Pats Draft Rd.1/15: QB Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,503
Berkeley, CA
I couldn't be more excited for this season. It's just fun watching a promising rookie develop. The gulf that existed between my interest in watching the Pats with Cam and my interest in watching them with Mac dwarfed the Grand Canyon. Just watched the first Warner vid on Mac. It's a Zapruder film with clear evidence that Mac is killing it.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
13,261
New York City
I couldn't be more excited for this season. It's just fun watching a promising rookie develop. The gulf that existed between my interest in watching the Pats with Cam and my interest in watching them with Mac dwarfed the Grand Canyon. Just watched the first Warner vid on Mac. It's a Zapruder film with clear evidence that Mac is killing it.
It really is. It's like one hundred percent clear to me that for the people who can throw a football well enough to make an NFL training camp the most important factor in success is great (almost instantanous) decision making on where to go with the ball against a given defense-- and that's the hardest thing to evaluate. And Mac freaking Jones is showing signs that he's really really good at it.

EDIT: Also is it just me or is his arm way better than advertised? I know he's not Jeff George but it seems to me like it's a roughly average or slightly below average NFL arm. (Maybe if you add up all the guys with crazy arms it turns out that he's like 23 in the league but still, this is no Greg McElroy.
 
Last edited:

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,503
Berkeley, CA
It really is. It's like one hundred percent clear to me that for the people who can throw a football well enough to make an NFL training camp the most important factor in success is great (almost instantanous) decision making on where to go with the ball against a given defense-- and that's the hardest thing to evaluate. And Mac freaking Jones is showing signs that he's really really good at it.

EDIT: Also is it just me or is his arm way better than advertised? I know he's not Jeff George but it seems to me like it's a roughly average or slightly below average NFL arm. (Maybe if you add up all the guys with crazy arms it turns out that he's like 23 in the league but still, this is no Greg McElroy.
+1. It's somewhat of a relief to see him make some of these throws. The deep shot to Harry (where Harry damaged his shoulder) went 45 yards and exactly where it needed to go, so that ticks off a box. It wasn't a frozen rope, but the placement/angle improved the odds of a completion. The great unknown still is how well he'll fare when he's facing windy conditions - particularly some of the icy blasts in December. If he's relying on that amount of loft for distance, then his range will be diminished. Still, the right timing on shorter routes can literally go a long way.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
655
Brooklyn by way of Orono
We'll find out when the Pats roll out the first injury report.
Absolutely, they’ll be completely forthcoming :)

I’m excited by what this must mean for their confidence in both potential and health. Someone made the Cortes burning his ships analogy with cutting Cam, which I like: only way is forward.

Edit - @Shelterdog was Cortes reference
 
Last edited:

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
8,012
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
It really is. It's like one hundred percent clear to me that for the people who can throw a football well enough to make an NFL training camp the most important factor in success is great (almost instantanous) decision making on where to go with the ball against a given defense-- and that's the hardest thing to evaluate. And Mac freaking Jones is showing signs that he's really really good at it.

EDIT: Also is it just me or is his arm way better than advertised? I know he's not Jeff George but it seems to me like it's a roughly average or slightly below average NFL arm. (Maybe if you add up all the guys with crazy arms it turns out that he's like 23 in the league but still, this is no Greg McElroy.
I think it's an okay NFL arm in that Mac can make all the throws, but he has to be on time. Honestly, thinking about current NFL starters it kind of hit me that even the Ryan Tannehills of the world have strong arms, really can't think of many entrenched QBs that have noticeably weaker arms than Mac, maybe Jimmy, Dalton and Roethlisberger? Bridgewater? Still, it shouldn't be a detriment to the way he plays.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,246
Dallas
Mac probably has a bottom third bottom quarter or whatever arm. He can max effort a laser or rainbow a ball downfield but he’s going to have to rely on being on time to make it work. That’s fine. Burrow is largely the same way. Some QBs are more see-it throw-it types. You need a strong arm to be that style of QB. Other QBs rely on anticipation and timing to get the ball where it needs to be. I remember reading that for every 15 yards a ball thrown by Trey Lance travels through the air Mac’s only goes 13.5 yards. It just takes away from his margin of error. Bakers don’t need a howitzer but chefs benefit more from it.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
21,285
A Scud Away from Hell
So, is arm strength something that can be worked on with better mechanics/training but without sacrificing accuracy?

