Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

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benhogan

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Centers don't have to shoot from the outside if everyone else does, look at Baynes, Capela, Bogut when GS was dominant, Thompson, etc. etc. There is still a role for the defending, rebounding, screen-setting hard rolling big in the league.
Hallelujah
YES on defending, YES on rebounding, YES on screen setting, YES on rolling....and YES on physical play.

Having 5 guys on the floor that ALL want their jump shot can create confusion, uncertainty, and bad chemistry. It also can lead to guys sulking after they miss a shot since they probably won't get to shoot again.

If your BIG can shoot above 33% on 3s he'll capture enough attention on the perimeter. At that point you WANT him to be a low volume shooter, since the other 4 are more efficient scorers, and have him focused on setting screens for the other 4.
 
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DJnVa

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Folks on ESPN Radio this morning giving off strong indications that KD to Nets should be leader in clubhouse.
 

benhogan

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Folks on ESPN Radio this morning giving off strong indications that KD to Nets should be leader in clubhouse.
Are there benefits of Golden State doing a "Durant sign and trade" to up his total pay package and make it a 5-year deal (Nets may even want that extra year guaranteed) for more money?

Maybe the cap savants around here (Nighthob, McPickl, etc) could speculate on how that might work from the Nets and Warriors financial and player movement perspective
 

the moops

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Can't do the 5 year sign and trades. There is no benefit to the player in sign and trades - besides going to a team that does not have the cap space to sign him outright
 

lovegtm

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Can't do the 5 year sign and trades. There is no benefit to the player in sign and trades - besides going to a team that does not have the cap space to sign him outright
Yup, they took away that option to try and give incumbents more of an advantage in FA. It didn't work at all, because incumbents have an almost infinite advantage in RFA anyway, and players on their 3rd deal generally don't care about the money at all. Even CP3, after working hard to get 5-year deals for the olds in the new CBA, was fine doing his 5th year with Houston as only a partial guarantee iirc.
 

AMS25

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Captaincoop

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Adams would only be a two-year commitment instead of four, and at less money that it would take to bring in Vucevic.

Is that a possible Al sign-and-trade destination?
 

Cellar-Door

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Adams would only be a two-year commitment instead of four, and at less money that it would take to bring in Vucevic.

Is that a possible Al sign-and-trade destination?
No, Al would make more, and they're trying to shed luxury tax.

If you could get him for almost nothing (basically eating salary) I'd like Adams, but Vucevic is a much better player than Adams, so unless he gets a truly crazy offer from Orlando I'd prefer targeting him
 

lovegtm

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WCS from Sacramento might become an UFA. He has no three-point range to speak of at this point, and his FT shooting doesn't give a lot of confidence that he'll get any. He can run the floor though, but not sure he fits.
When a center gets played off the floor, it’s almost always due to his defense, not his offense, so I don’t worry as much about the shooting part there.

I’m ok with a non-shooting center if he can set screens, put vertical pressure on the rim, and be elite defensively. Capela doesn’t get played off the floor vs GSW on offense, it’s a defensive thing. I haven’t followed Cauley-Stein enough to know whether he can do any of this though.

I’m a bit partial to Adams over Vuc just because defense is such a big part of a center’s job, and I trust Adams a lot more there. I also don’t think he hurt OKC’s spacing much: that was more a shitty outside shooters issue. Obv his contract is too big, but if OKC attaches an asset to move him, that’s a nice tiebreaker.
 

the moops

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And there aren't many teams besides Golden State that truly make a center unplayable because of their defense. Unless your name is Boban or Kanter or a few others of course
 

pjheff

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Can't do the 5 year sign and trades. There is no benefit to the player in sign and trades - besides going to a team that does not have the cap space to sign him outright
One rumor was that KD might sign a 5 year deal on the premise that he’d spend the next year rehabbing with them and then get traded to a team of his choice next summer. He’d get an extra $57 million in security, and Golden State would get something (if only a trade exception) in return.
 

benhogan

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One rumor was that KD might sign a 5 year deal on the premise that he’d spend the next year rehabbing with them and then get traded to a team of his choice next summer. He’d get an extra $57 million in security, and Golden State would get something (if only a trade exception) in return.
According to @WindhorstESPN, a potential scenario the Warriors are discussing is signing Kevin Durant to a 5-Year contract, take care of him financially, rehab him, and then potential work with him to be traded.

Go to 1:17 for Windy commentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-ELHb9cDI
 

Cellar-Door

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should this even be allowed?
yes and no. Technically they can't have an actual agreement, so GS would hypothetically be free to either refuse to trade him after he signed, or trade him somewhere else. A S&T is one transaction, this is really just signing a guy with a non-binding promise to take care of him by sending him where he wants at the end of the year.
 

lovegtm

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yes and no. Technically they can't have an actual agreement, so GS would hypothetically be free to either refuse to trade him after he signed, or trade him somewhere else. A S&T is one transaction, this is really just signing a guy with a non-binding promise to take care of him by sending him where he wants at the end of the year.
Couldn’t he get a no-trade to de-risk them moving him to a non-desired destination?
 

