Pats offense: Ongoing discussion

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
I guess building off what I just wrote I get why they thought zagging and going bulldozer, 12, and heavier against lighter faster defenses made some sense but that only works if your tight ends are special. You need one of those tight ends to be a very good in-line blocker. Jonnu is 6-3 248. Henry isn’t a blocker. So you paid two guys huge amounts of money to execute a concept that requires an in-line role that neither can do.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
Jakobi Meyers's quest to score a touchdown took another Kafkaesque twist yesterday.

1. His streak of catches without a touchdown pass is up to 126 over a span of 36 games in which he has actually thrown 2 TD passes.
2. He did catch a touchdown pass in the second quarter, only to have it called back due to a holding penalty.
3. In the 4th quarter, he caught a key scoring pass from Mac Jones - but it was a 2-point conversion instead of a touchdown. He caught one of those last year, too, so he has 4 career points, but no touchdowns.
4. The fact that Mac Jones is not throwing a lot of TD passes (just 7 through 6 games) and the team is running a Wildcat set with Mac split out wide at the goal line raises the small but real possibility that Mac will catch a TD pass before Jakobi does.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
Cajuste got himself benched with that strip sack, leading to Onwenu coming in at RT.

Maybe Onwenu at RT will be the way forward? Ferentz is pretty bad, but Karras has been pretty good.

Is the best Pats OL (without Brown) Wynn/Herron-Karras-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu? In the unlikely event that Brown returns healthy, should he work back in at LT instead of RT?
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
Offensive bright spots from this game.
  • The "air yards" people should be happy with Mac, who took a few downfield shots and hit most/all of them. Stevenson for 22, Ahgolor for 27, Meyers for 25 and a score called back due to holding call, Bourne for 75. I don't think any of his incompletions were a missed shot deep. Coming back from a pick 6 with the shot for a 75 yard TD was nice, too.
  • Damien Harris had a nice running game despite an obvious injury
  • Rhamondre Stevenson flashed some real skills. Five carries for 23 yards and a short TD was good, and he also flashed some receiving skills. Not that many big back types who are comfortable being downfiued receivers, but Rhamondre went out for a 22 yard pass. Also showed some nice open field running on a pass to him in the flat. This guy looks like a real keeper.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
28,842
Hingham, MA
Cajuste got himself benched with that strip sack, leading to Onwenu coming in at RT.

Maybe Onwenu at RT will be the way forward? Ferentz is pretty bad, but Karras has been pretty good.

Is the best Pats OL (without Brown) Wynn/Herron-Karras-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu? In the unlikely event that Brown returns healthy, should he work back in at LT instead of RT?
Wynn has been bad too. Without Brown I think it may be Herron-Karras-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu.

If Brown returns, I agree with moving him back to LT.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
Disappointing thing about the offense (and the 2020 draft):

Jonnu is not running many pass routes because the Pats are holding him in to block so often, which he does better than Henry but not that great. Meanwhile, Asiasi has yet to even dress. That suggests that at best, his blocking is worse than Jonnu's.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
Evan Lazar, seemingly unironically, wrote something that makes no sense to me last week:

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-mailbag-anemic-rushing-attack-wasnt-part-of-the-plan-for-patriots-offense/

Rookie quarterback Mac Jones was hit 27 times in the first five games, which is the third-most in the NFL, and New England’s O-Line hasn’t handled blitzes particularly well.

However, frustrations with the offensive line in pass protection are misguided. The Pats are slightly above league-average pass protection based on PFF and ESPN metrics (see chart above).
How can all of these be true? The offensive line is slightly above-average, but cannot handle blitzes and is getting the QB killed? That doesn't add up to me. I suppsoe a QB holding the ball too long could be an explanation, but Mac gets the ball out fast.
 