If so, are we talking improvements of 10%? 25%? Have there been successful QBs whose arm strength have gotten noticeably better under such coaching?
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,538
Worcester
So, is arm strength something that can be worked on with better mechanics/training but without sacrificing accuracy?

If so, are we talking improvements of 10%? 25%? Have there been successful QBs whose arm strength have gotten noticeably better under such coaching?
I was under the impression that 199th pick was able to improve arm strength enough to lead teams to one or two superbowls.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
29,526
So, is arm strength something that can be worked on with better mechanics/training but without sacrificing accuracy?

If so, are we talking improvements of 10%? 25%? Have there been successful QBs whose arm strength have gotten noticeably better under such coaching?
Tom House worked with Brees and Brady.

Story
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
I’m sorry. I hear about Mac’s mediocre arm all the time still. But I saw him throw a bunch of absolute ropes this preseason. Not just quality deep balls, but 20 yard lasers right on target. He has plenty of arm to succeed in the NFL.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
His arm seems at least as strong as Brady's. That's good enough for me. Anyone disagree?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXqHgyBDZ0

If that video isn't working, here's the link (just cut and paste and delete the space after the period and before the "com"):
https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=SaXqHgyBDZ0

First throw, thirty yards downfield on a line.
1:10 mark - incomplete pass to Gunner, but a 22-yard laser.
1:41 mark - another rope 23 yards from the spot of the throw.
2:23 mark - the seam pass for a TD - nothing wrong with that velocity at all.
2:45 mark - out pattern on a line. No float there at all. A dart.

So I dunno...I don't see any issues with his arm strength at all. Like...none.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
31,970
Melrose, MA
His arm seems at least as strong as Brady's. That's good enough for me. Anyone disagree?
I disagree, with one caveat. I think Brady, throughout most of his time here, had an absolute cannon. I think people judging Jones as comparable generally have forgotten how strong Brady's arm was during most of his time here.

However, during Brady's early time in NE, I don;t recall thinking that about him. My impression has always been that Brady's arm strength improved markedly from his early time in the NFL to his prime. I don't think the 2001 version of Brady had the cannon that prime Brady is known for. I'm not sure how rookie and second year Brady's arm compared with Jones.

But this is all just my own personal impressions and I am far from an exert. I would welcome commentary about this from people who know what theya re talking about.
 

5dice

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2001
633
Out of town
I feel like people were down on TB’s arm and ability to throw long, along with his subpar supporting cast his last couple years here. I guess having Evans, Godwin and AB to throw to made it look stronger again, even at 7.6 yds per attempt.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 2, 2006
19,517
Philadelphia
Brady had a weak arm coming into the league and was knocked for that in the draft. He clearly improved his arm strength in his first couple years in the league after going on an NFL strength and conditioning program and adding a good amount of bulk and tone in general. It is less clear to me whether there were changes to his arm after that. My general impression is that he got to the point where he had basically a league average starter's arm but not any kind of cannon. When the Pats were in the Super Bowl "drought" period commentators frequently asked whether Brady had become too easy to defend because he couldn't threaten defenses deep, especially in cold weather playoff games. Those questions were monumentally stupid, but I think not because Brady actually had a cannon arm but simply because a league average arm was plenty sufficient to provide enough threat providing you have other things you do very well in the passing game, which the Pats obviously did.

Brady is kind of a weird one in that he was also generally smart enough not to throw the ball in the kinds of situations that tend to really show off the difference in arm strength between average guys and guys with huge arms (off platform throws, throws on the run, ambitious throws with a lot of trash at your feet). He probably looked like he had a stronger arm than he did simply because he played the game so well that he was able to make so many of his throws off a good platform.

