Olbermann's Jeter Biography

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Hendu for Kutch

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Scott Cooper said:
And I remember our shortstop sulking on the bench.
 
Well, I guess THAT makes it a diving catch then.
 

 
If he'd slid instead of stumbled, nobody would remember that play.  Instead he is deified for losing body control.
 
Look, it's a nice catch.  No doubt.  You could even say it's a great one and I wouldn't argue with you.  But as others have said, it wasn't even the best catch of that game by a SS.  Which is tied in with the reason KO is ranting about Jeter and everyone here is eating it up.  Not because we have a problem with Jeter, but because we have a problem with the deification of Jeter by fans and media.  Facts be damned, he's a calm-eyed saint who is the winneriest winner who ever won and has never done anything wrong in his life.
 
That play has been shown a thousand times and is always referred to as a diving catch, just as you did, despite the fact that it's not and never was.  It's such a perfect example of the phenomenon.  Great job by Jeter, lots of respect there, but fans and media had to run with it and try and make it more than it was.
 
And, of course, know your audience.  There may be a slight hint of anti-Yankees sentiment here.
 

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Hendu for Kutch said:
Which is tied in with the reason KO is ranting about Jeter and everyone here is eating it up.  Not because we have a problem with Jeter, but because we have a problem with the deification of Jeter by fans and media.
He's the baseball equivalent of a Kennedy. Of course he is overhyped and has flaws. It isn't about him personally, but what he represents to fans, many of whom don't even follow the game very closely. Or at least closely enough to recognize those flaws.

A lot of people really, really like the idea of Jeter. Many of them are in the media. He gave them something to talk about. It's annoying, and has been for a long time. But at least for me, the bitterness over how things ended won't linger very long once he's gone. He's still a great player. Still seems like a good guy. I don't need him to be the "bestest evah" to be enjoy his career and be a fan.
 

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And that's totally fair.  I'm not bitter and I don't hate the guy or anything, but it gets eye-rolling at times.  If I had a platform, I'd have a hard time not doing what KO did.
 

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The Olbermann stuff made my day as much as anyone's and I realize he was trolling a bit, but some of his arguments are kind of silly.
He took the "big 8" categories but didn't emphasize that Jeter was 1st in WAR 4 times on his team, and finished 2nd to A-Rod 4 times, one of the big poster children for the PED era.  He also mentioned Tejada and A-Rod as shortstops who won the MVP over that time period.  Tejada, also a big PED user.
 
The championship stuff is silly too.  He's only won 1 in the past 15 years even though he won 4 before that?  That would not sit well with Brady lovers and his championship history.  How about just talking about his overall post season performance and not worrying about the other stuff.
 
If you want to criticize him, use the A-Rod/Jeter left side of the infield debacle.  There is at least some meat there.
 

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I just keep going back to the conversation I had with the former player personnel guy, who told me that Jeter barely spoke to ARod while they were teammates due to a stupid comment ARod made after the trade.  The guy who was clearly the best player on the team for years, who Jeter wouldn't have won a 5th ring without, was persona non grata as far as Jeter was concerned.
 
And before anyone says, well Jeter knew he was cheating and didn't want to be associated with him, did Derek also ostracize Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, Knoblauch and the rest of the other cheaters on the Yankees?
 

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I just keep going back to the conversation I had with the former player personnel guy, who told me that Jeter barely spoke to ARod while they were teammates due to a stupid comment ARod made after the trade.  The guy who was clearly the best player on the team for years, who Jeter wouldn't have won a 5th ring without, was persona non grata as far as Jeter was concerned.
 
And before anyone says, well Jeter knew he was cheating and didn't want to be associated with him, did Derek also ostracize Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, Knoblauch and the rest of the other cheaters on the Yankees?
He knew ARod was an asshole.
 

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As opposed to boy scout Clemens?  Come on.  The issue with ARod was that ARod should've been the SS and Jeter was pissed that ARod even brought it up.  It was 100% personal.
 