Cotillion

lurker
Jun 11, 2019
1,575
Evan Lazar, seemingly unironically, wrote something that makes no sense to me last week:

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-mailbag-anemic-rushing-attack-wasnt-part-of-the-plan-for-patriots-offense/

How can all of these be true? The offensive line is slightly above-average, but cannot handle blitzes and is getting the QB killed? That doesn't add up to me. I suppsoe a QB holding the ball too long could be an explanation, but Mac gets the ball out fast.
I could see that as when the O-line executes... they are really good... but they have huge lapses that often result in many free runners that end up getting Mac killed...
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
23,634
Evan Lazar, seemingly unironically, wrote something that makes no sense to me last week:

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazars-mailbag-anemic-rushing-attack-wasnt-part-of-the-plan-for-patriots-offense/

How can all of these be true? The offensive line is slightly above-average, but cannot handle blitzes and is getting the QB killed? That doesn't add up to me. I suppsoe a QB holding the ball too long could be an explanation, but Mac gets the ball out fast.
I would assume it's that they are doing well on non-blitz plays, and that on blitz plays the failures are often coming from the backs and TEs. Also, Mac doesn't always get the ball out quick, and he doesn't evade the rush well, hence the hits. A lot of really bad lines give up fewer hits because their QB escapes the pocket.

Edit- honestly that is around what I think is probably true. There are issues on the line, but comparing them to some of the true garbage lines like NYG, IND, CAR, ATL there are less of the quick pressure without a blitz plays.
 
Last edited:

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
They ran both of their first two TD drives out of 12 yesterday. Then BB said, basically, they ran out of plays in that formation - couldn't run the same stuff over and over again. I wonder if they can't because they were using the TEs to help out in pass pro so they couldn't say shift them both out wide or into the slot or put one of them in motion, etc. Or if neither guy is fully integrated in the offense? So, if we want a positive it's that their first two drives in 12 looked great.

I wonder if they use more window dressing and have more plays when the pass pro from the OL settles down and/or the offense has more time to just learn stuff for lack of better words.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
28,842
Hingham, MA
Yeah 12 was supposed to be a strength, then it stunk weeks 1-5. If they can make it a bigger, more successful part of the offense that bodes well going forward.

Red zone execution has also improved the last two weeks, as has the running game. The O line continues to get healthier.

Overall, I like where this offense is headed.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
73,293
Oregon
View: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1449042981839900676


This is interesting, as you get deeper in the thread a bunch of people who are smart (including Mina Kimes which brought it to my attention) are discussing that the Patriots just don't have any interest in running RPO stuff. Not just a Mac thing, they only ran 13 RPO actions with Cam last year (5 in the SEA game... which was his best game). Lazar has a quote in there where McDaniels basically says... we might run it in certain matchups, but mostly... yeah we don't really plan to use it.

This seems weird to me. RPO actions are popular because.... they work. Mac did well with them in college, Cam did well with them. Seems bizaare when your offense struggles to basically not use a tool that much of the league uses to give their QB better looks.

It really feels like the Patriots (Josh particualrly) were way ahead of the curve 12-15 years ago... but now they have stagnated and they're behind most of the league.
I'm certainly no expert on this type of stuff, but couldn't the lack of RPO plays in the offense be a combination of organizational reluctance and the other 10 guys on the field beyond Mac? They're having a hard enough time in protection and route separation in the standard Patriots playbook. Is there any reason to believe that their skills would translate better for RPO plays?
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
I'm certainly no expert on this type of stuff, but couldn't the lack of RPO plays in the offense be a combination of organizational reluctance and the other 10 guys on the field beyond Mac? They're having a hard enough time in protection and route separation in the standard Patriots playbook. Is there any reason to believe that their skills would translate better for RPO plays?
In the simplest version of an RPO, everyone on the offense plays it like a running play except for one receiver who runs a slant. Befgore handing the ball off, the QB reads whether receiver's defender has come up in run support (in which case he throws to the open receiver) or stays with the receiver (in which case he hands the ball off). I would imagine that is something the Patrios can do if they want to - it doesn't seem more risky or difficult thart the other things the line is trying and failing to do.

