Oh for Christ's Sake.....People complaining about the rights and wrongs of end of season trophies

reggiecleveland

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I like all the little kids get a trophy better than picking awards at the end of a high school season. My school gives out athlete of the year and I stopped participating. These awards just lead to hurt feelings. If the MVP is obvious no award needed, if it isn't then there the season ends on a bad note.
 

Archer1979

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Agree to disagree, but I also think that travel baseball has gone from being a great motivator for kids to being one of the worst things to happen to the fabric of American Society (totally seriously), so YMMV.
You may be right on this. Our town is somewhat small so travel teams don't really play into it. For the most part, our tournament teams really had no cuts since so few would commit to the summer schedule.

Is your experience that it creates a separate class of student athletes too early in the process? If so, I could see this being an unintended (or maybe intended) consequence.

Full disclosure in this in that I tried to create a travel team for soccer but I insisted that it would be unanimous participation as it was going to be either a travel team (which much better competition) or part of the local league (in which we never lost a game for four years straight). Couldn't get it started since it was pretty much a 50/50 split whose numbers would have been too small for two teams but too many for one. There were a lot of halftime instructions that you could only kick it with your left foot (or had to pass five times before trying to score)... basically trying to get the kids to work on skills other than scoring.
 

AlNipper49

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I agree with travel ball. The pain in the ass factor is there but what is really the incentive? You wake up at 5am on Saturdays to go play teams you'll never see again in the hopes of winning a $2 ring? It's complete shit.

We play travel ball. The team was very hand picked. It has an amazing coach who is in it to build character for the kids. That's it. He wants to win, of course, but never has he for a microsecond prioritized winning over making the kids better people. It's not for everyone but it works for us.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Is your experience that it creates a separate class of student athletes too early in the process? If so, I could see this being an unintended (or maybe intended) consequence.
No, I feel that it creates meaningful division within communities, and that is literally ripping apart America.

I guess I should explain.

If you look at baseball travel teams today, the vast bulk have immensely high fees, and a number of the kids who play in them are getting supplemental coaching outside that is frequently expensive. The travel team I played on as a kid had a 6-7 game season where we basically played the adjoining towns. Now, you travel to a different state to play in a tournament at a site that has 16 diamonds, a hotel on site, restaurants, etc. It is a $750 weekend for most families, and you are playing in 3-7 of these each season. In addition, travel seasons now run at the same time as rec. So most kids play one or the other.

Inherently, this closes the door on a lot of good athletes whose parents either don't have the money or the time to give. Needless to say, if you go to the average travel team tournament, most of the kids are white, and the parents are generally - at minimum - moderately affluent.

And here is where shit breaks down. Because of that overlap in seasons, and because of the perception of prestige, good-but-not-yet-great athletes end up not playing baseball. And while this is bad for baseball, it is even worse for society. It is hard as shit to meet other adults in a social setting. Adults meet each other and get out of their echo chamber through work, but mainly through their kids' activities (also, swinging sites, but let's table that. We get it cheekydave, you get weird). And for better or for worse, you learn about people, expand your horizons and get reasonable insights while sitting on the sidelines in a stupid folding chair while drinking something you wish was alcohol.

Rec baseball (and softball) was a pillar of communities. I believe this with all my heart. By eroding and creating a class gap that removed a ton of white folks from rec baseball, travel ball has helped take a divide that has always been there in American society and increased it a thousand fold. We bowl alone, but we also now sit on the sidelines in spring and summer only with people who live in our own echo chamber. It's fucking horrible.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Everyone MATTERS on a team and should be valued, but not everyone is EQUAL. It's important to recognize everyone, but it's also important to recognize and highlight excellence.
As an Offensive Line coach, and an offensive person in general, I would have to say that this is the most idiotic horseshit I have ever read. Wait. your email on Deflategate was dumber. Still though.
 

Archer1979

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No, I feel that it creates meaningful division within communities, and that is literally ripping apart America.

I guess I should explain.

If you look at baseball travel teams today, the vast bulk have immensely high fees, and a number of the kids who play in them are getting supplemental coaching outside that is frequently expensive. The travel team I played on as a kid had a 6-7 game season where we basically played the adjoining towns. Now, you travel to a different state to play in a tournament at a site that has 16 diamonds, a hotel on site, restaurants, etc. It is a $750 weekend for most families, and you are playing in 3-7 of these each season. In addition, travel seasons now run at the same time as rec. So most kids play one or the other.