Just running with this thought, it does seem illustrative to me of one reason arm strength is somewhat overrated as a quality (as long as you clear a certain bar at least). Lots of throws that are only possible with really top level arm strength are also bad decisions under duress. Of course the best thing is to be the guy that can make those throws but also has good decision making in those spots like Aaron Rodgers but that is a really rare combo. And sometimes we see a guy make a few of those throws successfully but we tend to have selective memory and forget about all the bad decisions he made just because he had the big arm and thought he could do something. I still wonder whether Josh Allen is that guy.
 
Last edited:

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
21,239
Brady had a weak arm coming into the league and was knocked for that in the draft. He clearly improved his arm strength in his first couple years in the league after going on an NFL strength and conditioning program and adding a good amount of bulk and tone in general. It is less clear to me whether there were changes to his arm after that. My general impression is that he got to the point where he had basically a league average starter's arm but not any kind of cannon. When the Pats were in the Super Bowl "drought" period commentators frequently asked whether Brady had become too easy to defend because he couldn't threaten defenses deep, especially in cold weather playoff games. Those questions were monumentally stupid, but I think not because Brady actually had a cannon arm but simply because a league average arm was plenty sufficient to provide enough threat providing you have other things you do very well in the passing game, which the Pats obviously did.

Brady is kind of a weird one in that he was also generally smart enough not to throw the ball in the kinds of situations that tend to really show off the difference in arm strength between average guys and guys with huge arms (off platform throws, throws on the run, ambitious throws with a lot of trash at your feet). He probably looked like he had a stronger arm than he did simply because he played the game so well that he was able to make so many of his throws off a good platform.

Just running with this thought, it does seem illustrative to me of one reason arm strength is somewhat overrated as a quality (as long as you clear a certain bar at least). Lots of throws that are only possible with really top level arm strength are also bad decisions under duress. Of course the best thing is to be the guy that can make those throws but also has good decision making in those spots like Aaron Rodgers but that is a really rare combo. And sometimes we see a guy make a few of those throws successfully but we tend to have selective memory and forget about all the bad decisions he made just because he had the big arm and thought he could do something. I still wonder whether Josh Allen is that guy.
In addition to just plain getting bigger and stronger, Brady also kept trying to reach some sort of mechanical perfection to aid in keeping his velocity up. Rodgers is a freak who can throw hard and far and accurate even if his arm is over *here* and his feet are over *there*. While Jones, like anyone, will have to be able to throw at least somewhat on the move, I suspect that most of his throws will benefit from the same type of work on mechanics as an aid to "arm strength."
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
13,382
Mansfield MA
I thought in college Mac's deep sideline ball would fade a little short and a little away from the sideline. He hasn't thrown many of those this preseason, but the ones he's put out there have been on target, which is encouraging. His arm will be fine for most things, but it's certainly not a plus. We also haven't really seen him try to make throws from muddy pockets or whatever where it's all arm (which was never Brady's string suit either).

In addition to just plain getting bigger and stronger, Brady also kept trying to reach some sort of mechanical perfection to aid in keeping his velocity up. Rodgers is a freak who can throw hard and far and accurate even if his arm is over *here* and his feet are over *there*. While Jones, like anyone, will have to be able to throw at least somewhat on the move, I suspect that most of his throws will benefit from the same type of work on mechanics as an aid to "arm strength."
This is my read on Brady's arm strength. He probably had above-average (but not exceptional) velocity from clean pockets but below-average when he had to throw on the move or couldn't step up.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
49,783
deep inside Guido territory
I thought in college Mac's deep sideline ball would fade a little short and a little away from the sideline. He hasn't thrown many of those this preseason, but the ones he's put out there have been on target, which is encouraging. His arm will be fine for most things, but it's certainly not a plus. We also haven't really seen him try to make throws from muddy pockets or whatever where it's all arm (which was never Brady's string suit either).


