Pats Offense: Ongoing discussion

lexrageorge

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People need to slow the “we don’t have anybody to game plan for” roll a bit. No there isn’t a Gronk or Edelman in this group but there are plenty of guys who can make plays there.

Also, the OL still isn’t playing well and they absolutely need to get better. But they’ve played better since the second drive of the second half against the Saints. Some of that is that the Pats have spread it out which has given Mac more options. But they’ve also given him a bit more time. Mac was moving around a bunch last night and took a bunch of hits but he wasn’t running for his life the way we was a week ago even tho the Bucs were bringing pressure on most downs.
Agholor, Bourne, Myers, and Henry are dependable players, sure. And all of them are also coming off of career years last year, 3 of them in a contract year, so some regression is also to be expected. But none of them are at the level of the top 4 Bucs receivers, Deonte Harris, or DeVante Parker. Or even Corey Davis for that matter. And the Pats running game is nonexistent right now. It's a very easy offense to shut down, and the scoreboard shows it.
 
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What happened to the the 2 TE monster sets -- smash them in the mouth running game that can easily morph to an air attack. I understand the Bucs have a terrific run defense but have we seen that alignment all year?
Smashmouth doesn't work when you have turnstyles playing at several positions on the offensive line.
 

tims4wins

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Wondering if - when Brown (hopefully) gets healthy - they should try Brown-Wynn-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu. Or even (gasp) Brown-Karras-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu.

Given the struggles at RT, I don't understand why they haven't played Onwenu over there, especially since that is where he played so well as a rookie. They gave Karras decent money; they've started him plenty in the past; and now they won't play him when one of their starters is injured. It's kind of odd.

But yeah agreed with the sentiment that Wynn is a problem right now.
 

Harry Hooper

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I noticed Karras in at left guard late in the game last night, anyone know the story behind that?
From Pats Pulpit:

Mac Jones, David Andrews, Isaiah Wynn, and Shaq Mason played every offensive snap once again, extending their streak to four consecutive games. Michael Onwenu, who was once a part of that streak, was benched in favor of Ted Karras following a pair of holding penalties in the first half. The rotation at right tackle continued, as Justin Herron and Yasir Durant each played more than 20 snaps.
 

Eddie Jurak

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What happened to the the 2 TE monster sets -- smash them in the mouth running game that can easily morph to an air attack. I understand the Bucs have a terrific run defense but have we seen that alignment all year?
With the line beign bad, those set just give the defnse more ways to disguise their pass rush. Mac is better right now with the offense spread. And in terms of the running game, having extra TEs can only do so much if the line is blocking poorly.
 

rodderick

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Agholor, Bourne, Myers, and Henry are dependable players, sure. And all of them are also coming off of career years last year, 3 of them in a contract year, so some regression is also to be expected. But none of them are at the level of the top 4 Bucs receivers, Deonte Harris, or DeVante Parker. Or even Corey Davis for that matter. And the Pats running game is nonexistent right now. It's a very easy offense to shut down, and the scoreboard shows it.
Yes, and that's part of the reason why I'm not as high on what Mac has shown so far as a lot of other posters. He's been good for a rookie, but that's about it. The game they're playing on offense where a guy can complete 31 passes and not reach 300 yards is bonkers. I don't think you can consistently score points like that and the fact that they were held to 17 by a secondary in which Richard Sherman played every snap after a year plus out of football is very concerning to me. Maybe it's all play calling and the OL, but even the Falcons scored 25 on this team and they were much healthier on the backend. I think the Pats weapons were likely overrated in the preseason, but still, they're not 17 ppg bad.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Was Jakob Johnson on the field at all last night on offense?
About 16 plays, per Reiss on twitter.
Yes, and that's part of the reason why I'm not as high on what Mac has shown so far as a lot of other posters. He's been good for a rookie, but that's about it. The game they're playing on offense where a guy can complete 31 passes and not reach 300 yards is bonkers. I don't think you can consistently score points like that and the fact that they were held to 17 by a secondary in which Richard Sherman played every snap after a year plus out of football is very concerning to me. Maybe it's all play calling and the OL, but even the Falcons scored 25 on this team and they were much healthier on the backend. I think the Pats weapons were likely overrated in the preseason, but still, they're not 17 ppg bad.
Long term it isn't sustainable (the extent to which the Pats rely on short passes, I mean), but neither are the 17 picks Wilson, Fields, and Lawrence have combined for in their 10 starts.
 