Maybe BB and McDaniels have some reason to not want to do it. Maybe they are working on it/saving it for later in the year when it won;t be expected. Maybe they just don't have it installed yet. We'll see.

Evan Lazar wrote about how conservative the Patrios went in the aftermath of the fumble.

https://www.clnsmedia.com/lazar-ten-things-we-learned-from-the-patriots-overtime-loss-to-the-cowboys/

Here are the results of six second-and-third quarter drives after McDaniels tightened up the play-calling. Excluding the kneel down at the end of the half, the Pats had three three-and-outs and ran 18 plays for 72 yards on those five drives (four yards per play).

As a result, Dallas ran 82 plays to the Patriots’ 50 offensive plays and a New England defense that held tough through three quarters ran out of gas in the fourth quarter and overtime.
Even before the fumble, the Patriots offense moved the ball quickly and did not run many plays/rack up significant possession time. I think part of the defense's problem, beyond being overmatched to begin with, was being left out on the field for so long. I think this game looks different if the Pats had mananged a long slow drive, even for a field goal, at some point.

Lazar noted something else interesting. And concerning?

https://www.clnsmedia.com/advanced-stats-report-pats-qb-mac-jones-delivers-strong-performance-in-loss-to-cowboys/

Despite having success with it early on, the Patriots also went away from their two tight end sets that averaged 5.8 yards per play and two touchdowns in the first quarter. After the first quarter, the Pats only operated out of those packages on 35% of their offensive plays.

“When you go into a game with an alternative group, like the big people, it’s not like you go in there with like 25 plays. Sometimes the shelf life on that doesn’t last forever,” head coach Bill Belichick said.
Really, BB?
Despite only 23 drop-backs and an average time to throw of 2.24 seconds, Jones was still under pressure on 34.8% of his passing plays. Plus, it took Cowboys pass-rusher Randy Gregory 2.45 and 2.5 seconds on his two sacks to get to Jones. Good luck looking downfield there.
This is why I don't get how the OL can grade out as average.
 
Last edited:

GB5

lurker
Aug 26, 2013
169
How exactly can you run out of plays in a formation in a game when you ran so few plays. Too lazy to check but I imagine even this being an OT game, that this was amongst the fewest amount of offensive plays they have run in a game in quite a while.
 

GB5

lurker
Aug 26, 2013
169
When was the last time you have ever heard a coach say they ran out of plays in a certain formation even in a game when you are running 70 plus plays.

the used the same formation for three straight plays in the 13-3 win over the Rams in the SB. They just ran different plays out of that. You can’t do that out of a 12 formation?
 

Willie Clay's Big Play

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2017
281
It’s been a long night, but would it be directionally correct to say that they could extract more plays from a similar sample size of plays with TFB than they could with Mac?
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
30,508
They ran both of their first two TD drives out of 12 yesterday. Then BB said, basically, they ran out of plays in that formation - couldn't run the same stuff over and over again. I wonder if they can't because they were using the TEs to help out in pass pro so they couldn't say shift them both out wide or into the slot or put one of them in motion, etc. Or if neither guy is fully integrated in the offense? So, if we want a positive it's that their first two drives in 12 looked great.

I wonder if they use more window dressing and have more plays when the pass pro from the OL settles down and/or the offense has more time to just learn stuff for lack of better words.
I think BB is referring to OL guys like Cajuste playing TE in some jumbo packages. They don't have a lot of plays for that grouping, and the 6th OL/TE can't flex out wide or go in motion much. Someone would have to watch all the snaps to discern who was actually the 2nd TE on plays.
 
