

That all being said, the team seems to believe Stevenson is up to the task. "The thing that we like about the kid, he's a big kid. He's got great feet. Great athletic ability. He seems to have - seems to be a smart player," Fears relayed. "The guy has got a hell of a future for himself. But he's got to get it done. And we'll see when we get to training camp. Right now, things are going well. The guy is learning, he's working hard, he's fighting through a couple nagging things, but he's working his butt off and we're excited about that."
 

RedOctober3829

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Their 4th, 5th, and 6th round draft choices.

McGrone had a season ending ACL injury in November and will probably end up with a redshirt year. Bledsoe was limited in minicamp as he underwent wrist surgery in the offseason, but it doesn't sound all that serious.

Information on Stevenson is harder to come by; he missed some of the minicamp sessions, and Fears made some comments about him still dealing with some injuries. And with the RB spot crowded with established vets, it's not inconceivable that the team is setting him for a redshirt season as well:
The first thing I thought of is that Stevenson is taking the Harris route for his rookie year.
 

lexrageorge

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A number of those guys damn well need to be on the field if they don't want to end up unemployed. This roster isn't the 2020 roster.
It's pretty much par for the course; every training camp the team has at least a half dozen or more players start on PUP. In some cases, they come right off once they pass the initial conditioning test.

Hall had offseason ankle surgery. Both Winowich and Cowart missed the June minicamp with injuries that were described as "minor", and so will probably be activated soon. Keene's spot is vulnerable for sure.
 

5dice

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Quick sidebar question.
I have tickets to next Friday's practice and haven't been to one in years. Can anybody tell me the best way to enjoy it including kid alongside?
Thanks
 

Buck Showalter

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Quick sidebar question.
I have tickets to next Friday's practice and haven't been to one in years. Can anybody tell me the best way to enjoy it including kid alongside?
Thanks
Well it's going to be a different one this year.

I have attended the training camp (open to the public) each year for the last 20 while in the 'friends and family' section.

By way of someone that is part of the organization, I have met a countless number of players and coaches and media personalities. It's been a blast to bring my kids each year and see their pics (with the Pats stars) from little people, to teenaged, to young adults....

I will be attending the camp this Saturday morning, but have already been told that players won't be signing autographs, won't be communicating much (if at all) with the public and that "this" camp is going to be a "cautious one".

I'm guessing the same approach will be embraced when they move those workouts to the Gillette Field.

So keep the expectations low for the kids --- high-fives from a Patriot might not be experienced this time around.
 

5dice

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Well it's going to be a different one this year.

I have attended the training camp (open to the public) each year for the last 20 while in the 'friends and family' section.

By way of someone that is part of the organization, I have met a countless number of players and coaches and media personalities. It's been a blast to bring my kids each year and see their pics (with the Pats stars) from little people, to teenaged, to young adults....

I will be attending the camp this Saturday morning, but have already been told that players won't be signing autographs, won't be communicating much (if at all) with the public and that "this" camp is going to be a "cautious one".

I'm guessing the same approach will be embraced when they move those workouts to the Gillette Field.

So keep the expectations low for the kids --- high-fives from a Patriot might not be experienced this time around.
Thank you sir—that is helpful to set expectations.
 

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Finally... training camp! I'm so desperate for any Pats news that after reading Lazar's notes, I'm already checking out who Kristian Wilkerson is and how fast he runs a 40
 

Eddie Jurak

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Daily QB battle update (per BSJ): Mac wins day one.
Bedard continues to be President of the Mac Jones fan club.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/07/28/patriots-camp-report-bedard-mac-jones-strong-start

Mac Jones is coming: I don't really care what the final stats were, or any of the stats to be honest with you. If camp stats are your thing, remember what was said about Jarrett Stidham's rookie year stats. All I know is this: there was one quarterback on the field Wednesday that, on a vast majority of his reps, threw with anticipation, timing, touch and accuracy, and that quarterback was first-round pick Mac Jones. And it wasn't really close. Jones had some beautiful timing throws in a practice that dealt mostly with low red zone work and was clearly sort of a refresher on the first day. There was a corner route to Nelson Agholor. There was a throw to Sony Michel in traffic in the middle of the field that had no business being completed. A corner route to Kendrick Bourne was spectacular. A touch pass to Matt LaCosse, another to Marvin Hall, and a ridiculous laser to the back corner of the end zone to Gunner Olszewski. Jones even made N'Keal Harry look good.
 

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Sony caught the ball in traffic?

Edit: I also feel like maybe we should cut him for not audibling out of any play that had the ball going to LaCosse.
 
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