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Did anyone on that team like ARod? Torre certainly held him in contempt, and in general nobody seemed particularly eager to embrace him as anything more than a hired gun. Whether that says more about Yankee ego or Arod's profound lack of personal charm or redeeming character traits is hard to say.
 

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grimshaw said:
The championship stuff is silly too.  He's only won 1 in the past 15 years even though he won 4 before that?  That would not sit well with Brady lovers and his championship history.  How about just talking about his overall post season performance and not worrying about the other stuff.
Right, but you need the context.  This is specifically a response to the argument that Jeter's leadership as captain produced value above and beyond his stats.  That they won 1 title in 12 years while he was captain, given what they were spending, pokes a giant hole in this argument.
 

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NatetheGreat said:
Did anyone on that team like ARod? Torre certainly held him in contempt, and in general nobody seemed particularly eager to embrace him as anything more than a hired gun. Whether that says more about Yankee ego or Arod's profound lack of personal charm or redeeming character traits is hard to say.
 
 
That isn't the point.  The point, which was discussed a few months ago in a different thread, is that Jeter the leader shunned the best player on his team due to personal issues.  People can handle situations like that however they want.  But I don't want to hear about what a great leader he was when his actions did nothing to put out the fire.  People talk about how Jeter has 5 rings.  One of those is thanks to ARod.  So Jeter gets credit for his thumb ring, but gets a free pass on how poorly he dealt with ARod for over a decade.
 
Put it this way.  How would we feel if Tek contributed to Manny being an outcast?
 

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finnVT said:
Right, but you need the context.  This is specifically a response to the argument that Jeter's leadership as captain produced value above and beyond his stats.  That they won 1 title in 12 years while he was captain, given what they were spending, pokes a giant hole in this argument.
Ya - this is true.  In which case . . .Varitek was a better captain.  So take that, Jeter lovers!
 

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glennhoffmania said:
 
That isn't the point.  The point, which was discussed a few months ago in a different thread, is that Jeter the leader shunned the best player on his team due to personal issues.  People can handle situations like that however they want.  But I don't want to hear about what a great leader he was when his actions did nothing to put out the fire.  People talk about how Jeter has 5 rings.  One of those is thanks to ARod.  So Jeter gets credit for his thumb ring, but gets a free pass on how poorly he dealt with ARod for over a decade.
 
Put it this way.  How would we feel if Tek contributed to Manny being an outcast?
 
There are more than two people in the clubhouse. Considering what we know about the parties involved, it doesn't take much imagination to see how "leadership" could mean setting boundaries with the guy in the presence of the remainder of the team you're supposedly good at leading. Big caveat here I know, but that would require you to try and see the situation objectively.
 

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Right, but you need the context.  This is specifically a response to the argument that Jeter's leadership as captain produced value above and beyond his stats.  That they won 1 title in 12 years while he was captain, given what they were spending, pokes a giant hole in this argument.
Who makes that specific argument? It's dumb for a lot of reasons. The biggest one in my mind is that a being anointed captain didn't make him a leader. Jeter either was or wasn't a leader on that team long before ever being designated so. Only his teammates and peers really know.

I was an Army officer. Led troops in combat. Accomplished all my missions and brought all my troops home. By many standards, I was a good leader. But you know what? I did my job as best as I could, but I had two NCOs under me that were far better leaders than I ever was. Not even close, really. And I'm not even remotely ashamed to admit it. They are good men. But I don't know how many people outside my unit could discern that. To do that, they'd have had to been with us, day in, day out.

I think it is impossible for fans or critics to evaluate what kind of leadership Jeter provided. There are many different ways to lead. All I have to go with is how his teammates and peers treat him. He seemed to be a pretty good one. I guess we'll see when/if the definitive biography ever gets written, assuming it is sourced well enough.
 