Last edited:

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
13,477
Mansfield MA
It’s been a long night, but would it be directionally correct to say that they could extract more plays from a similar sample size of plays with TFB than they could with Mac?
Maybe / probably, but the experience of the skill players matters, too. Henry, Smith, Agholor, Bourne, and Stevenson are all new. In the Erhardt / Perkins system, you can run the same play out of many different formations and personnel groups, but probably not all these guys have mastered enough of the playbook to be that dynamic with it. If we were talking the 2018 offense with Brady, Edelman, Gronk, White, Develin, etc., I'm sure they could have figured out another dozen or two plays.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
9,839
NH
That’s just insane to me. Running out of plays? Run it again. Change one of the routes. Run to the other side. You’re telling me that professional football players can’t handle adjustments on any given play and be expected to run them correctly? Especially when that formation has been effective during the game?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
13,624
That’s just insane to me. Running out of plays? Run it again. Change one of the routes. Run to the other side. You’re telling me that professional football players can’t handle adjustments on any given play and be expected to run them correctly? Especially when that formation has been effective during the game?
It's not quite that simple. IIRC, teams have about 70 or 80 plays drawn up for each game. Some number of those are special situation plays (goal line, obligatory handoff/toss to Bolden on 3rd-and-long, etc.). And they do want to have plays ready for multiple different formations. Then when they have to scrap some plays out of that formation because the OL is sucking ass, the number of plays in a given formation is reduced further.

IIRC, a similar problem happened in a game in 2019. The Pats lost some receivers due to injury during the game, and so some of the personnel packages had to be scrapped altogether, and that limited the number of plays they could call. And that was with Brady.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
9,839
NH
It's not quite that simple. IIRC, teams have about 70 or 80 plays drawn up for each game. Some number of those are special situation plays (goal line, obligatory handoff/toss to Bolden on 3rd-and-long, etc.). And they do want to have plays ready for multiple different formations. Then when they have to scrap some plays out of that formation because the OL is sucking ass, the number of plays in a given formation is reduced further.

IIRC, a similar problem happened in a game in 2019. The Pats lost some receivers due to injury during the game, and so some of the personnel packages had to be scrapped altogether, and that limited the number of plays they could call. And that was with Brady.
If it were due to injury and lack of personnel to line up in the same formation that’s one thing. To have everyone available and abandon a personnel grouping that was winning you the game is surprising to me at this level of play. Especially in a game that could turn the season around.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
Edit: going to spoiler this because I need to tighten my definitions. Post under construction.
Something I know multiple folks here including me, and IIRC some in the sports media have talked about is how today a lot of the top 2 top 4 teams have at least 2 top/elite receivers and/or pass catchers and many times have a 3rd guy who is also very good or at least above average/mismatch advantage taker.

I’ll base this on who made the championship games. I am also leaving out a ton of good role players or solid depth guys. I'll stop it at 2013 but N.B. Seattle was a run heavy team when they won their SB and lost vs the Pats.

Top 4 teams:

2020
Bucs: 3 elite: Godwin, AB, Evans. 1 VG: Gronk 4 total
Chiefs: 2 elite: Hill, Kelce. 1 VG: Watkins 3 total
Bills: 1 elite: Diggs 2 VG: Beasley, Brown 3 total
Packers: 1 elite: Adams 1 VG: Tonyan 2 total

2019:
Chiefs: 2 elite: Hill, Kelce. 1 VG: Watkins 3 total
SF: 2 elite: Deebo, Kittle. 1 VG: Sanders 3 total
TEN: 1 elite: Brown. 1 VG: Davis 2 total
MIN: 2 elite: Theilen, Diggs 1 VG: Cook 3 total

2018:
NE: 1-2 elite: Gronk, Edelman 1-2 VG: Edelman, White (Struggled how to categorize Edelman) 3 total
LAR: 3 elite: Woods, Kupp, Cooks. 1 VG: Gurley 4 total
KC: 2 elite: Hill, Kelce. 2 VG: Watkins, Hunt. 4 total
NO: 2 elite: Thomas, Kamara 2 total

2017:
PHL: 1 elite: Ertz 2 VG: Agholor, Jeffery 3 total
NE: 2 elite: Gronk, Cooks. 2 VG: Dola, White 4 total
MIN: 2 elite: Theilen, Diggs 1 VG: Cook 3 total
JAX: 0 Elite. 0-3 VG: Allen Hurns, Marquis Lee, Keelan Cole. (I struggled with 2017 JAX) 0-3 total