This is my read on Brady's arm strength. He probably had above-average (but not exceptional) velocity from clean pockets but below-average when he had to throw on the move or couldn't step up.
This is where Mac is right now as well. His arm strength isn't a strength of his, but it's not exactly a weakness either. He can make most if not all the throws he needs to. With mechanical adjustments, he may be able to improve it some but it shouldn't hinder his performance.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,538
Worcester
We've seen Mac drop deep balls in the bucket this pre-season. 3 times off the top of my head, and they were all dropped. But 35-45 yds in the air, on a dime-- so arm strength and accuracy don't seem to be an issue. Velocity? I'll leave that to better eyes (or AWS) than me.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,246
Dallas
I’m in the same boat at @Super Nomario and @RedOctober3829 - if you look at the guys who are playing and starting Mac’s arm is in the bottom third or quarter of the NFL. You see a frozen rope I see a max effort rope. If he doesn’t have the ability to step up and put everything into it it won’t be there. It’s like a pitcher that has an 89-90-91 mph fastball but who relies on deception and location to win. It’s fine! It’s NFL viable but it’s not a strength. In college a lot of his outside the numbers throws would die. Some of that was from faulty mechanics but some of that was because he doesn’t have a cannon.
I saw similar throws from Trey Lance and Mac Jones this preseason. Lance can throw a 99 mph fastball at low effort and off balance. Mac can’t. Mac though doesn’t need to do that typically because he has the best anticipation of the rookies. The goal is to get the ball where it needs to be on time. If you have a howitzer you can wait a second longer.
Cam didn’t have a strong arm either. If you want to compare just look at the throws other QBs are making and compare to Mac. Again, his velocity is ok but he’s probably always going to be a back end of the NFL guy for that.
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
5,756
around the way
I’m in the same boat at @Super Nomario and @RedOctober3829 - if you look at the guys who are playing and starting Mac’s arm is in the bottom third or quarter of the NFL. You see a frozen rope I see a max effort rope. If he doesn’t have the ability to step up and put everything into it it won’t be there. It’s like a pitcher that has an 89-90-91 mph fastball but who relies on deception and location to win. It’s fine! It’s NFL viable but it’s not a strength. In college a lot of his outside the numbers throws would die. Some of that was from faulty mechanics but some of that was because he doesn’t have a cannon.
I saw similar throws from Trey Lance and Mac Jones this preseason. Lance can throw a 99 mph fastball at low effort and off balance. Mac can’t. Mac though doesn’t need to do that typically because he has the best anticipation of the rookies. The goal is to get the ball where it needs to be on time. If you have a howitzer you can wait a second longer.
Cam didn’t have a strong arm either. If you want to compare just look at the throws other QBs are making and compare to Mac. Again, his velocity is ok but he’s probably always going to be a back end of the NFL guy for that.
/\
This is perfectly stated.

And with Mac getting professional weight training and quarterback coaching, even small gains in mechanicals and pure strength will mitigate some of that velocity weakness. It's a weakness now, offset by his accuracy and anticipation strengths. Making it less of a weakness over time will also help.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,538
Worcester
/\
This is perfectly stated.

And with Mac getting professional weight training and quarterback coaching, even small gains in mechanicals and pure strength will mitigate some of that velocity weakness. It's a weakness now, offset by his accuracy and anticipation strengths. Making it less of a weakness over time will also help.
This is, the point, I thinl. I am sure there are great coaches at 'Bama, like there were great coaches at Michigan (we'll ignore the 20+ year gap). But with a year or 3 with pro level coaches- there is no reason to think that an average arm could turn into an above average arm
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
5,756
around the way
This is, the point, I thinl. I am sure there are great coaches at 'Bama, like there were great coaches at Michigan (we'll ignore the 20+ year gap). But with a year or 3 with pro level coaches- there is no reason to think that an average arm could turn into an above average arm
Yeah and everyone great works with a mechanics coach. Tiger Woods was the best player in the world for years and was maniacally working his swing. Best guy on earth, looking for an edge. If Mac approaches things properly, he can get to average for sure. And that adds to the rest of the package. He already seems to exceed minimum need, so we're really dwelling on nothing. He has enough to get by already.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
From the pics, seems like McCorkle could really stand to add some core strength as well. That whole combination of core, shoulder, and arm needs to add up to "arm strength". It will be interesting to see how he develops and tones over time. TB isn't exactly a "body builder" but it does seem like he really toned up over time. One thing about McCorkle is that he seems to have adequate throwing strength, and there also seems to be room for improvement there (if he can keep his mechanics in oder while he does it).
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
49,407
Sorry - how do you gauge core strength by looking at a person, and what’s core?
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,246
Dallas
Sorry - how do you gauge core strength by looking at a person?
I’m not sure it matters as much as SimplyEric thinks.
One of the odd things I learned about QB arm talent and getting a stronger arm was that a lot of improvement comes from getting more range of motion in the upper body. I remember Waldman talking about how Drew Brees improved his arm strength by working on flexibility. If you are super tight in the upper body it can impact how you throw it which can therefore potentially impact your velocity. For a lot of guys it’s about flexibility and strength there. And then with getting more motion comes perfecting your mechanics. So it’s a wholistic approach and not just adding physical strength. Of course that being said Mac could stand to be in better shape and it seems clear to listening to the good reporters who have ties to the organization that even Mac Jones knew he needed to improve his physical conditioning.

