Pats Ongoing Salary Cap Discussion

[bsj]

I searched and didn't find a thread for general ongoing salary cap related topics.

Right now, the Pats need to create room to actually sign their draft class. There are likely two ways they can do this.

• 1- Trade Agholor...which would free up ~9 million but would also create a sizable $5 million dead money hold or
• 2- Restructure one or more salaries (Judon would likely be one) to convert more salary into bonus money

Or they could do both.

Ordinarily a $5 million dead hold would feel excessive, but as it is a single year, part of me wonders if its on the table. That said, if they truly are looking to move Harry (which itself would free up about $2 mill) they likely don't want to move Agholor as well.

 

[Super Nomario]

I searched and didn't find a thread for general ongoing salary cap related topics.

Right now, the Pats need to create room to actually sign their draft class. There are likely two ways they can do this.

• 1- Trade Agholor...which would free up ~9 million but would also create a sizable $5 million dead money hold or
• 2- Restructure one or more salaries (Judon would likely be one) to convert more salary into bonus money

Or they could do both.

Ordinarily a $5 million dead hold would feel excessive, but as it is a single year, part of me wonders if its on the table. That said, if they truly are looking to move Harry (which itself would free up about $2 mill) they likely don't want to move Agholor as well.

It doesn't really "create" a dead money hold - that's $5 MM that's on the cap this year no matter what they do. Keep Agholor, and his cap hit is nearly $15 MM; trade him, and it's just the $5. I think it comes down to whether they can trade Agholor, whether they think they can derive value from him that approximates his cap hit, and how much they value depth at WR. Right now they have no studs but four quality players; if they deal Agholor, the unit is only a little better than last year (the Agholor to Parker upgrade) and no deeper, though it would save money.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

It doesn't really "create" a dead money hold - that's $5 MM that's on the cap this year no matter what they do. Keep Agholor, and his cap hit is nearly $15 MM; trade him, and it's just the $5. I think it comes down to whether they can trade Agholor, whether they think they can derive value from him that approximates his cap hit, and how much they value depth at WR. Right now they have no studs but four quality players; if they deal Agholor, the unit is only a little better than last year (the Agholor to Parker upgrade) and no deeper, though it would save money.

Can Agholor play in the slot?

 

[Super Nomario]

Can Agholor play in the slot?

He has played a lot of his career in the slot, but the problem is the team's two best receivers from last year (Meyers and Bourne) also play in the slot.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

He has played a lot of his career in the slot, but the problem is the team's two best receivers from last year (Meyers and Bourne) also play in the slot.

My thought is Parker knocks Meyers out of the top 3.

 

[Super Nomario]

My thought is Parker knocks Meyers out of the top 3.

Meyers has been the #1 receiver the last two seasons, so that would be quite the fall from grace.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Meyers has been the #1 receiver the last two seasons, so that would be quite the fall from grace.

It's an interesting question though, because Meyers' production is very much a case of getting a ton of targets. Jakobi lead the team in catches (by a lot) and yards (not by a lot) last year, but his per target production was pretty bad. Wouldn't be a huge surprise to see those targets get spread to move productive guys.

 

[Super Nomario]

It's an interesting question though, because Meyers' production is very much a case of getting a ton of targets. Jakobi lead the team in catches (by a lot) and yards (not by a lot) last year, but his per target production was pretty bad. Wouldn't be a huge surprise to see those targets get spread to move productive guys.

Meyers' yards per target were low (6.9) last year, but very good in 2019 (8.8) and 2020 (9.0). And it's not like Parker (7.1) and Agholor (7.4) were dramatically more efficient on a per- target basis. I think it says something that Meyers got the most snaps and it never shifted at any point.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I searched and didn't find a thread for general ongoing salary cap related topics.

Right now, the Pats need to create room to actually sign their draft class. There are likely two ways they can do this.

• 1- Trade Agholor...which would free up ~9 million but would also create a sizable $5 million dead money hold or
• 2- Restructure one or more salaries (Judon would likely be one) to convert more salary into bonus money

Or they could do both.

Ordinarily a $5 million dead hold would feel excessive, but as it is a single year, part of me wonders if its on the table. That said, if they truly are looking to move Harry (which itself would free up about $2 mill) they likely don't want to move Agholor as well.

This is kind of a fruitless exercise.

For example - Agholor signed a 2 year contract. His hit is worth almost $15M this year.

Agholor signed a 2 year contract. The Pats could opt to "restructure" his contract for up to 5 years. They could add up to 3 void years to the deal. Doing so would spread his current hit of $15M this season to about $3.5M a year over the next 4 years (this season and 3 dead cap seasons).

That would drop Agholors hit from $15M this season to $3.5M a season for the next 4 years. It would add void years (3 years of 3.5m dead cap per season) but is easily doable if they need cap ASAP.

Or they could add 1 dead cap year and cut the hit from 15m this season to 7.5m this and next season. Or add 2 dead cap seasons and cut his hit from 15m this season to 5m the next 3 seasons.

