Pats Draft Rd.1/15: QB Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones

pedroia'sboys

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I remember in the Saban/BB doc they talked extensively of how BB went to Saban about how his players would translate in the NFL

At this point let people and the pundits bitch
Clearly the best 2 couches in football signed off on this. Will see.

Don't quote me on this but I think Saban said BB was the only coach to ever have extensive pre draft discussions about his players.
 

Bongorific

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Going to riff a little on Mac Jones.

The thing with any fairly-immobile pocket-passer is you have limitations. Mac can work around them with his pocket-presence and he has better escape moves than Trask but there will always be limitations to his game. You can scheme around them. You can have success with a pocket passer. The issue with Mac to me is his arm is fringy and I am not sold that he is an elite processor. If you have his skill-set you need to have a perfect surrounding, a great OL, good skill players, etc. But if Mac Jones can develop there is a case for him having more ceiling than at first blush.

You can fix some of Mac's issues mechanically which should stop balls from dying on him but he isn't going to be a guy who ever operates a vertical passing offense. In a lot of ways Mac Jones and Lamar Jackson have similar arms. They can attack the middle of the field and the short to intermediate areas but are going to struggle outside the numbers. If you can get his delivery more compact and less fading off his back leg he should gain both velocity and ball placement with the latter concerning me more with his next step the pro game.

Intangibles are important and I can tell you why I liked Mac Jones much more as I got into his 2020 tape. At the start of the process I only had Mac's 2019 tape and I had a 6.49 on him, a backup grade. One of his worst games was vs Auburn in 2019. One of Mac's biggest issues was adjusting to a post snap coverage that was different from pre-snap coverage. He couldn't see it. You know what happened this year when teams tried to pull the same shit on him? He saw through it. He actually improved and you could see defenses not fooling him. That is significant.

It was hard to get a read on him. Mac Jones was one of the most challenging evals and not just for me but for most NFL forecasters and evaluators... It's hard to evaluate a guy with a fringy arm, with inconsistent ball placement, with shitty mobility who plays on an absolutely loaded team for a phenomenal coordinator who has an offense that doesn't actually ask Mac to process a ton on most plays. Jones had around 58% of plays via screen, RPO, or play-action. Good thing for him the Patriots like play-action and screens too.

Let's look at his strengths and weaknesses:

Strengths: pocket presence, can get the ball out quickly, is one of the better field readers, has good general accuracy, hard worker, a locker-room leader. Works the short and intermediate areas of the field well and can have success downfield with timing and anticipation and will be aided through play-actions. Some of the best short and intermediate touch and anticipation.

Weaknesses: fringe to average arm strength, inconsistent to poor ball placement, lack of mobility, can be too quick to get the ball out and leave plays on the field, needs to learn when to throw it away because he doesn't have the arm or athleticism to play back-yard ball.

I like dual-threats. I like mobile guys. I like the Lamar Jacksons, Justin Fields, Trey Lance's of the world. I don't like guys who have narrower paths to success and have, and this is true whether you love Mac or not, fewer tools in the tool belt. But as long as Mac Jones can win as a pocket passer he can be a quality starter. If Jones can add arm strength, become more of an athlete which would lead to better mobility in the pocket as well as another way to increase his arm strength, fix his mechanics which would then lead to ball placement improvement and velocity increases he has the makings of a Matt Ryan kind of a QB prospect on the high end and a Marc Bulger on the low end. Guys who have elite mental traits like Brady, Ryan, Manning, Brees are rare but there is a path to a higher ceiling QB based on RARE elite traits. Does he have them? Will he have the chance to develop them? Remains to be seen. His mental progression from 2019 is a cause for optimism though.

I guess another reason I was a little lower on him is I am a human being, he isn't my type, and I wish I was going to watch a flashier, sexier, toolsier prospect for my favorite team. But if I can talk myself into liking Mac Jones and being rational and not petty about it after an entire off-season of dreading him... well, and I don't know who else needs to hear this, maybe you can too :)

Now let's get some DBs, RBs, and OTs. And a WR would be nice too. Got to keep the weaponz fresh for Mac Daddy. Only the best for our country-club QB. Hey. I had to get one dig in, right?


The thing I like the most about Mac is his cost. They have a 2-4 year window with last years draft, the rest of this years draft, and the free-agents they got this year. The only realistic way imo they were doing that is by having a rookie QB on that sweet sweet rookie deal. With the way Mac improved from 2019-2020 if he can starter by the end of this year they could be in contention for the division next year.