and what’s core?
I thought we agreed not to go V&N here. ;)
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
2,458
I’m not sure it matters as much as SimplyEric thinks.
One of the odd things I learned about QB arm talent and getting a stronger arm was that a lot of improvement comes from getting more range of motion in the upper body. I remember Waldman talking about how Drew Brees improved his arm strength by working on flexibility. If you are super tight in the upper body it can impact how you throw it which can therefore potentially impact your velocity. For a lot of guys it’s about flexibility and strength there. And then with getting more motion comes perfecting your mechanics. So it’s a wholistic approach and not just adding physical strength. Of course that being said Mac could stand to be in better shape and it seems clear to listening to the good reporters who have ties to the organization that even Mac Jones knew he needed to improve his physical conditioning.



I thought we agreed not to go V&N here. ;)
I know that for pitchers core strength is extremely important because one of the keys in creating velocity is the torque you create by having your legs be facing a different direction than your torso then using your core to snap it back (sorry if that’s terribly worded). Is that different in football?

Also, I have no idea if Mac needs to add core strength or what pictures are being referenced, just asking a question about football throwing mechanics
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
Sorry - how do you gauge core strength by looking at a person, and what’s core?
The core, generally speaking, is the torso. Yknow, as compared to the limbs and extremities…arms and legs and hands, etc. fee free to look it up (and then of course come back with further sarcasm)

and of course you can only tell so much from a picture, but for a man of your vanity, are you telling me that there aren’t visual cues to ‘strength’ that can be seen in pictures?
Cam is jacked and pumped. McCorkle…not so much. Cam has some structural issues that aren’t visible in pictures, but that’s a different issue

are you trying to say that when people talk about a qb’s ‘arm strength’ that it’s really only about the ‘arms’? Biceps and triceps? Like, that’s your angle here?

Or do you think maybe the muscles of the torso also aid in the ability to throw? Yes any legs too.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
49,407
No disrespect SSF, I’d like to answer earnestly:

The ability to throw deep, like the ability to punch hard or hit homers is obviously contingent on the athlete’s ability to incorporate various muscle groups, including the posterior chain, thighs, abs, etc. (core is kind of a joke term in fitness circles, but the sarcasm there was unwarranted).

On the other hand, a lot of dudes with big arms - Rodgers, Favre, Marino, Wilson, Stafford are super average looking. I don’t think it’s possible to “look at someone’s core” and determine their arm strength any more than it’s possible to look at a dude like Pedro and see he can throw high 90s.

Frankly, I’d be interested in what combination of leverages, fast twitch muscle, technique and (x?) make up arm strength. But what I’m pretty sure of is it’s not visual.

From what I’ve seen with fighters - that also seems to carry over to pitching or quarterbacking - is it’s all muscle fiber type and leverages/muscle attachments. Look at the biceps and triceps attachments of most heavy hitters or fast throwers - they always seem to be way down by the elbow.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
21,285
A Scud Away from Hell
None taken & appreciate the post.

The word "core" gets thrown around but I only have a vague idea of what it actually means and how it relates to a QB's performance.

Flexibility does seem to matter quite a bit in being able to "sling" the arm to generate the necessary speed. The "core" strength may be necessary to keep the body stable to aid in accuracy as much as acceleration (I have an image of a trebuchet in mind).
 