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Captaincoop

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Yes, and that's part of the reason why I'm not as high on what Mac has shown so far as a lot of other posters. He's been good for a rookie, but that's about it. The game they're playing on offense where a guy can complete 31 passes and not reach 300 yards is bonkers. I don't think you can consistently score points like that and the fact that they were held to 17 by a secondary in which Richard Sherman played every snap after a year plus out of football is very concerning to me. Maybe it's all play calling and the OL, but even the Falcons scored 25 on this team and they were much healthier on the backend. I think the Pats weapons were likely overrated in the preseason, but still, they're not 17 ppg bad.
The Falcons scored 25...and gave up 48. They had 15 possessions in that game because they kept giving up 5ish play touchdown drives on defense.
 

rodderick

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ALong term it isn;t susrainable, but bout 16 plays, per Reiss on twitter.
Long term it isn't sustainable (the extent to which the Pats rely on short passes, I mean), but neither are the 17 picks Wilson, Fields, and Lawrence have combined for in their 10 starts.
Wilson, Fields and Lawrence play for much worse teams with much worse coaching, and Mac has been better than all of them so far. I just don't think you can take the good part of throwing the ball 5 yards down the field (high completion percentage and limited turnovers) without the bad. They struggle mightily to score right now. It can improve, it likely will improve, Mac will grow to be more confident and he's been fine at the very worst already. I just have no clue how so many people can be convinced he's the guy and that they have the QB position "solved", or anything of the sort, though. Not yet. They don't score.
 

Cellar-Door

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What happened to the the 2 TE monster sets -- smash them in the mouth running game that can easily morph to an air attack. I understand the Bucs have a terrific run defense but have we seen that alignment all year?
That requires 2 TEs who are good blockers. Jonnu is mediocre, Henry is worse than that. It also requires maulers on the O-Line, and our best one is hurt and other than maybe Onwenu the rest have been struggling. You might see it when we play a bad run D, when you play a team with 2 of the top 4 DT in football... yeah not so much.
 

BaseballJones

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The fact that Mac went 31-40 with the shit that is playing in front of him is impressive. They clearly have the most important position likely figured out. Now they just need to improve the line and skill players around him.
And no running game. It’s all him right now.
 

Garshaparra

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Was Jakob Johnson on the field at all last night on offense?
Barely noticeable. The one play I did notice him blocking on a run, JJ was up at the second level on a linebacker, while the RB was being dragged down at the line. Tampa's 3-man D-line was beating the Pats 5-man OL literally every run, blowing up every attempt at a hole or double team for their LBs to scoot in and clean up. It was beyond ugly. It really seems like we had two GOATs at once, with Brady and Scar being the difference-makers for the decades of dominance.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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You really got to question the OL coaching...who would have thought that losing Pop would have been a bigger blow than losing Scar? The line fell apart after losing Trent Brown and they have refused to make changes, despite the line struggling (big time) for four games. I can see trying to plug and play at RT for a game or so, but as I mentioned in another thread, Ownenu was nearly ROY at RT last year and would be a VAST improvement over what that has replaced Brown. They also may need to consider thinking outside the box on Wynn...maybe he's better suited for guard and maybe kick him inside when Brown returns. It just seems the definition of insanity to keep trying the same thing over and over that doesn't work.
 

bakahump

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What IS wrong with Wynn? He was functional at worse at LT in the past and at times quite good. Thats of course when he was able to play.

This year cold trash.
 

BigSoxFan

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What IS wrong with Wynn? He was functional at worse at LT in the past and at times quite good. Thats of course when he was able to play.

This year cold trash.
Have to wonder if the pressure of the contract year is getting to him. Or an injury. He’s been so bad that people like me who don’t know squat about OL play are picking up on how bad he’s been. Really needs to turn it around or Mac is going to get absolutely crunched at some point.
 
