Olympic Swimming

Ale Xander

Lacks black ink
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
40,881
The US coach that devised this order should be fired. Partly with Dressels last 2 races, but mostly between the differences in times with the genders.
 

The Napkin

wise ass al kaprielian
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2002
24,886
right here
McKeon sets an Olympic Record and all Rowdy wants to talk about is Weitzel.
I liked:
"How much of a lead do they need here?"
"It's not the lead it's the time. It matters how much of a time lead they have"
I am now dumber for hearing that
 

Mr. Wednesday

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2007
1,348
Eastern MA
The US coach that devised this order should be fired.
Yup. I have a hard time believing that was the optimal combination of splits. It might actually be fun to try running an optimization on it. There's software to do it, it's not rocket surgery.
 

AB in DC

OG Football Writing
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2002
8,609
Springfield, VA
The US coach that devised this order should be fired. Partly with Dressels last 2 races, but mostly between the differences in times with the genders.
Seriously. I need to look at this again but I always thought that butterfly is where there was the biggest M-F differential and freestyle the least. And yet they had a F butterflyer and a M freestyler.
 

Pitt the Elder

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 7, 2013
2,709
The US coach that devised this order should be fired. Partly with Dressels last 2 races, but mostly between the differences in times with the genders.
Yup. I'm beyond angry right now. Remember all those things I said the coaches should do in constructing the relay? They pretty much did the opposite.

You do NOT put a woman on the breaststroke leg.

You do NOT put a man on the freestyle leg

Those 4 swimmers actually had pretty decent swims, even Jacoby with her goggles off. But there was literally no mathematical way for them to win that race. None.

This result was seen by a mile away by everyone in the swimming community. At minimum, the coaches need to be in front of microphones and answer questions.

Edit:. At worst, they should be shot out of a fucking cannon
 
Last edited:

Mr. Wednesday

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2007
1,348
Eastern MA
Seriously. I need to look at this again but I always thought that butterfly is where there was the biggest M-F differential and freestyle the least. And yet they had a F butterflyer and a M freestyler.
I haven't gotten to free yet, but it's a consistent 6s M/F difference in splits in elimination rounds for fly, breast, and back. But in fly, that 6s is from Dressel to Huske; it's under 4s from Tom Shields to Huske.
 

Mr. Wednesday

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2007
1,348
Eastern MA
Y'know, as I'm digging into this, I'm not sure the U.S. had the horses. Strategy-wise, they didn't have anybody on the F side do much of anything (compared with the medalists) in the 100 free this games. Weitzeil finished 8th in the final and was over a second slower than McKeon, and four tenths slower than Hopkin who finished 7th (plus she had the 50 free semi literally six minutes earlier, though the same turnaround didn't stop McKeon from turning a 51.73 split in the anchor for AUS).

I can see the logic to the lineup that was chosen. Biggest argument against would be penalty to Huske's split from swimming behind the men. Not sure how much of her ~0.5s fall-off from the individual final comes down to that, vs. just having a poor swim. Murphy was just about dead on his individual final split, as were Dressel and Jacoby, but for the latter two, I'd call that somewhat slow because of faster reaction time in a relay hand-off (she has the excuse of wretched luck with the goggles).
 
Last edited:

Pitt the Elder

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 7, 2013
2,709
Y'know, as I'm digging into this, I'm not sure the U.S. had the horses. Strategy-wise, they didn't have anybody on the F side do much of anything (compared with the medalists) in the 100 free this games. Weitzeil finished 8th in the final and was over a second slower than McKeon, and four tenths slower than Hopkin who finished 7th (plus she had the 50 free semi literally six minutes earlier, though the same turnaround didn't stop McKeon from turning a 51.73 split in the anchor for AUS).

I can see the logic to the lineup that was chosen. Biggest argument against would be penalty to Huske's split from swimming behind the men. Not sure how much of her ~0.5s fall-off from the individual final comes down to that, vs. just having a poor swim. Murphy was just about dead on his individual final split, as were Dressel and Jacoby, but for the latter two, I'd call that somewhat slow because of faster reaction time in a relay hand-off (she has the excuse of wretched luck with the goggles).
Weitzel swimming the 50 a few minutes before is something to think about it but a lot of other swimmers faced the same issue and handled it pretty well. McKeon split 51.7, for example. All things considered, the 50 free really doesn't take a lot out of you

This tweet outlines the 5 best relay combos for the US on paper. To be unmodest, the one I suggested is the fastest. The one the US coaches went with doesn't make the list...

View: https://twitter.com/insightlane/status/1421274993153904640?s=19
 

Mr. Wednesday

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2007
1,348
Eastern MA
Yup. I'm beyond angry right now. Remember all those things I said the coaches should do in constructing the relay? They pretty much did the opposite.

