I'd have thought Thompkins honestly, Dobson is younger, taller, faster, and you take an extra quarter million dollar cap hit if you cut him. Neither was active last week.Kliq said:
Patriots waived WR Kenbrell Thompkins
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Chemistry Schmemistry said:
This was my first thought as well. Could have been Thompkins that yelled at McDaniels.
Kliq said:
I would have assumed Tyms, Wright, and Amendola before Thompkins.
This move is surprising, but doesn't have the potential to look as bad as the Mankins, Kelly, and Welker decisions.
Kliq said:
not at all.
Cellar-Door said:
yep.
I have no idea what the fuss is on this move. I'm a bit confused on Browner/Tyms. Browner is clearly out and they have the option to keep Tyms inactive w/out costing a roster spot until Monday, as well. But is it confirmed they're not activating Tyms for Cincy? I get that both guys probably need more time than a week to be prepared for a game, probably Tyms more than Browner given his experience, and Browner would be more likely to help given his nice match up with Sanu, but as with others Tyms the binky has me curious. So still hoping!
Geez it's about time someone posted this. It's the equivalent of which low-level PTBNL prospect from high-A ball is being moved to complete a trade.Stitch01 said:
Thompkins is an end of roster receiver who doesnt play special teams and was behind a number of receivers for playing time. I'm not sure I'll ever notice that he's not on the field. On to Cincinnati.
Kliq said:
I would have thought Dobson put a hole in BB's boat and had an affair with his girlfriend if he got cut this week.
In other words, it takes extreme circumstances for a 2nd round pick (#59 in Dobson's case) to get released in his 2nd year.
I also echo other posters' points that KT's release has as much to do with the emergence of LaFell and the grand (ahem) return of the Aaron "The Mouth" Dobson.
Also would not be surprised if KT clears waivers and added to the PS.
Also would not be surprised if KT clears waivers and added to the PS.
The Tommy Kelly decision only looks bad to the mediots that don't understand the salary cap and instead took verbatim his comments about the team's reluctance to spend money being a reason he was cut. He looked terrible in camp, and 5 tackles in 3 games doesn't exactly scream Pro Bowl to me.Phragle said:
The Mankins decision looks bad because the OL looks bad. But so does Mankins right now. And I'll keep my toe out of the Welker situation; that horse is best left buried.
I swear to God if someone else brings up the Welker contract situation, I will post something about it as a thread and threaten lives about it being pinned and locked so that we can stop talking about the Patriots somehow being blamed for not signing him.
I'm over this shit. Learn why things happen
I'm over this shit. Learn why things happen
CaptainLaddie said:
So it is said, so it shall be done.
Laddie's right. It's beyond time that a community that prides itself on "intelligent" discussion "learns why things happened".
Welker contact talk has nothing to do with this thread and further posts on that subject will be split out into a thread where Laddie can learn you.
Good. Thompkins, in SSS, has taken multiple steps back this year, and was overrated last year. I hope this means that Dobson is finally active.
In any case, unless the line starts gelling when Tom passes, it doesn't matter who is at WR anyways.
This makes way more sense to me than the Mankins scratch.
In any case, unless the line starts gelling when Tom passes, it doesn't matter who is at WR anyways.
This makes way more sense to me than the Mankins scratch.
I don't want to start a new thread for this, but Matt Chatham wrote an article about Brady's lack of weapons.
http://www.footballbyfootball.com/column/reviewing-the-no-weapons-for-brady-tale
http://www.footballbyfootball.com/column/reviewing-the-no-weapons-for-brady-tale
the1andonly3003 said:
He was a good 3rd WR, serviceable 2nd WR but lets not get carried away. He never came close to 80 rec or 1K yards in a season.
People seem to think he was a lot better than he was. Great value for his draft position but he really isn't that special.
ifmanis5 said:
Before you call this an epic fail, you need to look at how this compares to other team's track records. After you got that down, then you need to throw out any receivers above pick 20 where the Patriots wouldn't have a draft pick that high.
Looking at some very topside math, you've got about 100 receivers (about 3 per team) in the mix right now in the NFL and assuming the Pats picked an average amount of them about 300 WRs picked over that time frame. That is 1 in 3 right there across the league. That is before you look at the receivers taken in the 1st round before the Pats had a shot.
It might be an epic fail, but without considering: 1. How the rest of the teams did. 2. Draft positions of the WR that were taken then you are just throwing shit against the wall.