Feb 19, 2015
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Have to wonder if the pressure of the contract year is getting to him. Or an injury. He’s been so bad that people like me who don’t know squat about OL play are picking up on how bad he’s been. Really needs to turn it around or Mac is going to get absolutely crunched at some point.
I heard he wasn't on the field for pregame warm-ups and was wondering if he was getting extra medical treatments for an injury? I guess there could be some other reasons to miss the pregame warm-ups, but not really sure what.
 

jsinger121

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Have to wonder if the pressure of the contract year is getting to him. Or an injury. He’s been so bad that people like me who don’t know squat about OL play are picking up on how bad he’s been. Really needs to turn it around or Mac is going to get absolutely crunched at some point.
His 5th year option was already picked up. What pressure does he have? He just flat out sucks.
 

Big McCorkle

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What IS wrong with Wynn? He was functional at worse at LT in the past and at times quite good. Thats of course when he was able to play.

This year cold trash.
Clearly the departure of Cole Popovich is wreaking havoc across the offensive line. (This is only partly in jest... it might actually be part of the problem.)
 

bakahump

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@MuppetAsteriskTalk may be right. I am thinking an undisclosed injury he is trying to play through. We cant replace a RT. What makes us think a Non Isiah LT would be any better then he is? Maybe thats the Rational for an obviously ineffective Wynn still being out there (IF indeed hurt).

And WTF is up with that huge TB DT who basically shoved our entire Left side of the OL out of the way so his buddy could get the sack. That was butt fumble ridiculous.
 

BigSoxFan

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His 5th year option was already picked up. What pressure does he have? He just flat out sucks.
Ah, I missed that. Then, I have no idea. He even had that false start that was luckily not called for some reason and did that “ah…shit” reaction while staring down. He’s generally solid so it’s peculiar to me that he’s regressing like this when he should be entering his prime.
 

Captaincoop

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Have to wonder if the pressure of the contract year is getting to him. Or an injury. He’s been so bad that people like me who don’t know squat about OL play are picking up on how bad he’s been. Really needs to turn it around or Mac is going to get absolutely crunched at some point.
I am wondering if he's injured. I always thought he was overrated, but right now he's just plain bad.
 

SMU_Sox

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Damien Harris is averaging 0.3 yards before contact per PFF. League average is 1.4. He is third worst in the league. They can’t run block at all. Henry was never much of a blocker. Jonnu was supposed to be a good blocker but they keep using him and WRs against DLs. Like when they run toss they had Meyers against the Saints crack against an edge. Meyers put everything he had into it but the edge recovered and then helped blow up the play. They can’t even win 2:1s against DL. A lot of it is just poor technique. Guys don’t hit their landing spots and/or don’t even line up the block right. It’s a complete mess.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Damien Harris is averaging 0.3 yards before contact per PFF. League average is 1.4. He is third worst in the league. They can’t run block at all. Henry was never much of a blocker. Jonnu was supposed to be a good blocker but they keep using him and WRs against DLs. Like when they run toss they had Meyers against the Saints crack against an edge. Meyers put everything he had into it but the edge recovered and then helped blow up the play. They can’t even win 2:1s against DL. A lot of it is just poor technique. Guys don’t hit their landing spots and/or don’t even line up the block right. It’s a complete mess.
My biggest concern/question is: how can you salvage rampant technique issues like this in-season? And how was this shit not caught during camp? Did guys start lapsing when the real games started?

There are only so many practice hours during the week to work on technique, let alone the game plan installation, so I’m concerned there is just too much to fix without enough prolonged practice time to do it before they’ve dug the team too big of a hole.

I do think some of the issues can be fixed through better design, it’s pretty clear they’re too frequently asking the receivers and TE to make blocks they can’t make. Sure, you have to live with asking receivers to block corners, but they can’t ask Agholor or Meyers, or Henry for that matter to handle most DL 1:1. I’m actually not sure how that is happening, is it attributable to the defense forcing some favorable blocking assignments through gap responsibilities/alignment that the Pats are not responding to effectively? But hell if I can hear to see another play where Harris is hit behind or at the line with no chance to find daylight. And on that note, the Rhamondre faction’s push is laughable in that he’s not Barry Sanders yet there is some belief that things would be better if he got carries that would otherwise go to Harris (he and Bolden are not fungible, by contrast).
 