2016:
NEP: 1-2 elite: Marty B, Edelman (Gronk injured). 1-2 VG: Edelman, White. (And on top of that you had Dola, Hogan, and Mitchell!) 3 total
ATL: 1 elite: Julio 1 VG: Sanu 2 total
PIT: 2 elite: AB, Brown 2 total
GB: 2 elite: Nelson, Adams 1 VG: Cobb 3 total

2015:
DEN: 2 elite: D. Thomas, E. Sanders. 1 VG: Daniels 3 total
CAR: 1 elite: Olsen. 0-1 VG: Ginn Jr. (debatable here but he was a decent deep threat that year) 2 total
ARI: 1-2 elite: Fitz, John Brown 1-2 VG: John Brown, Floyd 3 total
NEP: 1-2 elite: Gronk, Edelman. 2-3 VG: Edelman, White, Dola 4 total

2014:
NEP: 1-2 elite: Gronk, Edelman. 2-4 VG: Edelman, LaFell, Dola, Vereen. 5 total
SEA: 0-1 elite: Baldwin. 1-2 VG: Baldwin, Kearse. 2 total
GB: 2 elite: Nelson, Cobb 1 VG: Adams 3 total
IND: 2 elite: Hilton, Fleener 1 VG: Wayne 3 total


2013:
SEA: 0-2 elite: Tate, Baldwin 0-2 VG: Tate, Baldwin 2 total
DEN: 2-3 elite: D. Thomas, Decker, J. Thomas 2-3 VG: J. Thomas, Welker, Moreno 5 total
NEP: 0-1 elite: Edelman 1-2 VG: Edelman, Vereen 2 total
SF: 2 elite: Boldin, V. Davis 2 total

32 teams listed. Of those only 1 definitely had 0 elite guys, 2017 JAX. JAX was a bit of a Cinderella team and a fluke. They never got back. The 2013-2014 Seahawks were primarily known for the LoB but had peak Tate and Baldwin - and their numbers would have been higher had the Seahawks thrown the ball more.

The Patriots have 5 guys who could possibly be in that very good tier: Henry, Smith, Agholor, Bourne, Meyers. None of those guys will be elite. So high end talent wise the Patriots are lacking a guy the opposing defense is going to fear. If it were me I would look at the X position as the biggest area of opportunity. Your best receiver on the team is Meyers. He's an inside only guy so in 12 you need an X. Agholor is the X now and while he has some good traits like his vertical ability he isn't a dynamic guy and he certainly isn't elite. They could really use a dynamic elite WR who can play X but also move around. A guy like AJ Brown for example. I think they need a high end receiving talent of some sort anyway. The problem is they don't have a lot of cap room in 2021 or 2022 to do it unless they traded draft capital for a guy under his rookie contract. But they can't really do that with the number of needs they have for next year and their cap room. I think the offense is going to have enough guys to be competitive for the playoffs or in the hunt for them but I do not think this is a championship caliber offense without additions that probably won't come until 2023. I could be wrong but that's my take on it.
 
Last edited:

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,672
Worcester
TD scoring in the red zone percentage is now higher than last year's total. They are at 58% for the year (54% last year), and 76% over the last 3 weeks. A 6-6 does help things (after last week they were 44% for the year). I think having a legit threat off a play fake near the goal line in Henry is just going to make that number keep going up.
 