There is a negative side too. If Mac Jones was more a product of a loaded team and a great scheme and who is more immobile and doesn't continue to develop as a pocket passer he could absolutely be a bust but then again that is true of any QB.
I was also hoping and thinking they would transition to a more modern QB. But I’m not sure I think “dual threat” when I look at Lamar Jackson. I see single threat. Yeah, it would be fun to watch Lance or Fields if they turn out to be similar style to Mahomes, Allen, or Rodgers; guys that think pass first, improvise, and can tuck and run if needed. I don’t have a ton of interest watching a guy run around all day holding my breath he doesn’t get hurt and throw 18 times.
 

Average Reds

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Whenever I see those types of questions, whether one is being drafted or not, almost invariably players give some generic canned answer that they're both great players, any team is lucky to have them, yada yada.

Didn't strike me as an attempt to pump up Mac's draft status, seemed genuine to me. I guess who knows.

Maybe someone can ask them now that Mac has been drafted and see if they were lying.
If they give anything other than effusive praise to Jones, they are seen as undermining him. (Which damages them, in addition to Jones.) They gave the only reasonable answer possible, and if they seemed genuine, kudos to whoever prepared them.

That doesn't prove the converse, but I'm with Coop on this.

Edit: I should add that I like the pick for NE. I just don't buy that the value in comparative endorsement from his teammates.
 
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Kenny F'ing Powers

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I'm taking time today to break down these Jones highlights in the championship game against Ohio State, another team loaded with NFL talent.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzfWp-5WxXE


1. RPO into a screen to the left. Mac with the fake, gets the throw out in rhythm, thrown right where Smith can get it and accelerate.

2. Another play-action fake to Harris, who slides to the left flat. Jones looks off his first read, then throws a beautiful ball to Harris in the flat, in rhythm, so Harris can get yards after the catch easily.

3. Play-action, easy pitch-and catch to Smith to the left. Not a difficult throw at all, but of course Jones makes it look super easy.

4. Jones avoids the rush and scampers up in the pocket away from pressure and makes a nice creative little flip pass to Waddle. Good vision to see that play.

5. Jones looks right and middle, can't find open guys, then throws a dart to the pylon to a fairly well-covered Bolden. Just short of a TD.

6. Play-action, roll to the right, then a nice throw to a wide open Smith. Not a difficult throw due to Smith being so wide open. But of course, he makes it.

7. Straight shotgun snap, throws a beautiful ball deep and right outside the numbers for a good gain to Smith.

8. Little quick out to Metchie for a modest gain to the right. I see that Mac has thrown balls to all levels now, and to the left, right, and middle.

9. Play action, little soft touch pass in the flat to Smith for a touchdown. Gorgeous touch on the ball, something Cam has never shown.

10. Jones steps up to avoid pressure and runs for 8 yards. He's not Kyler Murray obviously, but he's not afraid to take the yards on the ground when they're there for him. Smart play.

11. Big pressure and Jones manages to avoid it and loft a really nice ball down the left for Harris for a touchdown. Guy bearing down on him and he gets it away beautifully. He recognized that the guy doing the blitzing would have been the guy covering Harris, so it's a really good read.

12. Laser down the middle through heavy traffic to Metchie for a good gain. I don't see any arm strength concerns on a throw like that. Just ripped it with pace.

13. Play-action, hits Smith down the right sideline. Smith had 3 yards on his defender at the catch, but if you pause it, here's what it looks like when he's about to throw the ball.

View attachment 40711

Smith is even with the corner. Now Jones knows that Smith will - or should anyway - get by him (and the CB, Wade, is considered a 2nd or 3rd round NFL pick, so he's a legit NFL talent). But at release, Smith is even and Jones is throwing to a spot where he anticipates Smith will be. And when you see the result, the throw is right on the money.

14. Rollout to the right, hitting Smith short right for the touchdown. I like this throw because (1) Jones is rolling out and throwing on the move, and (2) he hits Smith perfectly in stride. Yes, Smith is open, but throwing on the run like that can often result in the pass being a little ahead or behind the receiver, so he has to adjust to catching it, which limits opportunity for YAC. He hit Smith perfectly for an easy score.

15. Deep ball to the center-right portion of the field, easy throw (well, at least he made it look easy) to a wide-open Smith for the long TD. Not a high degree of difficulty, but of course Jones hits him right in stride, 40 yards downfield. Effortless.

16. Escapes a heavy rush, and runs for 10 yards. Chris Fowler gushes about Jones' pocket awareness and escapability, and we again see his willingness and ability to run when necessary. You're never going to run designed QB runs for him, but he can get yards when needed. I like his toughness, diving into traffic for the first down.

