Patriots Training Camp 2022

Captaincoop

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What do you consider "contending"? Vegas has their o/u on wins at 8.5. Calling a team projected to win 8 or 9 games a non-contender doesn't seem insane to me.

Personally I have a lot of faith in BB and think they can be a dangerous playoff team, but most neutral observers probably don't consider the Pats contenders this year.
 

Bowhemian

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What do you consider "contending"? Vegas has their o/u on wins at 8.5. Calling a team projected to win 8 or 9 games a non-contender doesn't seem insane to me.

Personally I have a lot of faith in BB and think they can be a dangerous playoff team, but most neutral observers probably don't consider the Pats contenders this year.
I'd say 10 wins is a contender.
Several significantly better teams, most notably the Bills in their own division.
Very valid point, but that doesn't mean that the Pats won't be contending for a playoff spot.

Regardless of contending/not contending, I think it is going to be a very interesting, fun year to watch.
 

Ale Xander

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I'd say 10 wins is a contender.

Very valid point, but that doesn't mean that the Pats won't be contending for a playoff spot.

Regardless of contending/not contending, I think it is going to be a very interesting, fun year to watch.
Contending for a championship is what counts.

This isn’t the Dolphins/Browns/WFT/Vikings etc.

Edit: Dogman, I wasn't trolling Dolphins fans, just trying to come up with a good example of a team that hasn't won in a long time.
 
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Rico Guapo

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I am not a football coach but I thought Godchaux got pushed off his spot against interior runs consistently last year, also saw his shoulder pads turned perpendicular to the LOS way too much as he wasn't controlling lanes.

Now the linebackers behind him were old and terrible but the team got gashed on the ground all the same, IMO that doesn't square up with a starting DT being one of the best defensive linemen in the league.
 

snowmanny

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Several significantly better teams, most notably the Bills in their own division.
Eh. The Bengals went 10-7 and came within a hair of winning the Super Bowl. I’ll bet you after week 14 when they were 7-6 you could have named “several significantly better teams” in the conference.

Get in the tournament and play your best ball.
 

BigJimEd

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It's not like @Ale Xander is out there on an island with their take. Many are expecting the defense to take a step back with some question marks in the secondary and at LB. Offensively, you have new coaches and potential scheme changes.

The over/under of 8.5 wins puts them in a group contending for a playoff spot but clearly below the top teams. I'd be happy with a playoff berth but I am not expecting much more than that and wouldn't be surprised if they fell short of that.
 

Bigdogx

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I don't know, maybe it's because you need to literally be in your mid 40's to have remembered a Patriots team that has struggle, but it will be a first time for many this upcoming season. Imo patriots will fall to dead last in the division and 4-6 wins total this season. A few injuries and your literally down to no names for replacements on this team, they not only have very little depth but very little starting presence either this year. I just don't realistically see this team going anywhere but sideways at best right now.
 

DJnVa

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I don't know, maybe it's because you need to literally be in your mid 40's to have remembered a Patriots team that has struggle, but it will be a first time for many this upcoming season. Imo patriots will fall to dead last in the division and 4-6 wins total this season. A few injuries and your literally down to no names for replacements on this team, they not only have very little depth but very little starting presence either this year. I just don't realistically see this team going anywhere but sideways at best right now.
The 2020 Patriots season, literally 2 years ago, was a struggle.

What does "little starting presence" mean?
 

snowmanny

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I don't know, maybe it's because you need to literally be in your mid 40's to have remembered a Patriots team that has struggle, but it will be a first time for many this upcoming season. Imo patriots will fall to dead last in the division and 4-6 wins total this season. A few injuries and your literally down to no names for replacements on this team, they not only have very little depth but very little starting presence either this year. I just don't realistically see this team going anywhere but sideways at best right now.
I’m not predicting the Oats necessarily make the playoffs, and I agree Ale Xander may be right and they may not even be in the hunt by the end of the year.....but you are going to need to sell me on the Jets.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I am not a football coach but I thought Godchaux got pushed off his spot against interior runs consistently last year, also saw his shoulder pads turned perpendicular to the LOS way too much as he wasn't controlling lanes.

Now the linebackers behind him were old and terrible but the team got gashed on the ground all the same, IMO that doesn't square up with a starting DT being one of the best defensive linemen in the league.
I mean, people posting here think he's average to outright sucks and BB thinks he's one of the best. I know who I trust in that matrix.
 

Shelterdog

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Interesting take as I thought he was one of their better defensive players last year. But I defer to the (film) experts.
Honestly I watched the team pretty carefully, I try to watch the DL (and barmore especially) in particular and I don't have strong views on Godschaux--and I'm always envious of the fans who know enough football who can judge lineplay so well.

One point in Godschaux's favor: Bedard dislikes his play.