NatetheGreat

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glennhoffmania said:
 
That isn't the point.  The point, which was discussed a few months ago in a different thread, is that Jeter the leader shunned the best player on his team due to personal issues.  People can handle situations like that however they want.  But I don't want to hear about what a great leader he was when his actions did nothing to put out the fire.  People talk about how Jeter has 5 rings.  One of those is thanks to ARod.  So Jeter gets credit for his thumb ring, but gets a free pass on how poorly he dealt with ARod for over a decade.
 
Put it this way.  How would we feel if Tek contributed to Manny being an outcast?
 
Selfishly, I have a hard time holding mistreatment of ARod against anyone. If being a good leader means being nice to Alex Rodriguez, I wouldn't want to be a good leader.
 

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EvilEmpire said:
I think it is impossible for fans or critics to evaluate what kind of leadership Jeter provided. There are many different ways to lead. All I have to go with is how his teammates and peers treat him. He seemed to be a pretty good one. I guess we'll see when/if the definitive biography ever gets written, assuming it is sourced well enough.
Well said. When we deride people talking about intangibles, this is the exact reason--we really just can't know both how true/ false the label is and how much it actually has a material effect. Yes it's stupid to repeatedly shout that his value in intangibles is off the charts because the person saying it doesn't know, and because you can't discuss it--no one does. It seems obvious to me then that to argue the opposite--not just that it is largely a completely empty sentiment, but that he actually DOESN'T have these intangibles they say he has--is just as dumb and pointless and logically circular.
 

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EvilEmpire said:
Who makes that specific argument? It's dumb for a lot of reasons. The biggest one in my mind is that a being anointed captain didn't make him a leader. Jeter either was or wasn't a leader on that team long before ever being designated so. Only his teammates and peers really know.
Fair enough that he may well have been a leader prior to becoming captain, but (1) those teams had many other long-tenured vets so it's hard to imagine a rookie/early career guy supplanting them, and (2) becoming captain seems to be a codification of his leadership role, so it makes sense to look at that time period.  As for who makes that argument, you don't think people go crazy about Jeter's leadership abilities?  I mean, fortune ranked him as the 11th greatest leader IN THE WORLD.  I think KO's response on this point is kind of just a backlash against that sort of over-the-top fawning.
 

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My whole point about the Olbermann piece is what is the point?  why does he seem as angry about this as the Ray Rice/Roger Goodell incidents?  I'm just saying that as a person, I've never heard Jeter speak of himself as the best Yankee, the best SS, or the best player in the history of the game.  If the media puts that out there that's their problem so why do a piece like this to prove who Jeter is not?  What is he really doing?
 
Jeter played 20 years won a bunch of things, got a lot of hits and was better and more impressive than a lot of other players during the same time frame. 
 
Last thing....when they talk about his "value" can't it be said that his "value" is his ability to put fannies in the seats.  Was there another reason to go to games in the Bronx recently?  Chase Headley?  Stephen Drew?  Brandon McCarthy?
 

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As for who makes that argument, you don't think people go crazy about Jeter's leadership abilities?
I know there is tons of hyperbole (both pro and con), but I was referring specifically to the idea that the performance on the field of the team was causally related to his leadership.
 

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Scott Cooper said:
My whole point about the Olbermann piece is what is the point?  why does he seem as angry about this as the Ray Rice/Roger Goodell incidents?  I'm just saying that as a person, I've never heard Jeter speak of himself as the best Yankee, the best SS, or the best player in the history of the game.  If the media puts that out there that's their problem so why do a piece like this to prove who Jeter is not?  What is he really doing?
 
You don't hear Jeter garbage from casual fans nearly every day?
 
I do. It gets real fucking old, and you can't so much as even hint at the fact that "you know, he wasn't all that great defensively," without getting blasted in the face with HE'S CLASSY, LEADER OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND RIGHT, CAL RIPKEN CAN'T EVEN HOLD THE CAPTAIN'S JOCK and that bullshit is what Olbermann is attacking, not Jeter himself personally (although he does get into that a bit with the refusal to take himself out or move off SS.)
 