17. Flip into the left flat for Bolden for the touchdown. Another nice touch pass, in rhythm, in stride for the easy score. Wide open, but again, the throw made it super easy for the receiver to catch and run.

18. Fakes a screen left, and while on the move to his left, zips a dart to Metchie 24 yards downfield in stride.

Obviously these are highlights and not lowlights. But...well...he didn't have many lowlights against an elite team in the biggest stage in college football. Which is part of the point. The guy faced a bunch of elite teams and shredded all of them. In this little 6 minute reel, we see Jones' ability to:

- Throw to his left, right, and middle
- Throw short, medium, and deep
- Throw on the run
- Throw to receivers in stride so they get max YAC
- Throw with zip (showing plenty of arm strength), and throw with touch
- Make quality reads, either seeing the blitz or working quickly through his progressions
- Evade pressure in the pocket
- Show a willingness and an ability to scramble for positive yards; nobody will mistake him for Lamar Jackson but he got the job done
- Showed toughness; at points he was limping and still hung in there and showed grit and competitiveness

So I don't know folks...again, this is a highlight reel so of course he's going to look good. But when I see stuff like this, I can't see why people are down on him. Seems like a really good quarterback at the highest level in college.
Sheesh. As you said, I know it's a highlight video...but that's a lot of highlights in one game.

Did he get YAC that he shouldnt expect at the NFL level? Yes, some. But he looked great in that title game. Great reads, quick reactions, and - relative to the current topic - his ball placement was impeccable. And that goes a long way to adding that extra YAC. The deep centerfield ball over the MLB to Smith, the sideline throw to Najee where he felt the blitz from his blindside, the deep sideline throw to Smith that hits him perfectly in stride...I mean, I cant recall Cam making more than a handful of throws like that all season. And he fucking nails it consistently.

Gimme some more juice like this and I'm backing away from the ledge.
 

Joe D Reid

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I defer to the many here with more knowledge of the game than I have. But I'll go on record as being concerned because Jones has a similar profile--endorsed by coaches and teammates, but underpowered athletically--as several of the Pats recent misses in the first two rounds. In other words, this pick matches BB's most demonstrated drafting blind spot. The asset class bothers me. But here's hoping the particular stock outperforms.
 

loshjott

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Here is an example: On a slant if you hit me slightly behind and it is catchable it is accurate but your ball placement is off because you want to throw it a little ahead of me so I don't have to adjust to it.
So it sounds like ball placement is just more accurate accuracy and they aren't really separate things.
 

BaseballJones

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Sheesh. As you said, I know it's a highlight video...but that's a lot of highlights in one game.

Did he get YAC that he shouldnt expect at the NFL level? Yes, some. But he looked great in that title game. Great reads, quick reactions, and - relative to the current topic - his ball placement was impeccable. And that goes a long way to adding that extra YAC. The deep centerfield ball over the MLB to Smith, the sideline throw to Najee where he felt the blitz from his blindside, the deep sideline throw to Smith that hits him perfectly in stride...I mean, I cant recall Cam making more than a handful of throws like that all season. And he fucking nails it consistently.

Gimme some more juice like this and I'm backing away from the ledge.
I love Donovan McNabb, but one thing he struggled with was ball placement. Yes, he'd hit a receiver for a reception, but often it was behind him, or low, or out in front so the receiver had to lunge. Yes in the stats it counts as a completion, so his completion percentage was the same as if he'd hit a guy in stride, but he cost himself tons of yards with suboptimal placement.

Jones seems to hit guys beautifully so they can maximize YAC. Whether it's on screens or swing passes or crossing routes or deep balls to the middle or sidelines, he hits guys and puts them in really great position to take it from there. The phrase "throwing guys open" is something that has been applied to Jones, and while I don't know that I see that in this short highlight clip (the one to Smith down the right sideline that I captured in a still photo) might be one, because when Jones releases it, Smith is blanketed, but Jones knows Smith will get to a spot, and when Jones puts it there perfectly, yes, by then, Smith has accelerated past his guy and has been "thrown open" so to speak.

The thing is...watch his tape from any of the games against big-time opponents. He shreds them ALL.
 

Jinhocho

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I defer to the many here with more knowledge of the game than I have. But I'll go on record as being concerned because Jones has a similar profile--endorsed by coaches and teammates, but underpowered athletically--as several of the Pats recent misses in the first two rounds. In other words, this pick matches BB's most demonstrated drafting blind spot. The asset class bothers me. But here's hoping the particular stock outperforms.
I can see this, but how can you pass him at 15? I think you have to make this pick at this point in the draft given the needs. I would prefer Fields I think, but what do I know in the grand scheme of things. That being said, to have Jones end up at 15 makes this a no-brainer for all but BB. I was waiting for a trade down right up until they picked him.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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So it sounds like ball placement is just more accurate accuracy and they aren't really separate things.
Sort of, yeah.