IdiotKicker

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2005
7,592
Somerville, MA
I said in the game ball thread that I thought they were a better team with Johnson in the game. Further review cements that. I want him blowing dudes up out of the backfield. I like this particular team in 21 personnel better than any other setup, especially since I don’t think you get a major blocking boost from going 12 with a TE or both inline. These TEs are much better as receiving options, and so I think it’s a pretty versatile setup in either 21 or 22 in terms of maintaining receiving options while still getting a more effective lead blocker in Johnson. He’s taken a few years to develop, but the guy just opens holes whenever he gets a chance to do so.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
23,634
Fears on the RBs:
not too surpising, they have room for 3 active HBs, and it's going to be a week to week battle for the last spot between the two young guys. If Gunner ever got hurt maybe Taylor could make it some weeks as a return specialist, but otherwise I'd assume this is going to be the pattern all year.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
28,842
Hingham, MA
not too surpising, they have room for 3 active HBs, and it's going to be a week to week battle for the last spot between the two young guys. If Gunner ever got hurt maybe Taylor could make it some weeks as a return specialist, but otherwise I'd assume this is going to be the pattern all year.
I bet Stevenson is active this week against the porous Chargers run D.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
I said in the game ball thread that I thought they were a better team with Johnson in the game. Further review cements that. I want him blowing dudes up out of the backfield. I like this particular team in 21 personnel better than any other setup, especially since I don’t think you get a major blocking boost from going 12 with a TE or both inline. These TEs are much better as receiving options, and so I think it’s a pretty versatile setup in either 21 or 22 in terms of maintaining receiving options while still getting a more effective lead blocker in Johnson. He’s taken a few years to develop, but the guy just opens holes whenever he gets a chance to do so.
Can Johnson play any TE? Obviously he's not going to do Jonnu Smith/Hunter Henry things, but the Pats have used a lot of blocking only TEs over the years.
 

IdiotKicker

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2005
7,592
Somerville, MA
Can Johnson play any TE? Obviously he's not going to do Jonnu Smith/Hunter Henry things, but the Pats have used a lot of blocking only TEs over the years.
Off the top of my head, I think the few times they line him up inline, they predominantly motion him into the backfield for whams and similar schemes. Just from a footwork and leverage perspective there’s a big difference in even being able to get a couple steps under you heading into a block versus taking on a guy immediately, but it’s a worthwhile question to ask. Size/movement-wise he kind of reminds me of Hooman, so maybe it’s something he could develop for greater versatility.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
(I put this in the Gameball thread, but it probably should be here instead.)

David Andrews deserves something bigger than a game ball. A) he's been there each and every game, even when all the other starters were out. B) he's kept the line improving even thru all the various issues. C) he continues to show outstanding leadership both on the field and off in terms of supporting Mac Jones (he regularly has praised MJ in the press all the way back to training camp, and he was the first one sticking up for him when Tillery took that cheap shot post-whistle yesterday). And D) his own play has been pretty consistently strong all season.

As has been noted, the last couple games has seen the O-Line making big improvements. Onwenu back at RT has helped. Getting Shaq back has helped. Karras has been pretty outstanding. Wynn/Herron at LT continue to have issues: Wynn's issues seem to be about consistency mainly -- he can look great then loo awful; Herron I think just isn't any better than a backup. If Brown returns, do they try him back at LT?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
28,842
Hingham, MA
(I put this in the Gameball thread, but it probably should be here instead.)

David Andrews deserves something bigger than a game ball. A) he's been there each and every game, even when all the other starters were out. B) he's kept the line improving even thru all the various issues. C) he continues to show outstanding leadership both on the field and off in terms of supporting Mac Jones (he regularly has praised MJ in the press all the way back to training camp, and he was the first one sticking up for him when Tillery took that cheap shot post-whistle yesterday). And D) his own play has been pretty consistently strong all season.

As has been noted, the last couple games has seen the O-Line making big improvements. Onwenu back at RT has helped. Getting Shaq back has helped. Karras has been pretty outstanding. Wynn/Herron at LT continue to have issues: Wynn's issues seem to be about consistency mainly -- he can look great then loo awful; Herron I think just isn't any better than a backup. If Brown returns, do they try him back at LT?
I am so grateful that he signed here. He’s an all-time Patriot. Should probably go in the ring of honor when he retires.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
19,939
Philadelphia
I am so grateful that he signed here. He’s an all-time Patriot. Should probably go in the ring of honor when he retires.
Totally agree.