Last edited:

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
31,970
Melrose, MA
The ability to throw deep, like the ability to punch hard or hit homers is obviously contingent on the athlete’s ability to incorporate various muscle groups, including the posterior chain, thighs, abs, etc. (core is kind of a joke term in fitness circles, but the sarcasm there was unwarranted).
I think this is the important point and explains why someone like Brady was able to seem to markedly improve his 'arm' during his time in the NFL.
 

EL Jeffe

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,066
Jim Nagy (Senior Bowl director, ex NE/NFL scout) was on Phil Perry's podcast after the Senior Bowl, and he gave some great insight into Mac. Perry asked him about Mac's athletic limitations and the other QBs having higher ceilings because of it. Nagy gave a fascinating answer which sort of stopped me in my tracks and made me reevaluate some of my preconceived opinions. Paraphrasing, Nagy mentioned media/fans/Draft Twitter correlate upside and ceiling to their physical ability but the NFL doesn't think that way. He said Mac is relatively inexperienced, with 17 starts. He's already this good and the game is already pretty slow for him; how good is he going to be with more experience the way he studies and learns? He pointed out how Mac just kept getting exponentially better the more he played, capped off with a great CFB playoff run; why just assume he's leveled out? There's a ceiling and upside component to the mental part of the game as well. Just like every player has different physical ability, every player also has different processing abilities. (He also mentioned Mac is definitely a better athlete with a better arm than a lot of people give him credit for).
I'm replying to myself here because I think it's somewhat pertinent to the ongoing discussion, but also has proven (thus far, SUPER early into the process) to be true. I continue to hear naysayers point out that Mac is somehow "maxed out" and I find that to be a hilariously bad take.

Nagy appears to be spot on with his Mac assessment.Tying a QB's physical traits to their overall potential is such a shortsighted view of why NFL QBs are successful. What has anyone seen from Mac since April that would lead them to believe this is as good as he'll ever be? Hasn't he steadily improved since joining the team? Hasn't he shown better command of the offense as he's gained experience? Hasn't the narrative from not only the people who cover the team the closest, but also from BB, McDaniels, and his teammates as well been that when Mac makes a mistake, he works his butt off to understand why and correct it? And hasn't that proven to have been the case? You can't be both maxed out and also getting exponentially better the more reps and practice time you get.

The Mac is maxed out nonsense is just such a bad take.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,962
Also, the mental processing part is extremely important. It's what set Tom Brady apart from the others. Mac may be good at that or not, I don't know, but that muscle is between the ears, not in his arm.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
42,540
Also, the mental processing part is extremely important. It's what set Tom Brady apart from the others. Mac may be good at that or not, I don't know, but that muscle is between the ears, not in his arm.
Think about, for example, Jared Goff (1st overall!!). IIRC, his pre-snap processing abilities were so bad that McVay wouldn’t let him audible, and even several years into it in the SB matchup with NE he’s still having serious issues handling any kind of pass rush. A preternatural football IQ can carry you a long way. We’ll see how it goes when the games start to count but hard not to be excited with where he is right now.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,583
The core, generally speaking, is the torso. Yknow, as compared to the limbs and extremities…arms and legs and hands, etc. fee free to look it up (and then of course come back with further sarcasm)

and of course you can only tell so much from a picture, but for a man of your vanity, are you telling me that there aren’t visual cues to ‘strength’ that can be seen in pictures?
Cam is jacked and pumped. McCorkle…not so much. Cam has some structural issues that aren’t visible in pictures, but that’s a different issue

are you trying to say that when people talk about a qb’s ‘arm strength’ that it’s really only about the ‘arms’? Biceps and triceps? Like, that’s your angle here?

Or do you think maybe the muscles of the torso also aid in the ability to throw? Yes any legs too.
Some muscles are just show me muscles and aren't very practical when it comes to certain things. "A man of your vanity" "visual cues." It's cosmetic.
Let's move off of the core talk, sarcasm or not .
My bad. Marciano answered it better than me anyway.
 

Big McCorkle

Member
SoSH Member
May 9, 2021
114
The Mac is maxed out nonsense is just such a bad take.
The "high level physical traits=high ceiling" meme has always been a head scratcher when the two best QBs in NFL history are Tom Brady and then,several steps behind him, Peyton Manning.