Cam? Horrific ball placement. It's why his most succesful seasons in Carolina was when he had big targets he could throw in the vicinity of.

Watch the Championship highlight video above. Mac hits almost all of his guys in stride. Even more so as the game progresses and he gets a feel for the defense. It's actually pretty impressive.
 

Phil Plantier

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We can all recite BBs draft "failures" from memory. I don't want to derail this thread, but is there a place where I can find how it compares to other franchises (since that is almost literally the only thing that matters)? Or how the comparison is done? (Guys still on team? Guys in NFL? All pros?)
Your latter questions get to the problem: it's surprisingly difficult to rate drafts in the NFL. Some problems:

  • If your previously injury-free pick picks up one or more serious injuries (Isaiah Wynn), does that reflect badly on the GM?
  • If a player fails with the original team but has success on a subsequent team, is that a plus or minus for the GM who drafted him?
  • If a player gets a market-rate second contract, should that factor into the plus of drafting him, when the GM could conceivably just sign him in free agency?
  • Should the pick be compared with the average value or median value of the pick?
  • Or a weighted average of the picks around that pick number?
  • How far back should we go/how recently should we stop? Someone mentioned that re-drafting the QBs in the 2018 draft would look very different after each of the last 3 seasons
That's off the top of my head, I'm sure I missed some.

All those caveats aside, I like Doug Kyed's attempt: https://nesn.com/2021/01/tom-brady-is-not-only-nfls-greatest-qb-but-also-goat-draft-pick/

Depending on who you include/exclude, Belichick is in the top quartile of GMs, which sounds about right
 

8slim

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Here is an example: On a slant if you hit me slightly behind and it is catchable it is accurate but your ball placement is off because you want to throw it a little ahead of me so I don't have to adjust to it.
Do you throw the slant low to the inside to keep it away from defenders? If a defender is outside shoulder on a seam route, so you drop the ball inside shoulder? Not just hitting numbers, but hitting the right body part for the throw.
Got it, thanks. I guess I always equated "accuracy" with having the ball in the right spot, so figured it covered placement as well.
 

EL Jeffe

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Ball placement vs accuracy is essentially co.mand vs control for pitching. Control: can you throw strikes? Comand: can you target specific locations within the strike zone. Accuracy: do you hit your target? Ball placement: does it go to the specific area of your target you want it to go.

I think Mac has both, his ball placement was generally on point. There's always going to be examples of some that weren't, but that's every QB. The RAC numbers sort of back that up. He's quite good at anticipating windows and leading receivers.
 

Cellar-Door

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Brees is not a "mobile" QB. Brady obviously isn't a "mobile" QB. You don't need to be a Lamar Jackson to be wildly successful in the NFL. Even Mahomes only runs a 4.80 40, and Mac was timed at 4.79 at his Alabama pro day. I don't get the sense that he's as good an athlete as Mahomes, who seems to play faster than his 40 time, but still. Jones' athleticism and pocket presence might just be good enough for him to evade the rush and gain positive yards when needed. Again, we're not going to see too many designed runs for Jones (like they have in Baltimore or Arizona or Buffalo), but clearly you don't need that to be successful in the NFL. Leadership, intelligence, accuracy, toughness...those are the traits BB seems to like the most in a QB, and to me, Jones has all those. It's not surprising in the least that BB picked him so quickly when he was available at 15.
Mobile and fast aren't the same thing. Mahomes is very mobile and was in college.

Brady (to a lesser extent Brees but he started off pretty mobile) aren't mobile. However, as a number of analysts have pointed out, since the new 2011 CBA (which changed the amount of practice and film time) there really hasn't been many non-mobile QBs who came into the league and had success, almost all the non-mobile QBs are legacy guys well into their 30s.

The list is basically.... Carr and Cousins. If you want to stretch it maybe you include Jimmy G and Goff.

Jones could definitely be a Carr or Cousins, but it is worth noting that generally guys who weren't mobile in college have struggled breaking into the NFL in the last decade. It limits you, you have to be a lot better at most things to be successful while not mobile, and for someone like Jones the second concern is.. he doesn't have a Carr or Goff type arm, not even a Jimmy G arm. So that limits him some more. Basically he'll have to be excellent at reading, decision making and placement to even be a league average QB. He'll have to be elite at all of them to be a top 3rd QB.
 