Thats only one contract. They could do something like this with plenty of other contracts. And that says nothing about extensions, non-guaranteed cuts, etc.

In other words - don't sweat the cap.

 

[Super Nomario]

This is kind of a fruitless exercise.

For example - Agholor signed a 2 year contract. His hit is worth almost $15M this year.

Agholor signed a 2 year contract. The Pats could opt to "restructure" his contract for up to 5 years. They could add up to 3 void years to the deal. Doing so would spread his current hit of $15M this season to about $3.5M a year over the next 4 years (this season and 3 dead cap seasons).

That would drop Agholors hit from $15M this season to $3.5M a season for the next 4 years. It would add void years (3 years of 3.5m dead cap per season) but is easily doable if they need cap ASAP.

Or they could add 1 dead cap year and cut the hit from 15m this season to 7.5m this and next season. Or add 2 dead cap seasons and cut his hit from 15m this season to 5m the next 3 seasons.

Thats only one contract. They could do something like this with plenty of other contracts. And that says nothing about extensions, non-guaranteed cuts, etc.

In other words - don't sweat the cap.

I know it's just one example, but there's a lot wrong here, and some of the reasons it's wrong show some of the issues with this method. First of all, adding void years is technically an extension, not a restructure, and thus Agholor has to agree to it. Second of all, you can't spread the full $15 MM because $5 MM of it is already pro-rated bonus money. The $5 MM stays no matter what, so the best you can do is spread the remaining $10 MM over five years, getting his cap hit down to $7 MM - and really, you can't even do that, because there's a minimum salary of $1 MM, so the lowest cap hit would be a little less than $8 MM (using round numbers for ease, but you get the idea).

This is one example of course, but the general significance is there's a chunk that you can't manipulate, and the more you manipulate the manipulatable part, the bigger the un-manipulatable chunk gets. So using this method occasionally to clear space is one thing; using it repeatedly is how you get Matt Ryan's $40 MM dead hit this year.

The other downside to this is you eliminate the possibility of clearing space via trade. If the Patriots can trade Agholor right now, they get rid of the $5 MM guaranteed salary and ~5 MM non-guaranteed as well. If they convert the money to bonus, they're stuck with it even if they cut or trade Agholor.

 

[Saints Rest]

Some other possible sources of cap space without pushing any money into 2023:

• Cut Harry -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Wilson -- Cap savings about $2.5M
• Cut Davis -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Tavai -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Stidham -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Ekuale -- Cap savings about $1M

Then there are some guys who are in last years of contract who BB might see as worth extending. Guys like Wynn, Meyers, or Jon Jones.

And then of course, the obvious restructure candidates: Judon, Henry, Agholor, etc

 

[Super Nomario]

Some other possible sources of cap space without pushing any money into 2023:

• Cut Harry -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Wilson -- Cap savings about $2.5M
• Cut Davis -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Tavai -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Stidham -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Ekuale -- Cap savings about $1M

Right now they're in the top-51 period, so cutting these guys doesn't save as much money as you indicate here. Cutting Stidham, for instance, actually saves you nothing; you get his $965K salary off the books, but then he's replaced on the top-51 by Devine Ozigbo, who also has a $965 K salary. Basically you can subtract about $1 MM from each of these.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I know it's just one example, but there's a lot wrong here, and some of the reasons it's wrong show some of the issues with this method. First of all, adding void years is technically an extension, not a restructure, and thus Agholor has to agree to it. Second of all, you can't spread the full $15 MM because $5 MM of it is already pro-rated bonus money. The $5 MM stays no matter what, so the best you can do is spread the remaining $10 MM over five years, getting his cap hit down to $7 MM - and really, you can't even do that, because there's a minimum salary of $1 MM, so the lowest cap hit would be a little less than $8 MM (using round numbers for ease, but you get the idea).

This is one example of course, but the general significance is there's a chunk that you can't manipulate, and the more you manipulate the manipulatable part, the bigger the un-manipulatable chunk gets. So using this method occasionally to clear space is one thing; using it repeatedly is how you get Matt Ryan's $40 MM dead hit this year.

The other downside to this is you eliminate the possibility of clearing space via trade. If the Patriots can trade Agholor right now, they get rid of the $5 MM guaranteed salary and ~5 MM non-guaranteed as well. If they convert the money to bonus, they're stuck with it even if they cut or trade Agholor.

Yup.

I'm actually impressed with myself for typing that all out after 10 beers, despite it being largely wrong.

Signing bonuses are already prorated, so that $5M can't move.

You cited that Agholor would need to agree to the restructure. Is there any reason a player wouldn't other than trying to get some extra money by helping the team out? I can't think of any.

 

[lexrageorge]

Yup.

I'm actually impressed with myself for typing that all out after 10 beers, despite it being largely wrong.

Signing bonuses are already prorated, so that $5M can't move.

You cited that Agholor would need to agree to the restructure. Is there any reason a player wouldn't other than trying to get some extra money by helping the team out? I can't think of any.