That the Pats didn't add much on the DL and the extension suggests BB and the Pats coaches think he is doing a pretty good job so we've got that going for us, which is nice.
 

Jungleland

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There will be plenty of time and threads for predictions, but I think people are sleeping on how good this offense can be. That alone keeps me from realistically viewing the Jets as a threat to finish ahead of them, has me similarly optimistic about where they’ll end up seeded in comparison to the Dolphins, and imo doesn’t rule out them beating Buffalo at least once.

I’m worried as anyone about the defense and am ultimately expecting them to fall far short of a Super Bowl for that reason - there was plenty of time between 07 and the Seahawks SB win where we saw what struggling at corner could do to their overall chances - but I really think Mac has to shit the bed fully for last place in the division to be as likely as a playoff berth.
 

BaseballJones

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I don't know, maybe it's because you need to literally be in your mid 40's to have remembered a Patriots team that has struggle, but it will be a first time for many this upcoming season. Imo patriots will fall to dead last in the division and 4-6 wins total this season. A few injuries and your literally down to no names for replacements on this team, they not only have very little depth but very little starting presence either this year. I just don't realistically see this team going anywhere but sideways at best right now.
The Pats have a good young QB. They have a really good OL. They have a great RB group. They have pretty solid (if not spectacular) TEs. Same for their receiving corps. If Brady had this receiving corps he, without question, could win a Super Bowl with it.

It's the defense that has me concerned, today's good day notwithstanding.
 

Shaky Walton

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The Pats have a good young QB. They have a really good OL. They have a great RB group. They have pretty solid (if not spectacular) TEs. Same for their receiving corps. If Brady had this receiving corps he, without question, could win a Super Bowl with it.

It's the defense that has me concerned, today's good day notwithstanding.
After watching the Bills' offense literally look like men against boys against the Pats, and with very few, if any, impact players added to the defense, it's very understandable to be concerned.

We've often been pleasantly surprised, and with the linebacker crew being younger, and a fresh start, the defense could be better than many expect. Belichick is still here. Barmore will no longer be a rookie. You never know.

But damn, I bet the Bills are licking their chops at another run at that D.
 

Shelterdog

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After watching the Bills' offense literally look like men against boys against the Pats, and with very few, if any, impact players added to the defense, it's very understandable to be concerned.

We've often been pleasantly surprised, and with the linebacker crew being younger, and a fresh start, the defense could be better than many expect. Belichick is still here. Barmore will no longer be a rookie. You never know.

But damn, I bet the Bills are licking their chops at another run at that D.
I'm a bigger believer that the problem in buffalo was the x's and o's, not the joes--even with a somewhat banged up team no NFL team is that physically superior to any other NFL team. Brian Daboll simply had the Pats absolutely perplexed from the start.

The defensive personnel should be somewhat better but if the defensive coaching staff puts together a plan like that again the team gets killed out there again.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'm going to wait to form opinions one way or the other on this team until the pads come on. These are glorified OTAs this week. I think the offense has a chance to be really good as long as the O-line holds up. Defensively, I want to see how the deploy everyone. Yesterday at one point they had McMillan and Wilson paired together at LB. That is a really big improvement speed-wise than last year and they'll have Bentley for running downs. What does McGrone look like? I want to see how the safeties are used.

The two areas I'm most concerned with on the team is CB and IDL. If they go to 4-man fronts, will they abandon their 2-gapping and let guys like Barmore go up the field and attack? That may improve how they play.

The preseason is going to be a fascinating watch.
 

BusRaker

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The preseason is going to be a fascinating watch.
I'll be curious at the distribution of the QB snaps. Does Mac get the Brady-established-starter minimal reps or will BB step it up a bit with his second year QB to get more work in?
 

GB5

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Of course Bill can do whatever he wants but Meyers is Mac’s favorite receiver, I would be very surprised to see him moved. I still think that if anyone is moved it will be Agholor.
 

BigJimEd

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One of the CBS writers predicts Agholor to the Packers. Would save the Pats about $9M.
 

Harry Hooper

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One of the CBS writers predicts Agholor to the Packers. Would save the Pats about $9M.
That would seem to be an irresistible move to open up cap space given the rest of the WR contingent in camp.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I don’t really see the Pats WR room as deep. You’d have to be damn sure Thornton will be an instant starter-level receiver - which is not necessarily common for rookie receivers - and have a plan behind him.

They have just under 3M in cap space right now - I wouldn’t be freely trading starters at skill positions to free up money they don’t actually need right now. And there are a few other areas they can make space as needed. For example, they can save like 1.5M by cutting Joejuan Williams, which seems like a plausible outcome anyways.
 

Super Nomario

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I don’t really see the Pats WR room as deep. You’d have to be damn sure Thornton will be an instant starter-level receiver - which is not necessarily common for rookie receivers - and have a plan behind him.