BigSoxFan

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Damien Harris is averaging 0.3 yards before contact per PFF. League average is 1.4. He is third worst in the league. They can’t run block at all. Henry was never much of a blocker. Jonnu was supposed to be a good blocker but they keep using him and WRs against DLs. Like when they run toss they had Meyers against the Saints crack against an edge. Meyers put everything he had into it but the edge recovered and then helped blow up the play. They can’t even win 2:1s against DL. A lot of it is just poor technique. Guys don’t hit their landing spots and/or don’t even line up the block right. It’s a complete mess.
Honest question:

How the hell do they even measure that in tenths of yards? Some kind of computer program?

But the conclusion makes sense. None of our RBs have any shot.
 

Saints Rest

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Wondering if - when Brown (hopefully) gets healthy - they should try Brown-Wynn-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu. Or even (gasp) Brown-Karras-Andrews-Mason-Onwenu.

Given the struggles at RT, I don't understand why they haven't played Onwenu over there, especially since that is where he played so well as a rookie. They gave Karras decent money; they've started him plenty in the past; and now they won't play him when one of their starters is injured. It's kind of odd.

But yeah agreed with the sentiment that Wynn is a problem right now.
I was thinking the same thing (your first suggestion). Moving three guys seems like a lot but it can’t be much worse than it has been, can it?

There were two plays that stood out to me last night for just being manhandled:
— the aforementioned one where TB DE basically cleared out Wynn and Onwenu (Karras?) like a bowler picking up a 7/10 split, allowing the OLB to crush Jones (and was that the play where it looked like Jones grabbed at his knee post-tackle?)
— the play where the other TB DE basically picked up our RT (I think at this point, it was Durant) and said “you are in my way so I’m just going to use you to sack your QB.”
 

Eddie Jurak

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Wilson, Fields and Lawrence play for much worse teams with much worse coaching, and Mac has been better than all of them so far. I just don't think you can take the good part of throwing the ball 5 yards down the field (high completion percentage and limited turnovers) without the bad. They struggle mightily to score right now. It can improve, it likely will improve, Mac will grow to be more confident and he's been fine at the very worst already. I just have no clue how so many people can be convinced he's the guy and that they have the QB position "solved", or anything of the sort, though. Not yet. They don't score.
Would you feel better about him if he was hitting more shots down the field but also had 8 picks? Just curious.

Anyway, I did say Mac's current pace wasn't sustainable. I just think he'll figure it out over time (as will the team).
Damien Harris is averaging 0.3 yards before contact per PFF. League average is 1.4. He is third worst in the league. They can’t run block at all. Henry was never much of a blocker. Jonnu was supposed to be a good blocker but they keep using him and WRs against DLs. Like when they run toss they had Meyers against the Saints crack against an edge. Meyers put everything he had into it but the edge recovered and then helped blow up the play. They can’t even win 2:1s against DL. A lot of it is just poor technique. Guys don’t hit their landing spots and/or don’t even line up the block right. It’s a complete mess.
Question: Asiasi?
 

DJnVa

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This was obviously an absurdly low rushing output last night. And yet...they were six inches from winning.

Looking at the rushing stats again...holy smokes:

Harris: 4 att, -4 yds
Bolden: 1 att, 0 yds
Taylor: 1 att, 0 yds
Agholor: 1 att, 4 yds
Jones: 1 att, -1 yds

8 rush attempts, -1 total rush yds

That has to be close to some sort of NFL record.
Not even close. -53.
 

DJnVa

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Are they going to keep Rhamondre inactive every week? They desperately need a spark in the running game.
I’m not sure that a guy that they don’t 100% trust to pick up the blitz was going to be a good choice against TB.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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I’m not sure that a guy that they don’t 100% trust to pick up the blitz was going to be a good choice against TB.
Have we heard any credible source say this? Or is it because it’s literally the only fathomable reason he’s been inactive. Because if that’s not the case and they feel ok with his pass protection the fact that he hasn’t played is just too asinine to comprehend?
 

Over Guapo Grande

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Have we heard any credible source say this? Or is it because it’s literally the only fathomable reason he’s been inactive. Because if that’s not the case and they feel ok with his pass protection the fact that he hasn’t played is just too asinine to comprehend?
Is it out of the realm of possibility that he has been putting the ball on the ground/missing assignments in practice? Or are we all just much smarter than the coaching staff?
 