Andrews' story with the Pats isn't over yet but ultimately I think him and Dan Koppen will be viewed very similarly. Two really important players and quiet leaders on teams that won multiple titles.
 

heavyde050

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2006
8,258
San Francisco
I am so grateful that he signed here. He’s an all-time Patriot. Should probably go in the ring of honor when he retires.
Yeah. Andrews is so great. He was the biggest missing piece in Brady's last year. Losing him was a tremendous blow to the line. I am glad Andrews is healthy again.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,672
Worcester
I would be interested in seeing/finding out if the Chargers were more single high in this game bringing a safety down into the box - where they had predominantly been a 2 deep team. If the thought was "see single high, attack deep", then I can get the amount of down the field shots that they took. It doesn't excuse not trying at least 1 run from the 1 in the first half... but fortunately, it didn't come back to hurt them.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
33,411
Melrose, MA
The only caveat I would suggest is that the tackle to guard shift is not for everyone. Marcus Cannon was a good tackle who wasn't great at guard and Onwenu, too, seems better at tackle than guard. No guarantees that Wynn could handle guard.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,672
Worcester
Wynn played guard at Georgia before switching to tackle his senior year. I am not discounting your observations, but it wouldn't be plunking someone into a position with no experience.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
There’s also a decent chance that the Pats 1st round pick in April will be a LT, so Wynn to LG could be a thing for a year plus.
Philosophically they like to keep guys at their positions if at all possible so I am skeptical they make that move. I think that’s why they waited so long to move Onwenu to RT.
You’re right of course that if they draft an LT Wynn might find himself at LG next year but he’s probably their best LT right now unless Brown comes back (I still haven’t lost hope he comes back for the stretch).
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Philosophically they like to keep guys at their positions if at all possible so I am skeptical they make that move. I think that’s why they waited so long to move Onwenu to RT.
You’re right of course that if they draft an LT Wynn might find himself at LG next year but he’s probably their best LT right now unless Brown comes back (I still haven’t lost hope he comes back for the stretch).
I was responding to the idea proffered above that when (if?) Brown comes back, they should put Trent at LT and slide Wynn to LG, which triggered the response that Wynn might only be there for a handful of games having to move back to LT if Brown leaves as FA. Whatever happens this year, if Brown leaves, then I think the Pats will be looking LT in first round next year.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
I was responding to the idea proffered above that when (if?) Brown comes back, they should put Trent at LT and slide Wynn to LG, which triggered the response that Wynn might only be there for a handful of games having to move back to LT if Brown leaves as FA. Whatever happens this year, if Brown leaves, then I think the Pats will be looking LT in first round next year.
If that is the case I wonder if Wynn gets benched for the rest of the year. Not ideal but he hasn’t played well and they are in competition for a WC spot. That fifth year option gamble doesn’t look like it is panning out, does it?
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
13,477
Mansfield MA
If that is the case I wonder if Wynn gets benched for the rest of the year. Not ideal but he hasn’t played well and they are in competition for a WC spot. That fifth year option gamble doesn’t look like it is panning out, does it?
Wynn has been fine the last couple games, hasn't he? I don't really see the Pats deciding Wynn was worth the option earlier this year and then changing their minds based on a bad month to start the season.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,624
Dallas
Wynn has been fine the last couple games, hasn't he? I don't really see the Pats deciding Wynn was worth the option earlier this year and then changing their minds based on a bad month to start the season.
He has been ok - had a bad holding penalty against LAC. He was good against the Jets. If Brown comes back and they keep Onwenu at RT I could see them playing Brown at LT. Wynn has also come in and out of games - it is unclear if he got hurt mid-game vs the Chargers or they gave him a breather. I don’t think the option will impact who they start at LT the remainder of this year if Brown is actually healthy and ready to play. I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk but I also wouldn’t be surprised if Wynn continues to be up and down if Brown replaces him to finish the season. Just something to keep an eye on.