Inherently, this closes the door on a lot of good athletes whose parents either don't have the money or the time to give. Needless to say, if you go to the average travel team tournament, most of the kids are white, and the parents are generally - at minimum - moderately affluent.

And here is where shit breaks down. Because of that overlap in seasons, and because of the perception of prestige, good-but-not-yet-great athletes end up not playing baseball. And while this is bad for baseball, it is even worse for society. It is hard as shit to meet other adults in a social setting. Adults meet each other and get out of their echo chamber through work, but mainly through their kids' activities (also, swinging sites, but let's table that. We get it cheekydave, you get weird). And for better or for worse, you learn about people, expand your horizons and get reasonable insights while sitting on the sidelines in a stupid folding chair while drinking something you wish was alcohol.

Rec baseball (and softball) was a pillar of communities. I believe this with all my heart. By eroding and creating a class gap that removed a ton of white folks from rec baseball, travel ball has helped take a divide that has always been there in American society and increased it a thousand fold. We bowl alone, but we also now sit on the sidelines in spring and summer only with people who live in our own echo chamber. It's fucking horrible.
Ok. That makes sense. We could have had this problem with our tournament teams as it generally required us to travel to Central MA for a weekend. We got around that by subsidizing those that couldn't afford it. This is where the league as a whole came in as dues were required (unless you were a family in need and the fee was waived). We would also host tournaments as well as other things throughout the year and had league-merchandise that we would sell along with concessions. Made a lot of cash with those that we would use to get equipment and use for subsidizing the families in need. Baseball was by far the town's most popular (and expensive) sport so we did what we could to help.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Ok. That makes sense. We could have had this problem with our tournament teams as it generally required us to travel to Central MA for a weekend. We got around that by subsidizing those that couldn't afford it. This is where the league as a whole came in as dues were required (unless you were a family in need and the fee was waived). We would also host tournaments as well as other things throughout the year and had league-merchandise that we would sell along with concessions. Made a lot of cash with those that we would use to get equipment and use for subsidizing the families in need. Baseball was by far the town's most popular (and expensive) sport so we did what we could to help.
See, I think that the way you are approaching it is bang on. Unfortunately, in much of NJ at least, we don't see that type of approach. Kids in dire need will get help, but for a lot of kids even though it won't prevent their parents from putting food on the table per se, they don't have the ability to pay that money comfortably and then sacrifice the time to go out of town 3-4 times a year and spend the night. Youth rec baseball (and softball) is dying in multiple towns in NJ but travel ball is exploding. Many of the rec diamonds that used to look immaculate look decrepit, and the high dollar pay-to-play places look so good Mo Vaughn would consider taking a date there. It stinks.
 

Archer1979

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See, I think that the way you are approaching it is bang on. Unfortunately, in much of NJ at least, we don't see that type of approach. Kids in dire need will get help, but for a lot of kids even though it won't prevent their parents from putting food on the table per se, they don't have the ability to pay that money comfortably and then sacrifice the time to go out of town 3-4 times a year and spend the night. Youth rec baseball (and softball) is dying in multiple towns in NJ but travel ball is exploding. Many of the rec diamonds that used to look immaculate look decrepit, and the high dollar pay-to-play places look so good Mo Vaughn would consider taking a date there. It stinks.
It’s one of the advantages of living in a small town. All the players are needed or there is no tournament team. No town team for the tournament means that the players have to catch onto another towns team, which then means that the parents that would have been coaches are just parents again…. Which simply can’t happen.
 
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AlNipper49

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See we have all 3. There is rec / little league. To get into a tourney team you need to play rec.

Travel is broken up into three buckets
- kids who like playing baseball and want to play more - 20%
- kids who are really good and need to play around kids as good as they - 10%
- kids whose parents think travel ball is like an all star team - 70%
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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See we have all 3. There is rec / little league. To get into a tourney team you need to play rec.

Travel is broken up into three buckets
- kids who like playing baseball and want to play more - 20%
- kids who are really good and need to play around kids as good as they - 10%
- kids whose parents think travel ball is like an all star team - 70%
This is how travel ball should be.
 

MB's Hidden Ball

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I don’t have any of the participation-type trophies from my childhood, but I sure as shit remember them and how I felt when I received them.
Yeah, this. I was an absolutely terrible baseball player but I loved my trophies. They made me feel that despite my obvious athletic inadequacy I was still a valuable part of the team.

