OK so its 2020 and the glass is half Empty. Lets say....Tatum never takes the (next) leap.

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,199
Lynn
Here is where Tatum ranks on the most recent best player lists.

ESPN-11th
CBS- 11th
Bleacher Report- 11th
Nba.com- 10th
SI- 13th (before the bubble)

The general board on realgm does a best player thread, and Tatum was voted 12th. Whether by nba media or neutral fans, he is considered a top 15 player pretty much across the board, and rising quickly. I’d personally have him 8 or 9, I think he’s going to have a ridiculous season.

26/9/5ish, second team all nba, second team all defense.
 
Last edited:

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,369
If Tatum averages 26/9/5, does anyone here know how many other Celtics in the history of the franchise have done that?

Bird, for much of his career, and Havlicek in '70-71. I can't find any more. Pretty good company.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,199
Lynn
If Tatum averages 26/9/5, does anyone here know how many other Celtics in the history of the franchise have done that?

Bird, for much of his career, and Havlicek in '70-71. I can't find any more. Pretty good company.
I believe someone else said it, but it’s right to be overtly bullish about him. Before the shutdown, Zach Lowe said Tatum was becoming so good, that he didn’t feel comfortable naming his comparisons on tv.

He is coming off a run where he was the youngest player in nba history to average 25/10/5 in the playoffs. I tend to lean pretty conservative with player projections, but as long as Tatum is healthy, he’s going to be in the MVP conversation for a very long time.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
If Tatum averages 26/9/5, does anyone here know how many other Celtics in the history of the franchise have done that?

Bird, for much of his career, and Havlicek in '70-71. I can't find any more. Pretty good company.
It's only been done 16 times in the game from what I can tell.
Robertson has 5
Bird has 3
Wilt 2
Giannis 2
Elgin Baylor 1
Doncic 1
Havlicek 1
Westbrook 1

I think anyway. Pretty good company.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
2008 Kevin Garnett was a top-5 player. 2019 Playoff Kawhi Leonard was a top-3 player, probably top-1.

Are people just uncomfortable valuing defense highly? It seems to be treated as a tiebreaker/afterthought in these discussions.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
2008 Kevin Garnett was a top-5 player. 2019 Playoff Kawhi Leonard was a top-3 player, probably top-1.

Are people just uncomfortable valuing defense highly? It seems to be treated as a tiebreaker/afterthought in these discussions.
If it makes you feel better, it's not a Port Cellar thing. Outside of here, it's even worse.

Guys like Dame and Booker are ranked way too highly. And KAT. Guys like KG and Tatum are rated primarily on their offense only.

If you're Gary Payton or Kawhi, you get credit for the D side of the court. If you're not, yes, it's more or less completely disregarded.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,014
Imaginationland
2008 KG was DPOY, 1st team all NBA and 3rd in the MVP voting. Pretty much everyone of influence had him pegged as a top 5 guy in the NBA that year, despite stats that were barely all-star level (19 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 block). I think he got plenty of credit for his defense.

If you're Gary Payton or Kawhi, you get credit for the D side of the court. If you're not, yes, it's more or less completely disregarded.
I don't think it's quite that narrow, but I'll say that anyone who doesn't make an all defense team (so, approximately the 10 best defenders in the league by reputation in any given year) isn't gonna have their defense properly regarded. Everyone else is either above average, average or bad.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,014
Imaginationland
I've mentioned this before I think, but the defensive comp who comes to mind when I see Tatum is Shawn Marion. Extremely versatile and long (an absolute menace off the ball in passing lanes, averaging 2 steals per game from 2001-2008), lacking the bulk to bang down low with the biggest guys down low and the foot speed to keep up with the smallest guys on the perimeter, but more than capable of giving everyone else trouble. He had a reputation as a pretty damn good all around defender for a long time (he received DPOY votes in 7 different seasons), but somehow never made an all defensive team.

Marion was the third most important offensive player on those Suns teams and could conserve energy just spotting up, a luxury Tatum won't have. Still, I can see that career trajectory for him on defense.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
But how? This thread throws out the possibility of Tatum getting better. I think we know that current Jaylen/Kemba/Smart around Tatum is not enough.
A player that took up a quarter of the team’s salary structure was largely unavailable for the 2020 playoffs. It’s not too much of a stretch to see that team winning last season with a league average sixth and seventh man.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
A player that took up a quarter of the team’s salary structure was largely unavailable for the 2020 playoffs. It’s not too much of a stretch to see that team winning last season with a league average sixth and seventh man.
Exactly. People really underestimate how good a Tatum/Brown/Smart team would look with a $15M/year elite shooter. Those guys are gettable, and Hayward was never that guy.

This is the beauty of a Tatum/Brown/(Smart) core: it’s not hard to find Tristan Thompsons and Aron Baynes and Joe Harrises, and they don’t cost max money even for their top-end models.
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,518
Maine
Gobert is a fine player, but in today’s NBA not nearly as valuable/“good” as someone like Tatum who can give you more offense and credibly guard 2-4 in today’s NBA.
I think Lowry is similar.