They have just under 3M in cap space right now - I wouldn’t be freely trading starters at skill positions to free up money they don’t actually need right now. And there are a few other areas they can make space as needed. For example, they can save like 1.5M by cutting Joejuan Williams, which seems like a plausible outcome anyways.
Is Agholor a starter, with Parker, Meyers, and Bourne in the fold? He might be the fourth WR on a team that figures to do a decent amount of 2 WR groupings, which makes him a luxury at his price tag.
 

Jungleland

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I fall somewhere between Mystic and SN on an Agholor trade. With Parker’s history of injuries, I think Agholor toes the line between luxury and necessity even if he is overpaid and 4th in the pecking order. I also think he has some 2020 Raiders form upside if Mac takes a leap. That said, I thought there was no chance they’d actually trade Sony at this time last year, and I would argue the performance to $$ ratio was a lot more favorable in his case.

I’ve been looking at the theoretical strength of this passing game as there being 6-7 legitimate NFL-starter caliber pass catchers between the top 4 WR, the two tight ends, and Montgomery before you get into the lottery ticket level players. Little top end talent, but depth that ensures late game fresh legs and minimal drop off as they navigate injuries. From that perspective, a trade would be interesting as a vote of confidence in some combo of Thornton, Nixon, Wilkerson, and the dude they just picked up from the Jags.

The WR room is one of the battles I’m most interested in this camp and preseason - one of the more interesting spots in terms of the multi year outlook.
 

Saints Rest

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I'm going to wait to form opinions one way or the other on this team until the pads come on. These are glorified OTAs this week. I think the offense has a chance to be really good as long as the O-line holds up. Defensively, I want to see how the deploy everyone. Yesterday at one point they had McMillan and Wilson paired together at LB. That is a really big improvement speed-wise than last year and they'll have Bentley for running downs. What does McGrone look like? I want to see how the safeties are used.

The two areas I'm most concerned with on the team is CB and IDL. If they go to 4-man fronts, will they abandon their 2-gapping and let guys like Barmore go up the field and attack? That may improve how they play.

The preseason is going to be a fascinating watch.
I agree that there is likely to be a big uptick in speed at LB. I think we may also see a lot Big Nickel. I feel like a lot of the issues last year stemmed from not having enough guys who could cover and tackle in space. Jon Jones will be a big improvement over Myles Bryant. Faster LB's will be big improvements over DHT and KVN.
The edge opposite Judon remains a big question mark. Can Uche or Perkins be a positive factor out there?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I don’t really see the Pats WR room as deep. You’d have to be damn sure Thornton will be an instant starter-level receiver - which is not necessarily common for rookie receivers - and have a plan behind him.

They have just under 3M in cap space right now - I wouldn’t be freely trading starters at skill positions to free up money they don’t actually need right now. And there are a few other areas they can make space as needed. For example, they can save like 1.5M by cutting Joejuan Williams, which seems like a plausible outcome anyways.
Is Agholor a starter, with Parker, Meyers, and Bourne in the fold? He might be the fourth WR on a team that figures to do a decent amount of 2 WR groupings, which makes him a luxury at his price tag.
I fall somewhere between Mystic and SN on an Agholor trade. With Parker’s history of injuries, I think Agholor toes the line between luxury and necessity even if he is overpaid and 4th in the pecking order. I also think he has some 2020 Raiders form upside if Mac takes a leap. That said, I thought there was no chance they’d actually trade Sony at this time last year, and I would argue the performance to $$ ratio was a lot more favorable in his case.

I’ve been looking at the theoretical strength of this passing game as there being 6-7 legitimate NFL-starter caliber pass catchers between the top 4 WR, the two tight ends, and Montgomery before you get into the lottery ticket level players. Little top end talent, but depth that ensures late game fresh legs and minimal drop off as they navigate injuries. From that perspective, a trade would be interesting as a vote of confidence in some combo of Thornton, Nixon, Wilkerson, and the dude they just picked up from the Jags.

The WR room is one of the battles I’m most interested in this camp and preseason - one of the more interesting spots in terms of the multi year outlook.
If Agholor was signed primarily as a deep threat, I'd much rather save that cap and invest elsewhere and just let Thorton run streaks. It really depends on how they planned on utilizing Agholor this season.
 