Mystic Merlin

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Have we heard any credible source say this? Or is it because it’s literally the only fathomable reason he’s been inactive. Because if that’s not the case and they feel ok with his pass protection the fact that he hasn’t played is just too asinine to comprehend?
Because he fumbled and completely fucked pass protections in limited Week one snaps and basically hasn’t seen the field since? Not exactly a tough inference to draw.

He’s not going to get snaps if the staff doesn’t trust him. Who even knows what things look like at practice, to boot.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Is it out of the realm of possibility that he has been putting the ball on the ground/missing assignments in practice? Or are we all just much smarter than the coaching staff?
Have you read anything that says he’s been shite in practice?


Because he fumbled and completely fucked pass protections in limited Week one snaps and basically hasn’t seen the field since? Not exactly a tough inference to draw.

He’s not going to get snaps if the staff doesn’t trust him. Who even knows what things look like at practice, to boot.
He was down on the fumble and absolutely failed miserably at pass pro on one play. Fears said the kid looked good in practice, so is he lying?
 
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Is it out of the realm of possibility that he has been putting the ball on the ground/missing assignments in practice? Or are we all just much smarter than the coaching staff?
I remember when we were all calling for Harris in his rookie year after his awesome preseason, yet he was inactive week after week after week. Then he looked great right out of the gate in his sophomore year. So I'm going with we are smarter than the coaches! (Kidding but it does make me wonder why he was inactive all the time as a rookie.)
 

SMU_Sox

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Right now the offense is 27th in the league with 17.8 points per game. There’s good news and bad news with this game to me. The good news is I think they can use tempo and spread in a dink and dunk offense to have some success. The bad news is they invested heavily in two tight ends and an OL and have committed significant resources to run a different style of offense. They were supposed to be able to operate well in 12, run on nickel and dime looks and then pass against heavier looks or 2 high concepts. The investment with draft picks and FAs was to execute that strategy. It’s like buying a bulldozer and then finding out instead of competing to win at the demolition derby you have to race that bulldozer on a track. But even then that’s not fair because the bulldozer they thought they bought can’t even do that. They paid a ton of money for Jonnu who is averaging 22 yards per game and Hunter Henry who is averaging 35 yards a game. Both are not too far off their career averages but certainly below their past two season averages. That and for Jonnu he was expected to produce more than he did at TEN. The OL suddenly went from a top 5 run blocking unit to bottom 3 in the league overnight. The inefficiencies they were built to exploit are now just handing them loss after loss.

They found a new style of offense in 11 with Meyers, Agholor, and Bourne and operating in the spread from shotgun. But those 3 are not an all-star trio at WR. Those 3 are probably a bottom third of the NFL wide receiver trio. They can’t even run out of 11 when facing dime looks because 3 DLs routinely destroy their OL. They are one of three offenses that still hasn’t had a 40 yard play. It’s hard to score when you have to dink and dunk. It’s not like Meyers or Agholor are known for their prolific yards after catch ability. Bourne has some of that and so does Jonnu but Jonnu has yet to show it off. So to me the positives are actually somewhat damning given that they aren’t a great group. It’s possible they could be a middle of the road offense with that trio in 11 even with no running game but that remains to be seen.

Right now unless the OL rediscovers how to play football they will be a bottom third offense with no margin for error. If they can’t run 12 efficiently then they will have significantly overspent on two tight ends who don’t end up helping the team much at all.

Mac looks like he can be a Chad Pennington style pocket passer. You can win with that with a good defense, a solid OL, and weapons around him. Right now I’m skeptical of the OL and the weapons. They have so many needs this upcoming FA period and not a ton of cash. If their offensive adds in FA this last off-season don’t pan out they are more or less in a holding pattern until 2023.

It’s also quite possible that the OL regains their form and the WR trio gets them to around the middle of the pack on offense. With this defense that should be good enough to make the playoffs. But the ranges of outcomes is wild right now because so many players are underperforming on offense and schematically they are more or less playing with one hand behind their backs. It should get better but unless it does soon they could easily be staring 3-7 in the face.
 
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BaseballJones

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To me, the key question is this: Why has the OL stunk so badly? They can't move anyone off the ball, and they struggle in pass protection. (other than that they've been great.....)