Somehow I survived into adulthood despite being the recipient of a “participation” trophy. Those trophy-opponents can get fucked.

*we also got Papa Gino’s.
 

DJnVa

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Inherently, this closes the door on a lot of good athletes whose parents either don't have the money or the time to give. Needless to say, if you go to the average travel team tournament, most of the kids are white, and the parents are generally - at minimum - moderately affluent.
You're essentially describing the pay to play issues that US soccer deals with. The kids on the top teams are the kids that are good, and can afford it, or, aren't that good, but can still afford it.
 

Just a bit outside

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You're essentially describing the pay to play issues that US soccer deals with. The kids on the top teams are the kids that are good, and can afford it, or, aren't that good, but can still afford it.
Couldn’t the same be said for almost every sport. Baseball, soccer, hockey, tennis, golf, gymnastics, etc… are all sports that are headed more and more to the wealthy. I don’t know about youth football but I would guess it is still an issue, although smaller, with all the private coaching.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Couldn’t the same be said for almost every sport. Baseball, soccer, hockey, tennis, golf, gymnastics, etc… are all sports that are headed more and more to the wealthy. I don’t know about youth football but I would guess it is still an issue, although smaller, with all the private coaching.
Right now youth football hasn't been hit too hard with the private coaching bug. At the HS level though, you are starting to see more and more of this. One of the things that mitigates this issue is the open door policy that many college coaches have for coaches at any level in their state to come to their practices, and also the relatively low cost camps around the state these coaches and their staffs run in order to get good connections within the state for recruiting.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Right now youth football hasn't been hit too hard with the private coaching bug. At the HS level though, you are starting to see more and more of this. One of the things that mitigates this issue is the open door policy that many college coaches have for coaches at any level in their state to come to their practices, and also the relatively low cost camps around the state these coaches and their staffs run in order to get good connections within the state for recruiting.
Private coaching is a strange phenomena. A friend of mine's son loved baseball and couldn't wait to be on a team. The first season (I think he was eight) went fine, but as the second season went along he found that he wasn't playing as much. Turns out just about every kid on his team had private coaches (at age nine) and they were getting better and my friend's son (who didn't have a coach) was left sitting on his hands. He decided that he hated baseball after that and never returned.

The kid wasn't bad a little player, but the point is this sort of hyper competitiveness between parents have unknown ramifications on others. This kid loved baseball, now he doesn't. What sucks is that parents feel like they have to make sure that junior is the "best in the league" for an inter-town Little League. I can sorta get it if this is a travel team, but the whole youth sports industrial complex just fucking sucks. The amount of normally intelligent people being scammed out of thousands and thousands of dollars by people who promise that they can take their kid to "the next level" is legion. And all of the parents say something similar like a mantra, "If I spend the money now on coaching, my kid will be able to get a college scholarship later and I'll save then."

These private coaching grifters are lucky that most people don't understand the math in order for their mantra to be true.
 

LeoCarrillo

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What’s the point of youth sports in 2023 again, then? All the lessons.

Cardiovascular activity, a bit of physical toughness, a bit of mental toughness in getting back out there after a loss, a bit of dedication and a pinch of learning to play as a member of a unit for the greater good.

That’s all well and good. But it seems like the average mediocre athlete kid is basically crowded out by the camps-n-private-coaches industrial complex by like age 10. Or play and pass it every time to the scholarship-or-bust kid. Seems pretty corroded.
 

Red Right Ankle

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What’s the point of youth sports in 2023 again, then? All the lessons.

Cardiovascular activity, a bit of physical toughness, a bit of mental toughness in getting back out there after a loss, a bit of dedication and a pinch of learning to play as a member of a unit for the greater good.

That’s all well and good. But it seems like the average mediocre athlete kid is basically crowded out by the camps-n-private-coaches industrial complex by like age 10. Or play and pass it every time to the scholarship-or-bust kid. Seems pretty corroded.
Like everything, it's to bilk as much money out of the suckers as possible.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Like everything, it's to bilk as much money out of the suckers as possible.
Yeah. I’m not anti-sports. Or pro-milquetoast. Just feels like we used to get to be so-so and still have fun till about age 14-15 in olden times. Now your kid is 8 and getting yapped at by some teammate in a headband who went to Landon Donovan Summer Camp.
 