NickEsasky

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Ball placement vs accuracy is essentially co.mand vs control for pitching. Control: can you throw strikes? Comand: can you target specific locations within the strike zone. Accuracy: do you hit your target? Ball placement: does it go to the specific area of your target you want it to go.
Just so SoSH doesn't lose it's baseball cred I have to pick this nit. This is backward. Control is the ability to throw strikes, command is the ability to put the ball exactly where you want it.
 

EL Jeffe

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Just so SoSH doesn't lose it's baseball cred I have to pick this nit. This is backward. Control is the ability to throw strikes, command is the ability to put the ball exactly where you want it.
God bless it. I had it right the first time and edited it to the inverse.
 

BaseballJones

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You've mentioned it in some other posts and it's almost seen as a knock on Jones but his ability to execute short throws and screens is huge. It's a huge part of the Pats offense.
Just go back a few months and try to recall watching Cam throw screen passes. Air mailing them, throwing them at the runners' feet, throwing picks, whipping it so hard the RB hasn't even got time to get his hand up.

People ridicule the screen pass as if it's an easy throw to make, but obviously lots of QBs over the years have struggled with it. Jones throws a really beautiful screen that maximizes YAC. And you're right - these are staples of the Pats' offense.
 

cshea

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So is his conversation with Bill more forthcoming than his conversation with say, the Bears?
Possibly, who knows? Bill and Saban are long time friends with a mutual respect. I don't think Saban would bullshit Bill. It's not like there's some secret Alabama to Foxboro pipeline here, so it's not like he's selling state secrets to Bill and only Bill, but I think he'd give Bill an honest assessment of a player. Hightower has been a home run. Damien Harris looks really good. Cyrus Jones was a bust. Jury's out on Anfernee Jennings.
 

Eddie Jurak

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A few thoughts:

1. Bedard, who loves the pick, breaks down a video of one play in which he highlights a bunch of good things about Jones:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/30/bedard-year-purgatory-film-shows-mac-jones-can-restore-patriots-passing-offense-quickly/

On the play, Jones has 3 receivers to his left and he ends up hitting the innermost one (Smith) deep to the right . There's a LB on Smith (obvious mismatch), but Bedard points out that it is really the single deep safety who will be responsible for Smith on the route Smith runs. Jones drops onto the pocket looking left (where the other 2 receivers on the left are running routes). Both outside pass rushers are getting downfield and either may turn the corner and get to Jones. The deep safety commits left, Jones steps up in the pocket, maybe avoiding a sack, and hits the wide open Smith for the TD. Smith is wide open but the ball is dropped right in there.

Bedard's point: this was more than just hitting a top-10-drafted WR who was covered by a LB. To make this play, Jones had to understand what the coverage was, look off the deep safety, step up in the pocket, and deliver the pass, all of which he did, making it look easy. And even as a 10-year vet, Cam Newton really does none of that.

2. People knock the arm, but, just for comparison's sake, how great was Tom Brady's arm in his rookie year, anyway? I remember he got into one agme as a rookie, threw a couple of passes. Not much of a sample, but I don't remember being wowed by the arm. During his full career, though, Brady obviously had an unparalleled combination of strength and accuracy. I don't make this comparison to suggest we have another Brady, but, to ask those of us who understand this stuff better, is there some room for improvement here?

3. I think mobility, as far as running and gaining yards, is overrated, while mobility, as in moving in the pocket, is underrated. Tom Brady is obviously a guy who excelled at the latter. Dan Marino has to be one of the least mobile QBs ever, but at his peak he was nearly impossible to sack because of his pocket presence and quick release. If Jones can move in the pocket but isn't going to gain hunderds of rushing yards in a season, I'll take it.

4. The combination of Pats taking Jones and Niners taking Lance suggests that Jimmy Garoppolo won't be coming back. I think they go into the season with Newton starting and the door wide open for Jones to step up and take the job, unless Jones has a disappointing offseason/camp.
 

SMU_Sox

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I wouldn’t read much into his RAC numbers. Way too much noise with the scheme and the receivers he had.
I have been through 6 games with him. 2 from 2019 and 4 from 2020. He doesn’t have Burrow’s kind of elite placement and accuracy: 44 tight window throws vs 120+ for Joe via PFF. You’re going to see a lot of underthrows on deeper balls where his receivers rescued him. You will also see balls sails on him. He doesn’t have Burrow’s kind of pocket mobility too.