They were supposed to be the best unit on the offense, an anchor that allowed them to run and give Mac Jones time to find targets.

So what happened such that this OL became an abject disaster? Losing Trent Brown alone can't explain it (or can it?). How have Onwenu and Wynn gotten so much worse? Was Thuney THAT important to their success?

What's going on there?
 

SMU_Sox

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@BaseballJones they don’t hit their landing spots when they run duo. They don’t line up the blocks right. I think for me I understand OL play and the running better than almost anything else conceptually as it is my passion. I’m seeing sloppy fundamental play and dreadful technique from guys I KNOW can play better. And then in pass pro they either miscommunicate or don’t pass off guys to handle twists and stunts or blitzes. It’s not just the OL but the TEs and RBs in pass pro too. Everyone is guilty. It’s coaching, I guess but it is also… hey it reminds me of Space Jam a bit when the NBA guys were afflicted and didn’t look like themselves. We need a Mufasa “Remember who you are” like intervention.
 

Cellar-Door

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To me, the key question is this: Why has the OL stunk so badly? They can't move anyone off the ball, and they struggle in pass protection. (other than that they've been great.....)

They were supposed to be the best unit on the offense, an anchor that allowed them to run and give Mac Jones time to find targets.

So what happened such that this OL became an abject disaster? Losing Trent Brown alone can't explain it (or can it?). How have Onwenu and Wynn gotten so much worse? Was Thuney THAT important to their success?

What's going on there?
I thought they were fine in the run game up until the NO and TB games (against an elite D-Line). I think they're probably fine in the run game, it's the pass game that is the real concern.
 

SMU_Sox

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I thought they were fine in the run game up until the NO and TB games (against an elite D-Line). I think they're probably fine in the run game, it's the pass game that is the real concern.
Minor quibble. They had issues all year but the run blocking was sub par vs the Jets.
 

Big McCorkle

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@BaseballJones they don’t hit their landing spots when they run duo. They don’t line up the blocks right. I think for me I understand OL play and the running better than almost anything else conceptually as it is my passion. I’m seeing sloppy fundamental play and dreadful technique from guys I KNOW can play better. And then in pass pro they either miscommunicate or don’t pass off guys to handle twists and stunts or blitzes. It’s not just the OL but the TEs and RBs in pass pro too. Everyone is guilty. It’s coaching, I guess but it is also… hey it reminds me of Space Jam a bit when the NBA guys were afflicted and didn’t look like themselves. We need a Mufasa “Remember who you are” like intervention.
Is Carmen Bricillo really that bad, and was Popovich really that good?
 

Jungleland

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They found a new style of offense in 11 with Meyers, Agholor, and Bourne and operating in the spread from shotgun. But those 3 are not an all-star trio at WR. Those 3 are probably a bottom third of the NFL wide receiver trio. They can’t even run out of 11 when facing dime looks because 3 DLs routinely destroy their OL. They are one of three offenses that still hasn’t had a 40 yard play. It’s hard to score when you have to dink and dunk. It’s not like Meyers or Agholor are known for their prolific yards after catch ability. Bourne has some of that and so does Jonnu but Jonnu has yet to show it off. So to me the positives are actually somewhat damning given that they aren’t a great group. It’s possible they could be a middle of the road offense with that trio in 11 even with no running game but that remains to be seen.
...
If their offensive adds in FA this last off-season don’t pan out they are more or less in a holding pattern until 2023.
This is the part where I'm slightly less pessimistic in the long run. After the first game or two, it seemed the receivers were letting Mac down and not getting open. Two games later, I'm much more hesitant to throw in the towel on the additions, as the pressure (and Mac's deep accuracy to a lesser but present extent) seem to have torpedoed the ability to get a good read on the receivers. Granted, Tampa's secondary is in shambles, but getting open wasn't the problem on Sunday night nor really against the Saints.

