Papi vs. Brady

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

One retirement down, one to go. Whose absence will you mourn more? Whose legacy will cast a longer shadow?

This is a Sox board, so maybe it's an unfair fight, but Brady is Brady. Should be an interesting debate.

I'll be honest: I don't know my answer yet, although I lean towards Papi. But due to the nature of baseball, I also have more faith in the Sox post-Papi than I do in the Pats post-Brady... the QB position has far more impact in football than any one player could have in baseball, regardless of how good he is.

 

[LaszloKovacks]

Remind me when Brady is retiring again?

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

Shut the fuck up, dink.

 

[LaszloKovacks]

Shut the fuck up, dink.

Let's talk about Brady retiring on the day we just watched Papi play his last game and cry on the mound in Fenway. Great idea.

And to answer your question, of course it will be a close call but I think it'll be rougher to see Brady go. He's dominating an era in which football is the new American pastime and is also pretty widely hated by the rest of the country. He is the embodiment of us vs them. Oh and he's the best player ever in his sport.

And he doesn't eat nightshades.

 

[Kliq]

Papi is one of the best hitters in Red Sox history; Brady is one of the best football players ever.

 

[I am an Idiot]

Brady, without a shred of a doubt. I love Papi. I love what he did for the Sox. But Brady is one of the greatest players to ever don any uniform, while Ortiz is one of the greatest players to don a particular uniform.

 

[Ale Xander]

Brady.

He's on the field a much higher percentage of the time, than Papi on the diamond.

Plus I don't remember Papi ever being suspended, but I could be wrong on that. And not for 1/4 of a regular season for sure.

But I'll probably miss BB more than both of them.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

Football is objectively stupid and is for losers.

Papi.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Papi for sure.
Brady will go down as one of the greatest players of all time. But Papi is way more than a player.

 

[PseuFighter]

Plus Papi was never suspended.

Wasn't he suspended for a game in 2015?

edit: and three games in 2004.

So, the same number of games as Brady.

 

[Bergs]

Papi. Red Sox have been exponentially more important to me over the course of my life than the Pats.

Edit: it dawns on me you asked two questions. My answer above is "mourn more"... In terms of "longer shadow" the answer is probably Brady. Barring disaster, he is going down as the greatest to ever play the most important position in major sports. That's a long shadow.

 

[steveluck7]

I went Brady in a close call. I called Ortiz "our Ted Williams" in the Ortiz thread but i lean Brady because he started it ALL when the Patriots beat the Rams (and the magic started in the Snow Bowl). That launched this unprecedented 15 year (and counting) run by Boston teams.

 

[soxfan121]

One retirement down, one to go. Whose absence will you mourn more? Whose legacy will cast a longer shadow?

David Ortiz was a tremendous player, a wonderful person, and a Red Sox icon. But he's not even the best hitter in franchise history, and he's not among the top 10 baseball players of all time. Is Ortiz's legacy going to cast a longer shadow than Pedro Martinez's? With all due respect to Ortiz, Pedro might be the best pitcher of all time. He ranks ahead of Ortiz in any shadow-size comparisons.

But Brady's legacy will cast an Olympus Mons or Jupiter sized shadow over his sport when he's done - exponentially bigger than either Ortiz or Pedro. Brady is going to be the unquestioned greatest player of all time in his sport by the time he's done.

 

[mikeford]

Ortiz.

Brady is an all-time great and is irreplaceable. But Ortiz did something for the franchise... for the city... for the entire New England region (not you Connecticut, FUCK YOU) that cannot be duplicated. 2004 means more than all 4 Super Bowls combined.

 

[steveluck7]

Can we just take a second to appreciate how fu**ing awesome it is that we are even able to have a "which legend is better" conversation about players on local teams playing at the same time

 

[SumnerH]

David Ortiz was a tremendous player, a wonderful person, and a Red Sox icon. But he's not even the best hitter in franchise history, and he's not among the top 10 baseball players of all time. Is Ortiz's legacy going to cast a longer shadow than Pedro Martinez's? With all due respect to Ortiz, Pedro might be the best pitcher of all time. He ranks ahead of Ortiz in any shadow-size comparisons.