NatetheGreat

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I thought Olbermann made some good points, but his strange outrage that Jeter might play his final games at Fenway struck me as a little odd. The team is done regardless, and I'm betting there will be more fans in attendance at that final game who hope he makes an appearance than not--is giving them what they want some grand sin? And would ending his season slightly early so he can go out "on top" after his big moment in New York somehow be more humble? Even within the context of reacting to all the absurd hype, that specific complaint seemed silly.
 

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Scott Cooper said:
My whole point about the Olbermann piece is what is the point?  why does he seem as angry about this as the Ray Rice/Roger Goodell incidents?
 

He didn't seem angry at all to me. He had a smile/smirk on his face for a lot of it.
 

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You hear a lot of ballwashing about Yadier Molina these days as well since he's been on a few (really stacked) Cardinals World Series winners.  Not too many of us regionally care about it, but I'm sure it bugs other NL central teams (Lucroy has been demonstrably better this year and should have started the NL all-star game and Pirates fans believe Russell Martin was an MVP candidate that led them to the playoffs last year).
 
Varitek was revered for his leadership with the Red Sox.  Not just by the team but on national broadcasts and by opposing teams.  Yet he was on the team that fell apart the year before he retired and not on the team that won the World Series with Salty. 
 
Intangibles/captain bullshit is just that.  If you're continuously winning it seems to be common practice to annoint someone.
 

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He didn't seem angry at all to me. He had a smile/smirk on his face for a lot of it.
Yeah. The guy is an entertainer. He recognized the pendulum had swung all the way to "beatification" and relished the opportunity to push it as hard as he could the other way. He was having fun. It was fun. It was a great bit.
 

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Chris Russo was on with D&C and talked about the Olbermann bits,  citing that it was more to distract from the NFL stuff and finding something to have fun with mid-week.  Though Russo did argue Olbermann's points.  One of them was not being able to remember a play that Jeter messed up during his playoff career.  That argument probably doesn't help anyone's case, though he hates the Yankees.
 

NatetheGreat

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grimshaw said:
You hear a lot of ballwashing about Yadier Molina these days as well since he's been on a few (really stacked) Cardinals World Series winners.  Not too many of us regionally care about it, but I'm sure it bugs other NL central teams (Lucroy has been demonstrably better this year and should have started the NL all-star game and Pirates fans believe Russell Martin was an MVP candidate that led them to the playoffs last year).
 
Varitek was revered for his leadership with the Red Sox.  Not just by the team but on national broadcasts and by opposing teams.  Yet he was on the team that fell apart the year before he retired and not on the team that won the World Series with Salty. 
 
Intangibles/captain bullshit is just that.  If you're continuously winning it seems to be common practice to annoint someone.
 
Well, in real life most of us have experience working on teams whose performance was helped by good leadership or hindered by bad leadership (or a lack of any leadership at all). Quantifying the exact impact can be tricky, but I do think its something most of us have experienced at some point. In most areas of life, insisting that leadership has no bearing on a team's performance or results seems fairly silly, and there's no intuitive reason to think baseball would be some grand exception.
 
OTOH, knowing who to credit/blame, and to what extent, is incredibly tricky, and without actually being in that locker room there's no real way for outsiders in the media or fandom at large to draw conclusions with any kind of accuracy. So people settle on the captain, or a well-respected vet, or the guy other players point to in interviews. Which isn't a particularly effective way of figuring out who is a good leader, let alone determining the actual impact of that leadership on team performance.
 
Its sort of like attributing a bad at bat in a big moment to nerves. Yes, all of us have experienced, and have known other people who've experienced, the feeling of nervousness undermining performance. It is a near certainty that at some point in baseball history there has been at least one at bat that went worse than it otherwise would have because the hitter got spooked. But there have also been a ton of at bats in big moments that have ended in failure not because of nerves, but because most at-bats end in failure. Determining the actual cause of any given at bat ending in an out is all but impossible unless you happen to be that player's personal shrink. 
 