If anyone wants to go through Mac Jones at 6:00pm eastern I am game to zoom. I’ve come around on Jones even if I’m not at @EL Jeffe levels. I think our biggest disagreement is I am not going to budge much on my eval of his arm strength and ball placement right now. I absolutely believe he can improve there though.
 

Shelterdog

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Possibly, who knows? Bill and Saban are long time friends with a mutual respect. I don't think Saban would bullshit Bill. It's not like there's some secret Alabama to Foxboro pipeline here, so it's not like he's selling state secrets to Bill and only Bill, but I think he'd give Bill an honest assessment of a player. Hightower has been a home run. Damien Harris looks really good. Cyrus Jones was a bust. Jury's out on Anfernee Jennings.
There's also the story that urban meyers tells, essentially saying I was honest with BB, I said Carlos Dunlap is pretty good, Harvey and Moss are interesting, and BB just kind of ignored him because he loved jermaine cunningham.

I think BB has pretty good relationships with a lot of the college head coaches but at the end of the day that's of marginal help. You still have to project guys to the NFL and that's just hard.

https://www.patspropaganda.com/priceweei-urban-meyer-on-cunninghambelichick/
 

Captaincoop

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I'm reasonably optimistic about how this turns out. I don't buy the arm strength stuff as a major problem, as EJ points out above, that can certainly evolve as guys gain strength and work with different trainers (paging Tom House). Not to mention, what the Pats really need is someone who can execute screens and short passes most of the time.

The only downside is that this gives Bill little more time to indulge his soft spot for Newton, when I was hoping we'd never see him start again. Unless he makes a major jump from last year, I can't see Newton winning a fair competition with just about any NFL level QB in camp.
 

Deathofthebambino

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You've mentioned it in some other posts and it's almost seen as a knock on Jones but his ability to execute short throws and screens is huge. It's a huge part of the Pats offense.
It's not a huge part of the Pats offense. It's almost their entire offense for the most part. And, given they brought in Henry and Jonnu Smith, I suspect we'll see them unleash an offense that looks a lot like it did when Gronk and Hernandez were on the field together. Throw Bourne out there in the slot, Agholor on the outside to stretch things, and the running backs out of the backfield, and Mac Jones can have a field day over the middle of the field and on slants.

The thing I'm impressed by Jones the most is his ability to progress through his reads, and when he finds the read, he's dead accurate. Mobility matters if your offensive line sucks, and/or if your receives can't get open. We have receivers now, we have a good offensive line, so as long as he can move around in the pocket for 3 seconds, he'll find guys and hit them.

My only question about Mac Jones at this point is when he will become the starting QB. Will this put a chip on Cam's shoulder and will he play better? Is Cam even capable anymore? I envision a rough first four games (because that's what the Pats typically do), and then everyone starts clamoring for Jones, but I doubt BB listens to the masses and we have some frustration before the move is made.

I'm not saying Mac is going to be an all pro, or even a great QB, but I think he has the tools that are needed in the offense the Pats will be playing.
 

soxhop411

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View: https://twitter.com/_AndrewCallahan/status/1388117666662166529
Interesting. Moments before picking Mac Jones, Belichick asked his new inner personnel circle — including Dave Ziegler, Eliot Wolf and Matt Groh — “are we all good with this?”
https://twitter.com/ByChrisMason


Robert Kraft: "Everyone here who I've talked to about you, they tell me you're a phenomenal person. Great guy. And I like — the academics in my family will like that you have a 4.0 GPA."

Link
 

RedOctober3829

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So is his conversation with Bill more forthcoming than his conversation with say, the Bears?
I don't think he lies to other teams or anything, but I think he may tell Bill things that he may not tell other teams and it may not be all positive. He's going to pump tires of all his players to every team because he wants them to succeed, but Bill and Nick know each other so well that Bill would see through some of that and Nick will actually tell Bill that this player won't fit their system or will tell them about behind the scenes stuff that may not necessarily be out there.
 

RSN Diaspora

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Brees is not a "mobile" QB. Brady obviously isn't a "mobile" QB. You don't need to be a Lamar Jackson to be wildly successful in the NFL. Even Mahomes only runs a 4.80 40, and Mac was timed at 4.79 at his Alabama pro day. I don't get the sense that he's as good an athlete as Mahomes, who seems to play faster than his 40 time, but still.
What gave you that idea?

40717

In seriousness, given that QBs are such a crapshoot in the draft (other than Peyton Manning, I can't think of a marquee QB draftee who lived up to the hype), I don't have a lot of criticism for taking the best available QB in the middle of the first round when that's a huge area of need for the team. I'd imagine most of us accept that we're not going to catch the Brady 6th round lightning in the bottle again, so why not go for this kid?
 