Brady is the ceiling.
 

koufax32

He'll cry if he wants to...
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2006
7,999
Duval
The "high level physical traits=high ceiling" meme has always been a head scratcher when the two best QBs in NFL history are Tom Brady and then,several steps behind him, Peyton Manning.

Brady is the ceiling.
You misspelled “Montana.”

Your point still stands though as the top 3 all have the same characteristics.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

RIP Dernell
SoSH Member
Mar 24, 2008
5,375
The "high level physical traits=high ceiling" meme has always been a head scratcher when the two best QBs in NFL history are Tom Brady and then,several steps behind him, Peyton Manning.

Brady is the ceiling.
Let's look at the 3 runaway statistical leaders. Brees was never known due a cannon either, just being extremely accurate.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
21,583
I didn’t need to see that video.

To the arm strength topic. I watched Chad Pennington win a lot of games with an awful arm (he busted his shoulder trying to keep up with Vinny T and was never the same). So, I wouldn’t be concerned. My opinion is that Mac’s arm isn’t great but he is in one of the best spots he could be in to succeed. He is still a question mark though as are all these rookies. I’ve seen a lot of guys light it up in the preseason and go on to do nothing. This is why even though I’m madly in love with Zach Wilson my eyes are wide open that this could end in tears.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
No disrespect SSF, I’d like to answer earnestly:

The ability to throw deep, like the ability to punch hard or hit homers is obviously contingent on the athlete’s ability to incorporate various muscle groups, including the posterior chain, thighs, abs, etc. (core is kind of a joke term in fitness circles, but the sarcasm there was unwarranted).

On the other hand, a lot of dudes with big arms - Rodgers, Favre, Marino, Wilson, Stafford are super average looking. I don’t think it’s possible to “look at someone’s core” and determine their arm strength any more than it’s possible to look at a dude like Pedro and see he can throw high 90s.

Frankly, I’d be interested in what combination of leverages, fast twitch muscle, technique and (x?) make up arm strength. But what I’m pretty sure of is it’s not visual.

From what I’ve seen with fighters - that also seems to carry over to pitching or quarterbacking - is it’s all muscle fiber type and leverages/muscle attachments. Look at the biceps and triceps attachments of most heavy hitters or fast throwers - they always seem to be way down by the elbow.
At the risk of pushing the dope’s patience too far:

Your post basically agrees with everything i said here except for one thing.
In particular, you’re reinforcing part of my point: that ‘arm strength’ isn’t just about the arms. we agree on that much, as you mostly reiterated with (knowledgeable) detail what I posted. You’re not disagreeing with me on that, as far as I read you.

I never said I could look at McCorkle and judge his throwing abilities.
i did say you can look at someone and say ‘that person could tone up more, and it might improve his ‘arm’ (overall body) strength.’ I understand that you might disagree with that…I’m not sure. But multiple people have talked about TB’s improvement over the years, and even for a ‘flexibility’ guy like him he looks different in ‘his prime’ than as a draft candidate. As a person develops physically, there are visible changes, no?
It varies widely between people..body type, age, etc. I’m in no way implying that Mac should mirror Cam. And yeah I’m responding to only like 1 or 2 pics….just like people here are responding to a couple of passes (was it a ‘rope’, a ‘frozen rope’, or a ‘toss’ at minute x:xx). I remember talk about Ellsbury coming into one season. ‘He looks like he worked out…forearms like ropes…maybe translates into power’. That sort of thing.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
49,407
At the risk of pushing the dope’s patience too far:

Your post basically agrees with everything i said here except for one thing.
In particular, you’re reinforcing part of my point: that ‘arm strength’ isn’t just about the arms. we agree on that much, as you mostly reiterated with (knowledgeable) detail what I posted. You’re not disagreeing with me on that, as far as I read you.