But Brady's legacy will cast an Olympus Mons or Jupiter sized shadow over his sport when he's done - exponentially bigger than either Ortiz or Pedro. Brady is going to be the unquestioned greatest player of all time in his sport by the time he's done.

Yeah, but the importance of the Red Sox to Boston is exponentially greater than that of the Patriots. And that difference is likely to increase over time, when the BB/TB era comes to an end.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Ortiz.

Brady is an all-time great and is irreplaceable. But Ortiz did something for the franchise... for the city... for the entire New England region (not you Connecticut, FUCK YOU) that cannot be duplicated. 2004 means more than all 4 Super Bowls combined.

See this is why I cannot vote and I think tonight is too close to one event to even be objective about this topic. But what Brady did in 2001 was, to long-time Patriot fans, as big as what Ortiz did for the Sox in 2004. I cannot believe we even have to discuss this. How spoiled are we that we even get to discuss this?

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

This shouldn't be close. Papi.

 

[mikeford]

See this is why I cannot vote and I think tonight is too close to one event to even be objective about this topic. But what Brady did in 2001 was, to long-time Patriot fans, as big as what Ortiz did for the Sox in 2004. I cannot believe we even have to discuss this. How spoiled are we that we even get to discuss this?

I hear you, but nah. My great grandfather didnt go to his grave wishing he'd seen just 1 Patriots Super Bowl.

 

[Bergs]

I hear you, but nah. My great grandfather didnt go to his grave wishing he'd seen just 1 Patriots Super Bowl.

This. Neither did my grandfather or father.

Edit... Well, my dad did live to see the Pats win...but the point stands.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Tough question. Both guys eased their way in and then almost immediately started to create their legacies and became postseason legends very early on. I think I will give a slight advantage to Papi because he had to deal with a greater burden due to the Red Sox/Yankees dynamic. The only time Brady had to deal with anything even remotely similar to the 2004 angst was during the 2007 season. And that ended poorly.

 

[redsox3g2]

Papi. I'm not a Pats fan, they're my AFC team, but I'm trying to look at it objectively. I think the Pats with BB would have won a SB or 2. Not so sure without Papi. Also my family (who are fans of both) wasn't agonizing for lifetimes over the Pats finally winning a Super Bowl.

 

[pantsparty]

But Ortiz did something for the franchise... for the city... for the entire New England region (not you Connecticut, FUCK YOU)

Hey, it wasn't my fault all my idiot friends worshiped Jeter. My dad raised me right.

I think that while Brady is in the conversation for GOAT, Ortiz was part of fundamentally changing the outlook of the fanbase. When in 2003 Aaron Fucking Boone hit the walk-off, my thought was "whelp, it was about time for that to happen," when the Sox lost this year my thought was "wait... it's actually over?"

Or maybe I just don't care as much about football so the Patriots going from incompetent to perennial contenders didn't mean as much to me.

In terms of absolute skill, Brady > Ortiz. In terms of meaning to a franchise, Ortiz > Brady, I'd rank but not by a lot, and would be understanding of people who see it otherwise.

 

[Kliq]

Yeah, but the importance of the Red Sox to Boston is exponentially greater than that of the Patriots. And that difference is likely to increase over time, when the BB/TB era comes to an end.

You do realize that that is kind of an old argument that does not hold up that well anymore. The Patriots, with Brady, have arguably become the number one team in Boston and are at the very least equal to the Red Sox in popularity.

 

[LogansDad]

You do realize that that is kind of an old argument that does not hold up that well anymore. The Patriots, with Brady, have arguably become the number one team in Boston and are at the very least equal to the Red Sox in popularity.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point, but I also think that if both teams were to return to sucking (or even mediocrity) it would be the Patriots who the region first started not caring about.