DJnVa

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Kawhi has declined his option and become a FA. Per the reports, he is "seriously considering" staying in Toronto.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics are hiring Fairmont (WV) State coach Joe Mazzulla as an assistant coach, league sources tell ESPN. Mazzulla made a strong impression with Celtics G League staff before returning to college two years ago. He played for John Beilein at WVU.
--Woj

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1142957795618279425
One of Rhode Island's best basketball players the past couple of decades. I still remember him playing Boogie Cousins man to man in a box and one defensive scheme when WVU upset Kentucky in the NCAA tournament in 2010.

Mazzulla played one year for Beilin, and four years for Bob Huggins, including an injury redshirt year. His brother Justin is a junior captain at George Washington. I played in local adult leagues with his father Dan, who played professionally in South America.
 

nattysez

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Going to come back on a 1 + 1 I betcha.
That would be my guess, too.

On KD, they'd have to agree with the Nets on the trade ahead of time, somehow keep it secret (so the players involved don't check out), and pray that the players involved stay healthy. Seems like a very tough thing to get through, especially since keeping the cap space available will make it clear that a trade is coming.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don’t buy that KD would give up control over his destination to GS just to get guaranteed money four years from now.
 

lovegtm

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I don’t buy that KD would give up control over his destination to GS just to get guaranteed money four years from now.
Given the history of Achilles injuries and 30+ year-olds, it’s not that crazy. It’s not hard for me to imagine that he and the organization have enough trust/overlapping incentives to work that out—not every relationship has to be contractually mediated.

If the Warriors do this, it indicates they feel a need to do right by him to maintain themselves as a FA destination, which is further incentive for them to behave well.
 

benhogan

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Given the history of Achilles injuries and 30+ year-olds, it’s not that crazy. It’s not hard for me to imagine that he and the organization have enough trust/overlapping incentives to work that out—not every relationship has to be contractually mediated.

If the Warriors do this, it indicates they feel a need to do right by him to maintain themselves as a FA destination, which is further incentive for them to behave well.
What are the odds KD never comes back from this injury? Is it 10%. Plus what are the odds he is a lesser KD on his return (he will be a year and half older)

Yikes, the gamble GSW (~$1B in risk in contract/tax penalties) would take relative to the $57M (1 extra yr gtd) benefit to Durant in a "sign now to a 5yr MAX & 1yr future trade" would be incredibly wide
VS.
just letting him sign a 4yr max deal elsewhere and KD getting that 5th-year down the road (lowering that $57M benefit)

At this point (this is pure speculation on my part) I think Durant signs elsewhere next week. The Warriors claim they wanted to resign him BUT were afraid they could not deal him to his preferred destination a year from now (plus they see legal ramifications with the CBA with a 1yr sign and trade deal).

GSW mgmt then goes on a PR offensive, saying they fully expect KD to recover and be the perennial MVP candidate he has always been. Continue with glowing reviews of KD's time there, his 2 Championships, MVPs, how special Kevin is to them, etc (all of which is true)

GSW brings back Looney and Klay. They compete for Championships with Kerr, Dray, Steph, Klay, Looney and other ring chasers for the next 4 seasons.

The Nets or Knicks sign Kyrie/KD tandem and dream of future championships.

I'd expect SamRayNot to have the best take on this situation since he is much closer to all the key players involved.
 

Seabass

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Given the history of Achilles injuries and 30+ year-olds, it’s not that crazy. It’s not hard for me to imagine that he and the organization have enough trust/overlapping incentives to work that out—not every relationship has to be contractually mediated.

If the Warriors do this, it indicates they feel a need to do right by him to maintain themselves as a FA destination, which is further incentive for them to behave well.
I just can't see a way either party agrees to this -- there's just so much downside for everyone. If GSW gives him the supermax with the plan on trading him to where he wants to go next year, they have to forecast out a year for whichever franchise(s) are on his list to make sure money matches up. Maybe he doesn't recover fully and the handshake deal falls apart, and they're paying a ton of money they never planned on paying.

If you're KD you're putting all of your faith in GSW to not trade you to a place you don't want to go to and that your recovery will go as planned. He'd have to know that once he signs a contract, he's just an asset and GSW can do whatever they like with him and his contract. And I don't care how much goodwill he's engendered with the Warriors, the NBA is a business firs The Clippers retired Blake Griffin's number then traded him three months later.
 

cheech13

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Why shouldn't it be?
No, it is not allowed, but it would depend on the circumstances. If GS and Durant have agreed to the terms of a delayed sign-and-trade then it would be a clear circumvention of the salary cap and the league would likely punish them heavily. If it's just a "make-good, we'll trade if you want later" type of thing then it's more of a gray area.

The fact that this has been leaked to the media would suggest that Golden State already knows he's leaving and are trying to control the narrative by showing that they just wanted what was best for him.
 