I never said I could look at McCorkle and judge his throwing abilities.
i did say you can look at someone and say ‘that person could tone up more, and it might improve his ‘arm’ (overall body) strength.’ I understand that you might disagree with that…I’m not sure. But multiple people have talked about TB’s improvement over the years, and even for a ‘flexibility’ guy like him he looks different in ‘his prime’ than as a draft candidate. As a person develops physically, there are visible changes, no?
It varies widely between people..body type, age, etc. I’m in no way implying that Mac should mirror Cam. And yeah I’m responding to only like 1 or 2 pics….just like people here are responding to a couple of passes (was it a ‘rope’, a ‘frozen rope’, or a ‘toss’ at minute x:xx). I remember talk about Ellsbury coming into one season. ‘He looks like he worked out…forearms like ropes…maybe translates into power’. That sort of thing.
I understand. Toning is about bf%. If you’re looking at abs or forearm definition, it might be a byproduct of their genetics or overall training, but nobody is going to say “if you wanna throw harder, lean out.” Rather, definition will be a byproduct of an appropriate training regimen. But I’ve also read folks like Pavel claim that too low a bf% can be deleterious for athletes, and I imagine there’s a reason why Brady and others never walked around with a 6-pack despite all world diets and training.

Again, look at all the big arms people have mentioned here - Manning, Stafford, Brady. These are guys with average physiques. What’s making their arms so live is stuff you can’t tell from a shirtless selfie - or at least not in the way you’re describing. It’s muscle fiber type and technique - and yes, I believe, muscle insertion points.

Of course, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Clemens wasn’t ever lean, and like Tyson, he had short muscle insertions but generated so much power with his legs that he found another avenue. But, look at Tyson’s jab - it always sucked because of his muscle insertions and because - I’d guess - he wasn’t super fast twitch so much as insanely powerful with great leverages and the ability to quickly throw his whole body into his punches.

For every Ellsbury, there are a million Gabe Kaplers. Looking at a physique - unless you have a highly trained eye and know exactly what you’re looking for, is a poor way to judge explosiveness or arm strength.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,738
Richmond, VA
I understand. Toning is about bf%. If you’re looking at abs or forearm definition, it might be a byproduct of their genetics or overall training, but nobody is going to say “if you wanna throw harder, lean out.” Rather, definition will be a byproduct of an appropriate training regimen. But I’ve also read folks like Pavel claim that too low a bf% can be deleterious for athletes, and I imagine there’s a reason why Brady and others never walked around with a 6-pack despite all world diets and training.

Again, look at all the big arms people have mentioned here - Manning, Stafford, Brady. These are guys with average physiques. What’s making their arms so live is stuff you can’t tell from a shirtless selfie - or at least not in the way you’re describing. It’s muscle fiber type and technique - and yes, I believe, muscle insertion points.

Of course, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Clemens wasn’t ever lean, and like Tyson, he had short muscle insertions but generated so much power with his legs that he found another avenue. But, look at Tyson’s jab - it always sucked because of his muscle insertions and because - I’d guess - he wasn’t super fast twitch so much as insanely powerful with great leverages and the ability to quickly throw his whole body into his punches.

For every Ellsbury, there are a million Gabe Kaplers. Looking at a physique - unless you have a highly trained eye and know exactly what you’re looking for, is a poor way to judge explosiveness or arm strength.
I could be wrong, but wasn’t (isn’t?) ‘prime’ Brady visibly more ‘toned’ than back in 2000? Obviously correlation/causation issues, but people here have talked about his throwing strength improving over time, and I think that corresponds with a lot of things: mechanics, experience, and yeah ‘tone’. He looks more fit in the middle of his career.
And again, I’m not looking at McCorkle and calling that predictive of his throwing Strength.
im looking at him and calling that (speculating) predictive of his ability to increase his throwing strength as he conditions and reaches his prime. Obviously, mechanics and experience count too, and I never disregarded those (i certainly didn’t mean to).
So A. Throwing strength is more than just ‘arm strength’ but obviously that’s the shorthand term people use.
And B. You can, sometimes, look at someone and have some notion that he/she might have room to increase overall strength.
I think that’s all I said (and I understand that you may disagree with B)
 

Bowser

lurker
Sep 27, 2019
112
You're both right. Rodgers, Stafford et. al have average physiques and cannons for arms. And McCorkle has, at the moment, a below-average physique. We'd all like to see what happens when he gets to average.