I can't answer this question for anybody but myself, and I love Tom Brady. But for ME it is Papi, and I'm not even sure it is close. The Super Bowls (especially the first one, which really broke my sports fan cherry) have been awesome (and as a Michigan fan... don't ask, it's where my dad is from... my TB fandom goes beyond the Pats). But 2004 eclipses everything for me. 2007 was a cherry on top of the sundae. And 2013 was.... well, I don't even know outside of unexpected and Papi-fueled once the Cardinals stepped into the box.

Add to that his persona (both in Boston and internationally), and I really think that Papi leaves a hole (again, for me) that Brady can't come close to.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Brady.

Papi was great in postseason play, great in the clutch, and had indelible moments borne through his (as George Frazier used to say) his duende. He has been an emotionally inspirational presence.

But he had help. He didn't take every at-bat, drive in every run, or even have every big hit in postseason wins.

That's the separator for me with him and Brady. Brady had the ball every friggin' play. Brady led every comeback. And while there were substantial players around him, no one wrested the mantle of responsibility from his shoulders when he was on the field. To me, that has made him a more compelling figure to watch through his career.

I feel that connection more, and that's why it will resonate with me more when he retires.

And I wouldn't dare say anyone who chooses Big Papi is wrong.

 

[Marciano490]

Brady, just because there's more turnover in baseball. They can sign EE or trade for Votto or replace or approximate Ortiz' production a bunch of different ways. Getting a franchise much less an all-time QB without enduring an awful season and getting freakishly lucky is much more difficult.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Brady is the best football player of all time. Ortiz is the 2nd-best Red Sox hitter I've ever seen play on Saturday, May 6, 2006. But, "how f*@^%& spoiled are we?" is indeed the correct answer.


You can consider this all a write-in vote for Pedro.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

Interesting question. You're not really asking who is better or more important, but who we will "mourn" more.

For me, the first half of Ortiz's career kind of blends in with Manny's time here, as more of a two-headed monster. And while his ability in the clutch can't be denied, he hasn't done anything that Brady hasn't done in that department. With the final drives in 2001, 2003, and 2014, TB essentially won them three chips, just as Ortiz has (Eagles game was par for the course for TB). Of course, they both had help from other great players.

I wouldn't quibble with either vote. People's family connections with 2004 are the x-factor. Another is that we undoubtedly got to see more of Papi's personality than we have Brady's. But to me, Brady is Pedro in shoulder pads, if Pedro played 16+ years.

One last thing: the people saying that Boston is a baseball town are right. So what's amazing is that Brady has been able to elevate the Patriots to a level where we're even having this conversation.

 

[RoyHobbs]

You can consider this a write-in vote for Pedro.

I love Papi, as anyone in here does, but I echo the Pedro comments. His retirement depressed me. Papi's isn't depressing...I'm more happy that he gets to go out with the recent fanfare in his home ballpark than anything.

This is definitely a spoiled conversation because we've not mentioned the BBs, Pedroias, Gronks, or PPs of our time, whose retirements will "make it dusty" for the same reasons as Papi -- big performers and big personalities who transformed franchises and are yoked forever to Boston and the region.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Brady is a greater football player than Ortiz is a baseball player.

But Ortiz embraced this city (and region) and the city (and region) embraced him. New England has embraced Brady but it's not reciprocated and we're ok with that. Ortiz is a man, a man with failures (see his slumps). Brady is as close to perfection in a QB that we may ever see and we appreciate his immense skills but in the end it's much easier to mourn the loss of a man than it is to mourn the loss of a machine.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

It is impossible to express in language how profoundly I fail to give a rat's ass about football.

But even I know the answer to the "longest shadow" question is Brady.