CaptainLaddie said:
Laddie's Lockbox is soooo close to coming into existence. I have no fucking idea what's going on.
And the idea that David Givens doesn't count - when talking about WRs drafted - is so bassackwards that it makes my head hurt. I mean, if the question is "who have they drafted at WR who has had NFL success" you don't get to exclude a guy because he doesn't reach an arbitrary number of catches or yards. You include the guy in the evidence. Even when it makes your point less dramatic and hotsportstakey.
SeoulSoxFan said:
kolbitr said:
You're both right, we should take a closer, empirical look at the Pats' record developing receivers in-house in order to address these questions. I'm going to admit to liking Thompkins' story alot, perhaps more than his performance.
Here's some numbers on the Pats' drafted WRs under Belichick:
2002
D. Branch 43 Catches
D. Givens 9 Catches
Team Total 374 Catches
13.9% of Catches
2003
D. Branch 57
D. Givens 34
B. Johnson 16
Team 320
33.4%
2004
D. Givens 56
D. Branch 35
Team 293
31%
2005
D. Branch 78
D. Givens 59
Team 352
38.9%
2006
C. Jackson 0
Team 326
0%
2007
0 catches by WRs drafted by Pats
2008
0 catches by WRs drafted by Pats
2009
B. Tate 0
J. Edelman 37
Team 390
9.5%
2010
D. Branch 48
B. Tate 24
J. Edelman 7
T. Price 3
Team 331
24.8%
2011
D. Branch 51
J. Edelman 4
Team 402
13.7%
2012
J. Edelman 21
D. Branch 16
J. Ebert 0
Team 402
9.2%
2013
J. Edelman 105
A. Dobson 37
K. Thompkins 32
J. Boyce 9
Team 380
48.16%
Observations:
* Thompkins is the only UDFA receiver I could identify in BB's tenure to make any catches in the regular season. Who am I missing?
* BB-drafted or UFDA WRs with 30+ catches in one season: Branch, Givens, Edelman, Dobson, Thompkins.
* BB-drafted WRs without a 30+ catch season: B. Johnson, C. Jackson, B. Tate, T.Price, J. Ebert - all Not Successes.
* Is a single 30+ catch season the measure of a succesful development of a WR? Maybe not, then you could move Dobson and Thompkins to the list of Not Successes (of course, the jury is still out on Dobson, so add 'Yet.')
*It's obvious that Branch is the most successful WR BB drafted, Givens next, and I need to pin a gold star on Edelman for having by far the most receptions in a single season by any BB-drafted WR (last year) and his 5-year tenure(which has a lot to do with his ST value,) as a success.
Disclaimers:
My numbers could be checked.
Didn't count Slater. Didn't take into account special teams plays, only examines plays as WR.
What would make this more meaningful? Maybe to compare this to other top-5 offenses during BB's tenure. Anyone?
Edit: Edelman's 4 catches in 2011
I think the proper comparison is the amount of draft capital expended and what the expected performance would be. By my accounting, the Patriots are the only team that hasn't used a first-round pick on a WR since 2000: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2014&type=&round_min=1&round_max=1&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=&pos=WR&college_id=all&conference=any&show=allmulluysavage said:
soxfan121 said:
He counts as a largely fungible WR that was good value for 7th rd. If he was a 1st or 2nd he would have been much less value. I'd argue every team has drafted a David Givens in the past 10 yrs, big whoop. It is telling that you have to recall a David Givens as part of the argument that this team can draft wide receivers. It actually makes my head hurt that we need to discuss David Givens, teams should fall into a David Givens every few years. LaFell is basically David Givens.
Also lets not forget that NE traded the draft picks that were used to select Dez Bryant and Demaryius Thomas so the idea that they never get to pick those types of players is ridiculous and patently wrong.
Given that Edelman was drafted in the 7th round, we should probably not include him. And Branch never had 80 catches nor 1000 yards, so the Patriots are now down to zero impact receivers drafted.
You guys should go talk about the WRs in the Thompkins thread about WRs where a poster actually did some research about WR production instead of the thread about Brady possibly whining.
j44thor said:
Please show your work. Some possible sources you could search can be found in the Research Requests thread pinned to the top of the forum.
It would be interesting to prove or disprove this hypothesis. I look forward to your argument having a factual basis instead of an unsupported assertion.
soxfan121 said:
David Givens career stats: 166 rec, 2318 yds, 12 tds
Decided to look at 3rd rd and lower drafted WR between Givens draft year and 2012 since 2013/14 are still TBD.