You do NOT put a woman on the breaststroke leg.

You do NOT put a man on the freestyle leg
Do you know what the impact (at this level) of sub-optimal ordering is on swimmers' split times? The biggest slow point for the U.S. was Huske on the fly, did she lose 0.5s to pool conditions, or is that mostly just an iffy swim?

(Edit - for some of my own research: AUS's Matthew Temple, swimming after a F/M combo in front, split 50.26, which is pretty clearly a better swim than the individual final. NED's Nyls Korstanje split 51.34, which is probably about on his result from his semifinal. ISR's Gal Groumi Cohen split 51.58 (didn't swim prelims, but Tomer Frankel split 51.99 in his prelim. So for men having to cut through the aftermath of M/M opens, it didn't affect their swim, but that's obviously not dispositive.)

This tweet outlines the 5 best relay combos for the US on paper. To be unmodest, the one I suggested is the fastest. The one the US coaches went with doesn't make the list...
That's interesting... there were some faster splits in prelims than the elimination swims for the tweet, because I had some of the same combos ~1s slower. For the splits I used, the fastest combo from the tweet is about 0.3s faster than the group that actually swam.
 
Last edited:

Ale Xander

Lacks black ink
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
40,881
US qualified for the M 4x100 Medley final in SEVENTH. I don’t believe they have ever not take the gold that race in the Olympics but I could be wrong
 

djbayko

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
16,219
Los Angeles, CA
I said the same thing to my wife. I don’t think he picked his head up and he didn’t even seem out of breath at the end. Crazy.
I don't know swimming very well, but this seems to make logical sense for short distances. Oxygenate your body like a free diver does and focus on technique and "aerodynamics" (or whatever it would be called in water).
 

fiskful of dollars

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
2,166
Charlottesville, VA
I don't know swimming very well, but this seems to make logical sense for short distances. Oxygenate your body like a free diver does and focus on technique and "aerodynamics" (or whatever it would be called in water).
I don't think 50M sprinters breathe much, max 1-2 times. Some don't breathe at all.
 

SoxJox

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2003
4,542
Rock > SoxJox < Hard Place
I don't get that event at all.
I think it's the difference between looking at the physical distance between the leading and trailing swimmer, vs. the speed at which each is swimming. With the latter, you can calculate how much time the trailing swimmer has before catching the leader, assuming the trailing swimmer is swimming faster than the leader.
 

Pitt the Elder

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 7, 2013
2,709
I don't know swimming very well, but this seems to make logical sense for short distances. Oxygenate your body like a free diver does and focus on technique and "aerodynamics" (or whatever it would be called in water).
I don't think 50M sprinters breathe much, max 1-2 times. Some don't breathe at all.
It's definitely doable to sprint a 50 without breathing and I've done it more than a few times. I haven't checked the science on this in a while, but the general idea is that your body doesn't use the oxygen you breath in until after the race is over so you might as well not break your stroke for a breath. The hardest thing is resisting the urge to breath because your body certainly thinks you should as the CO2 starts building up.

A lot of swimmers and coaches do hypoxic breath control training to help swimmers do this, as well as not breathing into and out of walls, but it can be really dangerous, with many swimmers passing out under water and even dying. It's something that can only be done with strict supervision and never, ever should swimmers see how far they can go without breathing. I've done this myself with a friend in highschool (I made it like 60 yards) and he nearly blacked out trying to go a full 100 yards (he made it about 90). This was all under coaching supervision but still really stupid.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
21,580

Ale Xander

Lacks black ink
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
40,881
Not sure if I’ve been impressed more with Dressel or Finke or the Aussie women.
 

Ale Xander

Lacks black ink
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
40,881
US women’s swimming has a great future with those 3 teenagers and Graves and the others
 

Pitt the Elder

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 7, 2013
2,709
Two emails I sent to my swim friends after the 2 medley relays:

Cumulative relay exchanges on the women's 400 MRR:

AUS - 0.40
USA - 1.05

Coaches should show videos of this race to their swimmers and ask "Would you rather get silver by a tenth or win gold by a half second? WORK YOUR FUCKING STARTS"

And the men's 400 MRR:

Cumulative relay exchanges:

GBR - 0.75
USA - 0.45

That's how you fucking debate.
 

Mr. Wednesday

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2007
1,348
Eastern MA
Gotta say based on the relays tonight, they should have run Dressel in fly and Weitzeil in free last night

Or Smith in back / Andrew in breast / Dressel in fly / Weitzeil in free...

But hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure the coaches are kicking themselves for it.
 

Ale Xander

Lacks black ink
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
40,881
What do they put in the water in the North Baltimore pool? Jessica Long putting up a career Phelpsian performance in the Paraolympics. Up to 27 medals now.