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For the record, we had the meeting with the parents who were concerned on this issue and it ended with "Your concern is noted. Now go away because we are going to start talking about people who will actually be doing work for the program and you have never shown much desire for that." basically.
 

moretsyndrome

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Yeah. I’m not anti-sports. Or pro-milquetoast. Just feels like we used to get to be so-so and still have fun till about age 14-15 in olden times. Now your kid is 8 and getting yapped at by some teammate in a headband who went to Landon Donovan Summer Camp.
This could be its own thread, or more likely I should probably just have a direct talk with my wife about this, but I'm right on the edge of a reckoning about how far we should take things with MiniMoret, who'll be 13 soon. He is a very good basketball player. He is not great. He struggles with players of greater speed/size/strength at both ends. In our small Catholic school league, he can take games over, but is a 5th/6th man on his AAU team. I'd project him to be able to play varsity at the HS level in public school, but he's probably too limited right now to plan on playing at one of the RI recruitment-level private schools (Hendricken, LaSalle, etc.)

Just last night, we got a text from the AAU coach, whom we all like, about extra one-on-one training this summer. I don't know if this is because of some untapped potential that I can't see, or because the coach notices the cars pulling in and out and how people are dressed after work at practice and figures we're among the higher-income parents out there. MiniMoret is very coachable, so I'm not surprised by this. I'm also not surprised that my wife, who barely played any sports or knew anything about hoops until about 2017, is not even hesitating about plowing ahead.

I'm hesitating, and not just because of the money. The bolded is a big part of it. It's gotten ridiculous. Baseball, which is probably the only sport that I could really help with, never really got off the ground despite him being a decent player because Little League is beginning to feel obsolete and we can't go "all-in" with AAU and travel with multiple sports.

Despite my mediocrity, I still have great memories from Little League and wish that he could have had something similar to these experiences. AAU isn't like that, at all. Being stuck in some faceless suburban competition factory filled with desperate parents in ill-fitting athleisurewear who are abusing the officials is nothing like when I was manning 1st base in a t-shirt and jeans at Willow Field, cheering on my best friend while he tried to pitch us to a win. Christ, our coach was even fucked-up half the time, just like Matthau in Bad News Bears. It was glorious.

I'm angry at myself, because it's not as if I couldn't see it coming. It's just so easy for it to spin out of control. In order for him to get past this level, he probably needs to go full gym rat, which I don't think is his nature, and I'm not sure I want it to be his nature. There's so much else to enjoy at his age and, as we all know too well, it goes really fucking fast.
 

LoweTek

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My LL coach smoked like a chimney in the dugout, on the field, wherever. Still stands as one of the best coaches I ever had in any sport. He's also the only coach I ever had who had no kids in the program. They had all aged out years prior to when I had him as my manager.
 

Zedia

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My LL coach smoked like a chimney in the dugout, on the field, wherever. Still stands as one of the best coaches I ever had in any sport. He's also the only coach I ever had who had no kids in the program. They had all aged out years prior to when I had him as my manager.
I wonder if we had the same coach. Our “steal” sign was him placing his hand over his heart. We said, “What if you’re having a heart attack?” Wiseass kids.
 

troparra

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What’s the point of youth sports in 2023 again, then? All the lessons.

Cardiovascular activity, a bit of physical toughness, a bit of mental toughness in getting back out there after a loss, a bit of dedication and a pinch of learning to play as a member of a unit for the greater good.

That’s all well and good. But it seems like the average mediocre athlete kid is basically crowded out by the camps-n-private-coaches industrial complex by like age 10. Or play and pass it every time to the scholarship-or-bust kid. Seems pretty corroded.
When my son was in 6th grade, the newly hired HS basketball coach in our district announced the creation of a new youth program for basketball. I went to the parent meeting about it, and the plan was to have two 10-player travel teams per grade, coached by varsity and JV assistants. They were going to hold a 3 day tryout, and they wanted every player to show up, even if they didn't think they'd make the team.
My son he only started playing the previous year so he was in the probably-not-gonna-make-the-team group.

Anyway, something like 50-60 kids tried out for the 6th grade teams. The top 10 made the A team, the next 10 made the B team, everybody else could participate in the "summer skills camps".

Seemed fine to me, until I found out the A team was practicing 4 days a week and were scheduled to play over 40 games that year, and the B team also practicing 4 days a week, but only had like 30 or so games, while the Summer Skills Camps amounted to three 2-hour Saturday practices with like 80 kids at a time.
At the first summer skills camp I texted my wife, "I think our son's basketball career is over."