For "mourn more," see paragraph 1.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I think it's obvious who is a better player, but Brady doesn't connect with the fanbase the whole Papi has. Papi is larger than the life. The Large Father. He's become a kind paternal figure for Boston. Brady is the Greatest Football Player of all time, but football season is short and happens out in the burbs. It doesn't have the connection to the city the way baseball does. It's a once a week event. Baseball becomes a part of the lifeblood of the city- Papi was at the heart of that for 13 years.
I'll miss Brady, absolutely... but I don't love him, and I don't feel the city and the region as a being in itself will miss him as much as Papi

 

[Curll]

Ortiz.

Brady is more hyped in Boston than Jeter was in NY. Let me guess, COUNT THA RINGZ

 

[rodderick]

Ortiz.

Brady is more hyped in Boston than Jeter was in NY. Let me guess, COUNT THA RINGZ

Brady is a lot more dominant in terms of stats and production as a QB than Jeter ever was as a shortstop. So no, it's not all about the rings.

This argument to me is similar to the Ortiz vs. Ted one. If you are talking about who the better player is, Brady is the clear choice. It's all about how you value the emotional connection Boston has with Ortiz, because Brady can't compete in that department. I vote Brady because he's had the Patriots in contention every season since 2001 with varying supporting casts, and it's impossible for a baseball player to have that kind of impact. Having Brady at QB is like having Pedro pitch every game in a season.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

As objectively great as Brady is (and Brady is a better QB than Oritz was a DH), would he -- or any other Boston athlete past or present, for that matter -- be capable of this:

 

[lexrageorge]

Ortiz.

Brady is more hyped in Boston than Jeter was in NY. Let me guess, COUNT THA RINGZ

It's not just about "tha ringz". Statistically, Brady is one of the most accomplished QB's in all of NFL history. And championships do actually matter. The idea of Brady being overhyped is one of the more ridiculous thoughts being thrown about in this forum.

Ortiz will probably get a statue at some point outside Fenway, sometime after he enters Cooperstown with just over 75% of the vote. Brady will not only get a statue outside Gillette, but will probably have an entire room dedicated to him in the Patriots Hall of Fame exhibit. And Brady's candidacy for Canton will be as close to a slam dunk as anyone.

Having said all that, I agree with the others that Ortiz has a special connection with the Boston fans that Brady will not be able to replicate. It's not Brady's fault, either. It's just the nature of both the individuals involved and the fan base.

 

[Seven Costanza]

I lean Brady pretty hard in this particular scenario precisely because Ortiz IS one of us.

Brady has reached myth-like status for me. He's going to go down as the best to ever play the game. And he's so goddamn reclusive about it- the weird association with Alex Guerrero, the avacado ice-cream, the fact that he's playing as well as he ever has at 39. His unrelenting need to constantly prove himself after proving it all already- hell, he probably will vote for Donald Trump and I don't give a shit.

Gods do not answer letters.

 

[mauf]

History matters.

My grandparents lived their entire adult lives as Red Sox fans and died without seeing them win the World Series. To the extent they cared about professional football, they rooted for the Giants.

Point, Papi.

 

[Foulkey Reese]

Football is fun, baseball is important. Ortiz and it's not even close.

 

[PBDWake]

For me it's probably going to be Brady, at least pending another ring. Part of it is the respective sports.

For me, baseball and Papi have kept him present during a much larger portion of my day to day life than Brady. I've fully felt the entire tenure of Papi's career arc with the Red Sox, and it feels like we've had our appropriate time together. I have hundreds and hundreds of games to reflect on, and it feels like it's been more than a decade with him. Furthermore, outside of 2003 (which was immediately erased in 2004, and again and again), I think that Papi's arc went about as high and well as it was going to. I think he peaked where he should have, and accomplished what he could have.