Jonnu singlehandedly lost a game, and Agholor always looked like a gamble to me. Otherwise (Jonnu in the other 3 weeks included), I don't think any of them have been wildly off the mark of what should have been expected for early season performance with a rookie QB. None of them are stars, and in general paying big bucks for non stars is bad practice, but in the event the team fields a credible offensive line sometime in the next 14 weeks I'm still high on the receiving corps being better than the sum of its parts as Mac learns the NFL game and they continue to get on the same page. Bourne and Henry look about as advertised to me and the style of play hasn't allowed for Agholor's skills to be utilized effectively at all. I'm willing to give it time (on quality, obviously the playoff outlook needs some near term success).
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
22,821
I think Agholor has been hurt a lot by Mac. He's the one guy I feel like would have been a lot better with Cam. For all his flaws Cam was pretty good at the deep ball on the rare occasions he threw it. Agholor has had a couple plays where he'd have had big gains (and probably TDs) if the QB puts it out where he can run onto it, and Mac for various reasons couldn't. Cam I think gives him a better chance, whether just from getting a better throw off, or by escaping the rush then making the throw.

Mac is definitely better for all our possession type WRs, like Jacoby, and the RBs but he's a bad fit to me with Agholor who wants to get 3-4 targets a week that are 20+ down the field to be effective. He needs a QB who is gonna get the ball out deep and let him run to it.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,429
Dallas
Is Carmen Bricillo really that bad, and was Popovich really that good?
Absolutely no idea. Look to be honest this has baffled me. Typically with most double team blocks one OL goes high and the other drives the guy directionally by hitting at the hip. This year I keep seeing both guys go high at different angles. Like on that Bolden series against the Saints when they ran twice in the red zone before 3rd and 12 and the checkdown to Jonnu. Neither side on that duo play worked. If anything because both guys were trying to move the DL in the opposite direction of the other it… actually helped the DL stay put and prevented any sort of climb to the 2nd level.

Edit: obviously for outside zone the landing spots are different for some combo blocks but we’re not talking about outside zone here. Apologies.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
45,573
Have we heard any credible source say this? Or is it because it’s literally the only fathomable reason he’s been inactive. Because if that’s not the case and they feel ok with his pass protection the fact that he hasn’t played is just too asinine to comprehend?
I mean, there's some reason he hasn't been active isn't there? Based on him fucking up those 2 plays, getting benched, then not dressing, that seems to be credible af.

It is good that we've heard Fears say some positive things lately though.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,429
Dallas
I mean, there's some reason he hasn't been active isn't there? Based on him fucking up those 2 plays, getting benched, then not dressing, that seems to be credible af.

It is good that we've heard Fears say some positive things lately though.
I think you have it right. Simplest explanation and what not.
 

Big McCorkle

Member
SoSH Member
May 9, 2021
208
I think Agholor has been hurt a lot by Mac. He's the one guy I feel like would have been a lot better with Cam. For all his flaws Cam was pretty good at the deep ball on the rare occasions he threw it. Agholor has had a couple plays where he'd have had big gains (and probably TDs) if the QB puts it out where he can run onto it, and Mac for various reasons couldn't. Cam I think gives him a better chance, whether just from getting a better throw off, or by escaping the rush then making the throw.

Mac is definitely better for all our possession type WRs, like Jacoby, and the RBs but he's a bad fit to me with Agholor who wants to get 3-4 targets a week that are 20+ down the field to be effective. He needs a QB who is gonna get the ball out deep and let him run to it.
Honestly I agree that Cam might be better in being able to survive longer on some of those place, although I would note that there were multiple plays in this week's game where Mac casually sidestepped an unblocked rusher and was then able to uncork it down the field, so he's really not terrible at managing to stay alive.

I'm really not as down on Mac's ability to throw the ball deep, even though he has had almost zero success doing it so far in the regular season. I mean, I can pull up video of him in a Patriots uniform, nevermind at Alabama, dropping three beautiful deep balls down the field. They were all in the preseason, which, yeah, preseason, but the big difference between preseason and regular season in this case was that on two of those throws Mac had a clean pocket to work from. He's physically capable of doing it.

I did a bit of a quick comparison of QBs in terms of average time to throw and the rate at which they're pressured, and Jones is right there in the area with Tannehill and Cousins, i.e. the quintessential "QBs with high pressure rates and low times to throw." That's a really tough place for a rookie to be forced to be. (It's worth qualifying this with the fact that Cousins has had much better results on deep throws, and Tannehill only somewhat better results (in no small part because because of drops), and both have obviously been overall better than Jones when throwing 20+ yards downfield and in general, duh. Jones is not presently on their level.)