WRs drafted 3rd rd or lower between 2002-2012 to equal or better those stats:
OAK - Ronald Curry: 193/2347/13
NYJ - Jericho Cotchery 450/5716/30
NYG - Kevin Walter 356/4379/25
SFO - Arnaz Battle 178/2150/11
CHI - Justin Gage 201/295816
CHI - Bobby Wade 244/2858/9
SFO - Brandon Lloyd 388/5728/35
STL - Shaun McDonald 220/2490/11
STL - Kevin Curtis 253/3297/20
MN - Nate Burleson 457/3560/39
DAL - Patrick Crayton 247/3650/25
JAX - Ernest Wilford 156/2145/15
CHI - Bernard Berrian 288/4122/24
NO - Marques Colston 619/8522/64
SFO - Delanie Walker 205/2353/17
DEN - Brandon Marshall a lot more
PHI - Jason Avant 307/3736/13
ARZ - Steve Breaston 255/3387/9
GB - James Jones 331/4577/39
ATL - Laurent Robinson 167/2110/15
HOU - Jacoby Jones 197/2622/14
BUF - Stevie Johnson 315/406/29+
IND - Pierre Garcon 369/4573/26
SF - Josh Morgan 203/2521/11
NYG - Mario Manningham 211/2849/19
ATL - Harry Douglas 219/2696/9
CHI - Earl Bennett 185/2277/12
NE - Julian Edelman
PHI - Brandon Gibson 211/2481/12
MIA - Brian Hartline 275/2930/11
PIT - Mike Wallace a lot more
PIT - Antonio Brown a lot more
TAM - Mike Williams 222/3081/26
PHI - Riley Cooper 108/1639/13
ARI - Andre Roberts 192/2258/12
DEN - Eric Decker 236/3274/35
PIT - Emanuel Sanders 186/2634/11
CAR - Brandon Lafell 177/2550/14
NJY - Jeremy Kerley 144/1808/7
OAK - Denarius Moore 138/2114/17
JAX - Cecil Shorts 130/1846/12
IND - TY Hilton 154/2235/12
Believe that is 42 WRs listed and a handful more will probably make the list from the 2011-2012 drafts.
Teams should roughly expect 1.3 WR from this class of player on their team during this period. I guess NE can claim success with both Edelman and Givens on this list but as already pointed out they are the only team not to use a 1st rd pick on a WR so chances are good they have spent more draft capital in later rds than average teams. Someone else can confirm this if they want.
So... not "every team has drafted a David Givens in the past 10 yrs"? Interesting.
Thanks for the list of 3rd round-or-later guys, though. That's also interesting, albeit for different reasons.
Again, I'm gonna need to see your work as "chances are good" is a rather imprecise measure on something that can be, with research, actually proven.
Thanks for the list of 3rd round-or-later guys, though. That's also interesting, albeit for different reasons.
Again, I'm gonna need to see your work as "chances are good" is a rather imprecise measure on something that can be, with research, actually proven.
Another observation: Givens and Branch were drafted in 2002. There were no 30+ catch seasons by any other drafted or UDFA Patriot WR until 2103.
When discussing David Givens, keep in mind that his career ended 5 games after he left the Patriots due to a very serious knee injury that was basically horrible luck. During his time with the Pats, he looked as if he was on his way to a decent career.
j44thor said:
No, you said every team had drafted a Givens in the 7th round...and then provided a list of 3rd-7th round picks. That doesn't "prove your case".
You could have admitted your initial claim turned out - once you researched it - to not be true but you've instead shifted the goal posts to 3rd-7th round AND made another unsupported assertion about something that can, if researched, be proven.
All I'm asking is that you back up your theories with evidence. It's been a basic requirement at SoSH for years, whether here, the main board, RMPS...everywhere. When you make an assertion, you need to show your work.
If the standard is every team then you might not be able to prove that. I think the spirit of the point j44 is making is that those types of receivers are uncommon (common, j44?) but not rare. Perhaps not every team drafted one but for 9 years, 2002-2010 (waiting for 2011 and 2012 to have time), there have been 42 receivers that match that production. At roughly 4.666 per year they certainly aren't in abundance... and that doesn't take into account the miss rate which would be considerable.
Edit: At that rate it would take 6.86 years to produce 32 receivers.
Edit: At that rate it would take 6.86 years to produce 32 receivers.