Just because something can't be measured easily doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it does make discussing it in a useful way all but impossible.
 

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grimshaw said:
 
I
 

"Its sort of like attributing a bad at bat in a big moment to nerves. Yes, all of us have experienced, and have known other people who've experienced, the feeling of nervousness undermining performance. It is a near certainty that at some point in baseball history there has been at least one at bat that went worse than it otherwise would have because the hitter got spooked. But there have also been a ton of at bats in big moments that have ended in failure not because of nerves, but because most at-bats end in failure. Determining the actual cause of any given at bat ending in an out is all but impossible unless you happen to be that player's personal shrink. 
 
Just because something can't be measured easily doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it does make discussing it in a useful way all but impossible."

 
 
I don't mind discussing what intangibles could often mean, I just don't like hearing about them from uninformed sources or without actual examples of what he specifically did.  A few examples of intangibles I can think of:
 
-Stealing signs.  Harold Reynolds (of all people) communicated that he worked with the guys who batted after him about whether they wanted locations and pitches given away and explained the system.  Mark Delarosa was sitting next to him and said he never did that.
-I remember the first few months Adrian Gonzalez was around, he was helping lefties go the other way and it was noticeable to the naked eye.
-Pitchers helping each other improve movement
-Curt Schilling and writing down everything batters did with his own notes.  Maddux and his photographic memory.
-Veteran catchers discussing to their new team how pitchers work to them
-Pitch framing used to be intangible before it started becoming measured, though I'm sure pitchers noticed who could get them more strikes
 
But do they go away one year and come back stronger the next?  Can you have an off year with intangibles?
 
I don't hear what Jeter actually does, just that he has them.
 
 

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Scott Cooper said:
My whole point about the Olbermann piece is what is the point?  why does he seem as angry about this as the Ray Rice/Roger Goodell incidents?  I'm just saying that as a person, I've never heard Jeter speak of himself as the best Yankee, the best SS, or the best player in the history of the game.  If the media puts that out there that's their problem so why do a piece like this to prove who Jeter is not?  What is he really doing?
 
Jeter played 20 years won a bunch of things, got a lot of hits and was better and more impressive than a lot of other players during the same time frame. 
 
Last thing....when they talk about his "value" can't it be said that his "value" is his ability to put fannies in the seats.  Was there another reason to go to games in the Bronx recently?  Chase Headley?  Stephen Drew?  Brandon McCarthy?
 
Olbermann is a legitimate fan of baseball history, particularly Yankee baseball history.  His underlying point is that the deification of Jeter by the under-40 fans and media, slights many of the Yankee greats from the past.  In a couple of years, David Ortiz will retire with 500+ Hrs, and close to 2500 hits and 1600 RBI PLUS at least 3 World Championships.  Twits like Felger will point to Ortiz as the greatest Red Sox ever, since that's all he knows, and he'll find a lot of support from the under 40 crwod.  But  I'll bet that the overwhelming majority of this posters on this board will still side with Ted Williams as the greatest by far, even though Ortiz was a far more significant player than Jeter and the Sox ancient history is beyond pathetic compared to the Yankee past.
 
I hold no ill will toward Jeter.  If anything, I'm envious.  He arrived in NY at the right time, and as a SS on the Yankees he was automatically included into the "1990s SS club" with Ripken, ARod, Tejada and Nomar.  By the time the Yankees' latest dynasty had passed he and Mo were what was left and became the poster boy, got a monster contract and had earned the right to play as long as he could take the field.  But I always felt Jeter knew that he, not Gehrig, was the luckiest man on the face of the earth.  He was a good player who will go down in baseball history as a great player.  He kept his nose clean, played the media game perfectly and always did his best to get the most out of his talent.  What I'll remember most about him is an at bat, during the height of the Yankee-Sox animosity, when Jeter got hit on the wrist by Pedro (intentionally, I'm sure, as Pedro did the same to Williams a few pitches later), and Jeter not saying a word and just taking his base.  He could have made it all about him, and how Pedro was showing no respect to HIM, Derek F'ckin Jeter of the Yankees, but he just took his base.  If anyone gets to be the luckiest man on the face of the earth, it might as well be Jeter.
 