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nighthob

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I just can't see a way either party agrees to this -- there's just so much downside for everyone. If GSW gives him the supermax with the plan on trading him to where he wants to go next year, they have to forecast out a year for whichever franchise(s) are on his list to make sure money matches up. Maybe he doesn't recover fully and the handshake deal falls apart, and they're paying a ton of money they never planned on paying.

If you're KD you're putting all of your faith in GSW to not trade you to a place you don't want to go to and that your recovery will go as planned. He'd have to know that once he signs a contract, he's just an asset and GSW can do whatever they like with him and his contract. And I don't care how much goodwill he's engendered with the Warriors, the NBA is a business firs The Clippers retired Blake Griffin's number then traded him three months later.
FYI, there is no supermax for 10 year vets. We use that designation for players signed to DVPE deals which involve a premature step-up (i.e. a seven year vet signing a 35% max deal). Once you've been in the league ten years there is no more supermax, because 35% is the maximum cap figure for a contract to start at. And to be eligible for the DVPE you need to still be with the team that drafted you.

As for Golden State, they would basically be committing harakiri at the agent level by pulling something like that. They'd be announcing to everyone that that front office could never be trusted again (because this would be a handshake deal to circumvent the CBA it's not like the agent has any recourse, Durant would just be screwed after doing Golden State a solid and letting them recoup something for his exit).
 

lovegtm

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FYI, there is no supermax for 10 year vets. We use that designation for players signed to DVPE deals which involve a premature step-up (i.e. a seven year vet signing a 35% max deal). Once you've been in the league ten years there is no more supermax, because 35% is the maximum cap figure for a contract to start at. And to be eligible for the DVPE you need to still be with the team that drafted you.

As for Golden State, they would basically be committing harakiri at the agent level by pulling something like that. They'd be announcing to everyone that that front office could never be trusted again (because this would be a handshake deal to circumvent the CBA it's not like the agent has any recourse, Durant would just be screwed after doing Golden State a solid and letting them recoup something for his exit).
Exactly, re the bolded. Humans are quite good at navigating these multi-iteration, multi-party trust games without contracts. Particularly when the game is limited in scope and number of players.
 

lexrageorge

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If the "agreement" is that the Warriors will offer KD the max, and would "consider" trade requests and offers for him in a year after he's healthy, then there's unlikely to be any circumvention. In that case, there would be no difference between KD and any other resigned UFA.

If there was a handshake agreement to trade KD to the Nets or Knicks, then it gets dicey, and I'm not sure why GSW's front office would agree to that. It seems like it would be too easy to uncover such an arrangement, and the results would be bad for everyone involved (including KD).
 

Devizier

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Honestly would you trade Hayward for Durant at this point? I think the reluctance to trade for Paul is instructive.
 

Sam Ray Not

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If you have the Athletic, Danny LeRoux (always a great read) lays out all the pros and cons of a hypothetical KD sign-and-trade: https://theathletic.com/1044145/2019/06/24/leroux-a-primer-on-a-potential-theoretical-kevin-durant-delayed-sign-and-trade/

Not sure I have any more insight into KD's thinking anyone else here, but my general sense is that the sign-and-trade rumor is BS (like 99% of the S/T proposals that are floated by fans and observers); and that if KD wants to leave GS he'll just do so, and — with his $300M Nike contract and other investments — won't sweat leaving the extra year / $50M on the table.
 

JakeRae

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I don’t really think a 5 year deal now where they agreed to trade him circumvents the cap rules. The cap rule exists to prevent any team other than the prior team from being able to offer a 5 year deal. In the scenario outlined, the acquiring team is trading for him a year from now, so they aren’t getting a 5 year deal. What would be circumvention would be signing a player to a 5 year max with an already in place trade that would be consummated as soon as the player became eligible to be traded. No one is talking about that.
 

lovegtm

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Go for it. And with no KD this year, Irving can piss off whatever youngsters they keep around.

I'm here for all of it.
Yeah, the Celtics were very confident that they could keep Kyrie happy for a year and then lock down AD. Worked out well.

I suppose the difference here is that they’d have both guys on long-term deals. I’d pull the trigger for sure as Brooklyn, since it’s way higher odds of winning a championship than the alternatives.

Chance for Celtics fans schadenfreude is high enough to keep me entertained, all for this move.
 

nighthob

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Yes I would think the Nets would renounce Russell at that point and he'd be a UFA.
Make a max offer to Russell when the bell opens and force Brooklyn to let him go. Even if he’s not ideal at a first max with his uptrending he’s going to be a future trade asset.
 

cheech13

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Portland has traded Evan Turner to Atlanta for Kent Bazemore.
Surprised that Atlanta would do this without getting some kind of pick back. I guess they shed a little salary in the process (~$600K) but Bazemore is the superior player. For Portland they get their SF insurance since they won't be able to bring back Rodney Hood this offseason.
 

lovegtm

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Love this. There is nothing available next year either. They'll continue to suck for a long time if they miss out this signing period.
It’s not really fun for me anymore, just sad.

Laker-freude, on the other hand, can never get old.
 
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