BaseballJones

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Think about last season and how they're built right now. They have a dominant offensive line, a very good stable of running backs, outstanding tight ends, at least competent receivers (big upgrade from last year), what appears to be the makings of a good defense, and top-shelf special teams. The one huge area of weakness was a quality passer.

Cam gave the Pats a lot on the ground, something Jones won't do. But Jones doesn't have to be that good in order to be MUCH better than Cam at passing the ball. If Jones turns out to be pretty good (doesn't have to be elite), this team should be *fantastic*.
 

cshea

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Why is that interesting? I feel like that's always going to be the last question asked before any pick is sent to the league. We sure, guys?
 

radsoxfan

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If they give anything other than effusive praise to Jones, they are seen as undermining him. (Which damages them, in addition to Jones.) They gave the only reasonable answer possible, and if they seemed genuine, kudos to whoever prepared them.
I guess so, I just don't see players even pretend to be "honest" when these type of things are asked. They could have said it's a tie, loves em both, etc. That's still praising Mac given where Tua was taken and his rep.

Someone should ask Waddle his real feelings now that the Dolphins picked him. Though I guess he will have a different reason to bend the truth if he wants.
 

Deathofthebambino

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What gave you that idea?

View attachment 40717

In seriousness, given that QBs are such a crapshoot in the draft (other than Peyton Manning, I can't think of a marquee QB draftee who lived up to the hype), I don't have a lot of criticism for taking the best available QB in the middle of the first round when that's a huge area of need for the team. I'd imagine most of us accept that we're not going to catch the Brady 6th round lightning in the bottle again, so why not go for this kid?
 

Captaincoop

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Mac's 4.0 at Alabama calls to mind the John Cena SNL sketch. I'm sure academics for the starting QB at the University of Alabama is very rigorous in real life, though.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Mac's 4.0 at Alabama calls to mind the John Cena SNL sketch. I'm sure academics for the starting QB at the University of Alabama is very rigorous in real life, though.
Yeah, I would't be shocked if there is a clause in the tenure agreement that you can be fired for giving a bad grade to the starting QB at Alabama....
 

simplyeric

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Interesting. Moments before picking Mac Jones, Belichick asked his new inner personnel circle — including Dave Ziegler, Eliot Wolf and Matt Groh — “are we all good with this?”
It's interesting to me in that it looks like a scene out of The Godfather or something, like they're planning to murder someone.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how other draft rooms are. Like, if that was Pete Carroll would it be more "Aright guys we good with this?! We jacked and pumped? High fives!" Or Rex Ryan "ok we're good lets go get a fucking snack!" or something.

But yeah, in and of itself, it's a roomful of professionals making a serious and well-considered decision based on limited information.
 

Cellar-Door

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It's not a huge part of the Pats offense. It's almost their entire offense for the most part. And, given they brought in Henry and Jonnu Smith, I suspect we'll see them unleash an offense that looks a lot like it did when Gronk and Hernandez were on the field together. Throw Bourne out there in the slot, Agholor on the outside to stretch things, and the running backs out of the backfield, and Mac Jones can have a field day over the middle of the field and on slants.

I'm not saying Mac is going to be an all pro, or even a great QB, but I think he has the tools that are needed in the offense the Pats will be playing.
It also.... wasn't a very good offense though?

I'm cautiously optimistic that in a year or two of NFL level training Jones can get a little more on his throws and be a solid but unspectacular NFL starter, but if he can't throw deep and he can't throw to the sidelines the offense is going to get awful crowded. Agholor was grabbed specifically to open up the field, but if the QB can't make that throw he's useless. The two tight ends are a lot more dangerous if (like Gronk and Hernandez) one or both are being used on deep seam routes to cause mismatches over the top, you need a solid arm to hit that throw.

I guess the ideal thought process if his arm doesn't get a boost from NFL level training is you can try to be the Best Value version of last year's Saints once Brees' arm finally went, but to do that we're going to need to upgrade the skill positions, 2 yard slants to Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara are a lot different than to N'Keal Harry and James White.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It also.... wasn't a very good offense though?

I'm cautiously optimistic that in a year or two of NFL level training Jones can get a little more on his throws and be a solid but unspectacular NFL starter, but if he can't throw deep and he can't throw to the sidelines the offense is going to get awful crowded. Agholor was grabbed specifically to open up the field, but if the QB can't make that throw he's useless. The two tight ends are a lot more dangerous if (like Gronk and Hernandez) one or both are being used on deep seam routes to cause mismatches over the top, you need a solid arm to hit that throw.