With Brady, however, the experience of Sunday football is the opposite for me. It doesn't feel like 2001 was that long ago for me. I don't have nearly as vast a reservoir of games to pull on, and he's not a part of my day to day life as much as Papi is. I feel like I blinked and Brady's career has gone by. I don't know why I think I should have spent more time watching him, I've seen every game he's played in a Pats uni. But some of the losses Brady took have stung more, and he's right on the very tip of being the undisputable GOAT. One more ring, that 19-0 season, some career records he might not get to... If Brady were to retire after this season without another ring, it'd hurt more because I'd feel like he was the GOAT, but a little frustrated that there was still room for people to argue. I know its kind of insane to feel like there was unfulfilled potential, but that rash of post-2004 receivers, the lost draft picks, everything along the way would stick with me, like I felt we let down his career a little.

 

[rembrat]

Football is fun, baseball is important. Ortiz and it's not even close.

Wow this. And Baseball will still be around in 100 years.

 

[RIFan]

I don't think there is a wrong answer here because there so many deeply personal reasons to feel the way you do. Personally, Brady will be the bigger loss. The odds are that another Ortiz will come our way long before we see another Brady.

 

[moondog80]

Brady is #1 on the Boston athlete list. Ortiz enters the mix after Brady, Russell, Bird, Williams, and Orr.

 

[H78]

It's Tom Brady and it's not even close. I'm shocked that Ortiz is winning this poll and I think that's in large part because of his retirement being so fresh on everyone's mind.

FWIW, to me, David Ortiz it the second best Red Sox player of my lifetime, because I think Pedro Martinez is 1B (Ted Williams being 1A, of course) when it comes to greatest Red Sox player of all time.

Tom Brady, as someone else mentioned, is going to receive a lot of consideration as the greatest football player of all time, period.

I love Papi as much as anyone else here, but Tom Brady is truly on the Mount Rushmore of his sport, whereas David Ortiz is not.

 

[curly2]

Football is fun, baseball is important. Ortiz and it's not even close.

Amen to this.

 

[riveraulwick]

If the poll was Pedro vs. Papi what would the result be? No disrespect to Ortiz but one could easily argue he wouldn't win a poll against another player he played with on the same team.

The fact that Brady stands so alone on the team (and in the sport) speaks volumes.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I hear you, but nah. My great grandfather didnt go to his grave wishing he'd seen just 1 Patriots Super Bowl.

Kind of apples and oranges, isn't it? The Red Sox were playing for all of your great grandfather's life. The Patriots started playing in 1960. But, you know what his favorite sport and team were. I don't.

 

[DanoooME]

It's Tom Brady and it's not even close. I'm shocked that Ortiz is winning this poll and I think that's in large part because of his retirement being so fresh on everyone's mind.

Maybe, but there are two other intertwined reasons:

1. It's a Red Sox board, almost everyone here is purely a Sox fan
2. There are a lot of Sox fans here that aren't Patriots fans and while many respect Brady's ability and career, they don't love him because they aren't Pats fans.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Brady is a demi-god and I love that he's Tom Brady and that he's our Tom Brady. But Papi is something completely different. I can't really put it into words, but those four October nights in 2004 put him on a level that's unreachable (at least for me). I root for the Pats (and the Celts and the B's) but I root-root-root for the home team and for me that's the Red Sox.

Boston players came and went from 2003 through 2016, but there was one constant: David Ortiz*. Despite a few down years, these 14 seasons are the greatest Red Sox years of my life. And Ortiz led the charge in every, single year. Sometimes he had Manny riding shotgun, other times Jason Bay or Dustin Pedroia or Hanley or Nomar or whomever; but the dude that really put this shit together is David Ortiz.

* And yes, I know that you can say the same thing for Tom Brady (2001-present) but there's also another person who might have a bit more to say about the success of the New England Patriots: Bill Belichick. If you ask me who I'm going to be more sad to see go: Belichick or Ortiz, then there might be a Sophie's Choice here. And that's not to say that Tom Brady is a system quarterback or any of that garbage. It's just that like Auerbach (and Bobby Valentine, of course), Belichick has a way of putting the right players in the right positions to succeed.

Baseball is a little different.