Dogman

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This is the WR room:
Tyquan Thornton
Kendrick Bourne
Devante Parker
Ty Montgomery
Nelson Agholor
Kristian Wilkerson
Tre Nixon
Jakobi Meyers
Lil'Jordan Humphrey
Josh Hammond

As KFP mentions, there are other potential deep threats. I think I trade Agholor for the space and the pick(s).
 

snowmanny

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Shelterdog

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This is the WR room:
Tyquan Thornton
Kendrick Bourne
Devante Parker
Ty Montgomery
Nelson Agholor
Kristian Wilkerson
Tre Nixon
Jakobi Meyers
Lil'Jordan Humphrey
Josh Hammond

As KFP mentions, there are other potential deep threats. I think I trade Agholor for the space and the pick(s).
I think if you can trade Agholor you trade Agholor for anything other than guaranteed salary; hard to imagine they get 5 million worth of contribution
 

Eddie Jurak

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What does Jacobi Meyers do better than Agholor? Anything?

To me if they all break camp with the Pats it is Meyers who is very obviously the #4. I’m skeptical that there is anything a Meyers does better than Agholor, and Agholor, given Meyers’ role, would be more productive.

Whether Agholor’s cap money could be better spent elsewhere is a separate question.
 

IdiotKicker

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Meyers was literally the team’s best receiver last year. I think he does everything better than Agholor except for his raw foot speed being slower.
 

RG33

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The “too many WR” discussion here feels like a “too many SPs” discussion in the Red Sox thread. A healthy Agholor is a playmaker and difference maker for this unit. Having Meyers and Bourne in the slots with Parker on the outside finally gives them a full offense. It feels like they have been lacking this kind of depth for a good 4-5 years — and when you couple it with the depth at RB, makes for a potentially potent offense. With the injury histories of Parker and Agholor, I don’t understand why anyone would want to be trading Agholor to free up cap space unless we have a high end starting caliber player on the D that they can bring in and need the space for.
 

Euclis20

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The “too many WR” discussion here feels like a “too many SPs” discussion in the Red Sox thread. A healthy Agholor is a playmaker and difference maker for this unit. Having Meyers and Bourne in the slots with Parker on the outside finally gives them a full offense. It feels like they have been lacking this kind of depth for a good 4-5 years — and when you couple it with the depth at RB, makes for a potentially potent offense. With the injury histories of Parker and Agholor, I don’t understand why anyone would want to be trading Agholor to free up cap space unless we have a high end starting caliber player on the D that they can bring in and need the space for.
+1. Any WR discussion on this board makes me flash back to early 2019 when people were discussing how amazing a WR core of Antonio Brown, Josh Gordon and Julian Edelman would be, plus they had drafted Harry in the 1st round, plus Meyers had an incredible preseason as an undrafted rookie, plus everyone assumed Gronk would be coming back at some point. We know how that turned out.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Maybe, but he's led the team in catches and yards each of the last two years, and he's got just the 4th highest cap hit among WRs and the 6th highest among all skill players. His seems like money well spent.
He’s in the slot with a primary mission of functions as a safety valve. Put Agholor in the slot and his number of catches would spike while his yards per catch would decline.
 

Euclis20

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He’s in the slot with a primary mission of functions as a safety valve. Put Agholor in the slot and his number of catches would spike while his yards per catch would decline.
Agholor played primarily out of the slot in Philly, and he never piled up the receptions like Meyers did last year (83 for Meyers last year, compared with Agholor's career high of 64). Meyers also had 42 1st downs last year, a mark Agholor has never achieved (and Meyers had 37 the year before that, matching Agholor's career high). I haven't seen anything that indicates that Agholor would be more productive in that role, and that's ignoring the fact that Meyers is 4 years younger and much more likely to improve.
 

Jimbodandy

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The “too many WR” discussion here feels like a “too many SPs” discussion in the Red Sox thread. A healthy Agholor is a playmaker and difference maker for this unit. Having Meyers and Bourne in the slots with Parker on the outside finally gives them a full offense. It feels like they have been lacking this kind of depth for a good 4-5 years — and when you couple it with the depth at RB, makes for a potentially potent offense. With the injury histories of Parker and Agholor, I don’t understand why anyone would want to be trading Agholor to free up cap space unless we have a high end starting caliber player on the D that they can bring in and need the space for.
This.

If there's an identified need that can be solved by moving him, then fine. Sure we can use the cap space, and there are places on defense that could use some bolstering. But I don't get the "we have too many receivers" takes. When have we ever had too many quality receivers.
 

PRabbit

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Unless there's a clear upgrade at LB or CB with the cap space Aghohor frees up, I don't see a good reason to jet him elsewhere.
 

Saints Rest

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I think people are underestimating the Pats' cap situation. According to spotrac, they have about $1,151,000 in space today. But that is only factoring in the top 51. Once you get to Week 1, you need to account for EVERYONE, including IR and PS. Plus eventually you need to factor in roster-bonuses and things that tally up as the season progresses. Miguel typically says those things are about $5M, and that's after tallying the full count of all players. So Agholor's potential $10M in savings (less anything received back) actually is about the bare minimum of savings they have to find somehow. And if they were to cut him, it's less than $5M in savings.