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Hendu for Kutch said:
Well, I guess THAT makes it a diving catch then.
 

 
If he'd slid instead of stumbled, nobody would remember that play.  Instead he is deified for losing body control.
 
Look, it's a nice catch.  No doubt.  You could even say it's a great one and I wouldn't argue with you.  But as others have said, it wasn't even the best catch of that game by a SS.  Which is tied in with the reason KO is ranting about Jeter and everyone here is eating it up.  Not because we have a problem with Jeter, but because we have a problem with the deification of Jeter by fans and media.  Facts be damned, he's a calm-eyed saint who is the winneriest winner who ever won and has never done anything wrong in his life.
 
That play has been shown a thousand times and is always referred to as a diving catch, just as you did, despite the fact that it's not and never was.  It's such a perfect example of the phenomenon.  Great job by Jeter, lots of respect there, but fans and media had to run with it and try and make it more than it was.
 
Any chance you can email this still frame and the awesome commentary to Olbermann's producers? Because this is the quintessential case of Jeter's place in history being trumped to heights far exceeding reality.
 

DJnVa

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Anyone have link to the Pokey catch?
 
I mean, Jeter caught a fair ball and then tumbled into stands. Great play, but come on.
 
 

jayhoz

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Start at the 2 minute mark.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MljCO2Dp2g&sns=tw
 

DJnVa

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jayhoz said:
Start at the 2 minute mark.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MljCO2Dp2g&sns=tw
 
I WILL WATCH ALL OF IT KIND SIR!!!
 

 
 

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You're all right....Jeter sucked....I don't know what I was thinking.  Carry on.
 

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DrewDawg said:
Anyone have link to the Pokey catch?
 
I mean, Jeter caught a fair ball and then tumbled into stands. Great play, but come on.
 
 
Is it possible that that is the play that started 'earning' him Gold Gloves?
 

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threecy said:
 
Is it possible that that is the play that started 'earning' him Gold Gloves?
 
Perhaps.  That and the winner from the previous two years being moved to 3B to accommodate Jete's defensive wizardry.
 

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Is it possible that that is the play that started 'earning' him Gold Gloves?
 
Possible? It's absolutely the play that got him his first gold glove, despite the fact his range had sucked for years.
 
When I first got into sabermetrics I remember reading people trashing Jeter's defense (MGL's UZR hated, hated, hated Jeter). I couldn't believe it - jump throw Jeter? But he's a great shortstop! Then I watched the 2002 ALDS vs. the Angels and watching a ground ball from an Angel dribble through the infield to the left of the second base bag and seeing Jeter nowhere near the ball. He looked like he was running towards it with cement cleats. Nomar, who was nobody's idea of a Gold Glover, would have got to the ball easily. It was revelatory.
 

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Scott Cooper said:
You're all right....Jeter sucked....I don't know what I was thinking.  Carry on.
 
If you're ending an argument with a fake surrender to an idea that nobody has even remotely suggested is the case, that's a pretty clear indicator you're not bothering to read or understand what anyone else is saying.
 

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My original point was that I thought Olbermann's piece on Jeter was kind of mean spirited and unwarranted.  The same sorts of rants that I've liked of his in the past on Goodell, Adrien Peterson, etc I found to be off base.  I mentioned Jeter's style of play and one in particular.  
 
The thread then turned into proving that one play wasn't all that great and that Pokey's was better.
 
My whole point was here is a dude who played hard for 20 years had a pretty stellar career and was a solid competitor.  
 
I'm not taking my ball and going home, the thread just seemed to turn into a "oh Jeter's not that great" and "I'm sick of hearing about Jeter" More of a P&G slant....so there really isn't anything to debate.
 
It's all good.