I can think of a couple of reasons why Agholor or any other player in his situation would not necessarily agree to the extension with void years.

For one, the contract becomes less tradeable; the receiving team would be stuck with a player with void years and there could be some cap complications they inherit as a result. And the Pats would be stuck with a larger dead cap number, which basically makes any trade moot. So, I can see a player saying "Hey, the Pats signed me to this contract; if they want to do this funny business with void years, I'd just assume they trade me now or let me test the market next season".

A player like Agholor, who expects to have a market for his services in 2023, would also want some up front money before agreeing to any extension. That's just business as usual for a player in Agholor's position. Brady got some up front coin for agreeing to the void years in his last extension with the Pats. And, again, the Pats would have to account for that money somehow. The issue then becomes can Agholor and his agent agree with the Pats on the up front amount that makes an extension worthwhile. That's usually where extension talks break down.

 

[BigJimEd]

Some other possible sources of cap space without pushing any money into 2023:

• Cut Harry -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Wilson -- Cap savings about $2.5M
• Cut Davis -- Cap savings about $1.8M
• Cut Tavai -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Stidham -- Cap savings about $1M
• Cut Ekuale -- Cap savings about $1M

Then there are some guys who are in last years of contract who BB might see as worth extending. Guys like Wynn, Meyers, or Jon Jones.

And then of course, the obvious restructure candidates: Judon, Henry, Agholor, etc

About a third of Harry's salary is guaranteed so the Pats would only save about $1.2M by releasing him. Although a trade would save them $1.8M

 

[BigJimEd]

This is kind of a fruitless exercise.

For example - Agholor signed a 2 year contract. His hit is worth almost $15M this year.

Agholor signed a 2 year contract. The Pats could opt to "restructure" his contract for up to 5 years. They could add up to 3 void years to the deal. Doing so would spread his current hit of $15M this season to about $3.5M a year over the next 4 years (this season and 3 dead cap seasons).

That would drop Agholors hit from $15M this season to $3.5M a season for the next 4 years. It would add void years (3 years of 3.5m dead cap per season) but is easily doable if they need cap ASAP.

Or they could add 1 dead cap year and cut the hit from 15m this season to 7.5m this and next season. Or add 2 dead cap seasons and cut his hit from 15m this season to 5m the next 3 seasons.

Thats only one contract. They could do something like this with plenty of other contracts. And that says nothing about extensions, non-guaranteed cuts, etc.

In other words - don't sweat the cap.

Also in addition to what Super Nomario stated, it is important to note that when the contract does void the remaining prorated bonus is accelerated to that year's cap. So in that example, you have 3 void years (2023-2025) of $3.5m per season. When the deal is voided in 2023, then that becomes 10.5m in dead money on the 2023 cap.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Also in addition to what Super Nomario stated, it is important to note that when the contract does void the remaining prorated bonus is accelerated to that year's cap. So in that example, you have 3 void years (2023-2025) of $3.5m per season. When the deal is voided in 2023, then that becomes 10.5m in dead money on the 2023 cap.

I thought it could carry over prorated for the next two seasons as a dead cap hit at 3.5m a season, no?

 

[Mystic Merlin]

I thought it could carry over prorated for the next two seasons as a dead cap hit at 3.5m a season, no?

I think the remaining value of the bonus accelerates to the cap upon the effective date of the first void year, similarly to if the player was released with remaining signing bonus or guaranteed dollars that had not been accounted for under the cap yet.

 

[BigJimEd]

I think the remaining value of the bonus accelerates to the cap upon the effective date of the first void year, similarly to if the player was released with remaining signing bonus or guaranteed dollars that had not been accounted for under the cap yet.

Yes that is my understanding as well.

Teams are allowed to spread the cap hit over two seasons for players released after June 1st. There is a loop hole that teams can designate up to two players as Post June 1st cuts even if they were released prior to that day. But I believe only applies to players released and only allows to spread hit over two seasons not the three years mentioned in the previous example.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Yes that is my understanding as well.

Teams are allowed to spread the cap hit over two seasons for players released after June 1st. There is a loop hole that teams can designate up to two players as Post June 1st cuts even if they were released prior to that day. But I believe only applies to players released and only allows to spread hit over two seasons not the three years mentioned in the previous example.

Why 2 seasons? I thought it was for up to 5 total seasons (if they're signed for 4 years they can add 1 year, if they're signed for 2 years, they can add 3)?

 

[Super Nomario]

Why 2 seasons? I thought it was for up to 5 total seasons (if they're signed for 4 years they can add 1 year, if they're signed for 2 years, they can add 3)?

5 years max when you sign 'em, not when you cut/ trade 'em (1 year or 2 if post-6/1).

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

5 years max when you sign 'em, not when you cut/ trade 'em (1 year or 2 if post-6/1).

Right. But what about an agreed restructure like in the example above?

 

[BigJimEd]

Right. But what about an agreed restructure like in the example above?

Same idea. 5 years max at signing but as soon as the contract voids, any remaining cap hits are accelerated onto that year.