I guess the ideal thought process if his arm doesn't get a boost from NFL level training is you can try to be the Best Value version of last year's Saints once Brees' arm finally went, but to do that we're going to need to upgrade the skill positions, 2 yard slants to Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara are a lot different than to N'Keal Harry and James White.
The thing is they know what his arm is and isn't don't they? So seems a lot more likely they believe he can get some balls outside or they have a belief they can run the offense effectively without that. I realize they could be wrong, but it's not like this is some surprising thing after an injury or anything.
 

tims4wins

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It also.... wasn't a very good offense though?

I'm cautiously optimistic that in a year or two of NFL level training Jones can get a little more on his throws and be a solid but unspectacular NFL starter, but if he can't throw deep and he can't throw to the sidelines the offense is going to get awful crowded. Agholor was grabbed specifically to open up the field, but if the QB can't make that throw he's useless. The two tight ends are a lot more dangerous if (like Gronk and Hernandez) one or both are being used on deep seam routes to cause mismatches over the top, you need a solid arm to hit that throw.

I guess the ideal thought process if his arm doesn't get a boost from NFL level training is you can try to be the Best Value version of last year's Saints once Brees' arm finally went, but to do that we're going to need to upgrade the skill positions, 2 yard slants to Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara are a lot different than to N'Keal Harry and James White.
It wasn't very good, but it's the same system. It wasn't very good because of the players, not the system.
 

Cellar-Door

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The thing is they know what his arm is and isn't don't they? So seems a lot more likely they believe he can get some balls outside or they have a belief they can run the offense effectively without that. I realize they could be wrong, but it's not like this is some surprising thing after an injury or anything.
They know to the extent you can know, but I think SMU has covered it a bunch... it's fringey. So you don't 100% know how it will play in-game. Also, my guess is they think they can get more juice out of it with strength training and mechanics tweaks.

The other concern of course is.... guys with fringey arms are in more trouble if they have an injury. Guys with cannons hurt their shoulder and it's nothing. Sam Bradford or Chad Pennington hurts his shoulder and they're on the exit lane of their career.
 

burstnbloom

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Mac's 4.0 at Alabama calls to mind the John Cena SNL sketch. I'm sure academics for the starting QB at the University of Alabama is very rigorous in real life, though.
I laugh about this as well. He did graduate in 2.5 years though and has a masters degree though, so there is SOME reason to believe he actually tried in school.
 

Traut

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Yeah, I would't be shocked if there is a clause in the tenure agreement that you can be fired for giving a bad grade to the starting QB at Alabama....
Jones did graduate in 3 years and then got his Master’s Degree. Sure the wind is at his back but this shows some initiative.
 

Cellar-Door

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What evidence is there that Jones can't throw deep?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kepnNobCOjI


Jones looks off a safety, hits his #3 receiver (so not Waddle or Smith) down the right sideline, a throw that travels 45 yards and hits him *perfectly* in stride right on the sideline (so no room for error due to the boundary).
That's a nice throw... it doesn't really show much as to what level of NFL arm strength he has though, that's a ball floated out there for Smith to run onto, if he couldn't throw the ball that far in the air he wouldn't get drafted at all. Real nice touch, which is 100% a thing that Jones has, one of his better qualities. He has good accuracy and pretty nice touch on the ball over the top. It's why even people down on him think he was at least a 2nd/3rd round grade, he has a lot of positives.

The throws people are more concerned about are the ones that need zip on them, whether that the 15 yard out, or the 35-40 yard ball down the field that needs to get in before the safety gets across, or the 25-30 yard ball high and outside on a flat tragectory that only the WR can get.

When analysts talk about him having a marginal arm, they mean by NFL QB standards, where it's not just "how far can you throw it" (which in the NFL... a bad arm can still throw it 45-50 yards and good ones throw it 70-80+), it's how fast can you get it there.

I think people are mistaking worries about how consistently he can throw NFL deep balls with physical incapability. I mean... I worry about Cam's ability to throw deep with his shoulder... he still showed last year that if a guy is open deep he can lay it out downfield for the guy to run onto, it's the zip (and control) he was missing.

Now maybe there are some people REALLY down on Jones, but I think I'm one of the less enthusiastic.. I still think his most likely outcome is marginal starter/good backup... it's just a question of whether he'll be able to make it to... "guy you want to give a 2nd contract at good money to be your starter" levels, which is what you're hoping for out of a 1st round pick if you want to be a consistent SB contender.
 

bsj

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I don’t expect this to be a regular part of the offense, but I wonder if, provided Jones develops as we hope, this may allow for some legit 2 QB on the field trick plays?