Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

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Captaincoop

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I'm going to be pretty surprised if Hayward, Tatum, and Brown are all on this roster come October. They all expect to play starter minutes, and you can't effectively play them all together. Plus the team needs another scorer who can create for himself to replace Irving.

My guess is that Danny explores ways to move Hayward, but ends up trading Brown for a guard who can score.
 

bowiac

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Paul is owed 38.5, 41.4, and 44.2 mil the next three years.
Hayward is owed 32.7 and 34.2 over the next two.

That's a decent gap the next two years with a pretty big pill to swallow in 2021-22.
I have a lot more faith in Chris Paul's ability to add value for a team over the next couple years than Hayward's, and he fills a need for the Celtics more clearly (and keeps them from needing to sign Rozier).

Paul is overpaid, but is still a good NBA player. Hayward is a question mark at best. I don't know which contract is worse by itself, but given Paul fills a need, and the Celtics are probably over the cap for the foreseeable future regardless, I'd rather roll with Paul.

Reasonable minds can differ.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't want anything to do with Chris Paul's contract at his age and health history. I'm also high on Hayward coming back closer to his old self next year.
 

johnmd20

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Paul's contract is brutal. He's running out of gas and it would be absurd to take on that contract. Hayward for Paul would be malpractice by Ainge.
 

tims4wins

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If Celtics fans disliked Kyrie Irving, imagine what it would be like to root for Chris Paul and his perpetual sneer, his incessant whining and his never-ending stream of lower extremity injuries.
I have loathed Chris Paul dating back to his days at Wake Forest. Glad that others have come around on him. He is a very talented player but man does he suck.
 

the moops

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Paul's contract is brutal. He's running out of gas and it would be absurd to take on that contract. Hayward for Paul would be malpractice by Ainge.
They are over the cap anyway for the next two years. If they are willing to pay more tax, we shouldn't care. So it all comes down to the 21-22 season, and we likely wouldn't have cap space to sign a max guy anyway with Brown due for a payday the previous year, and Tatum due that year. Smart, Paul, and likely Horford would all be in there final season in 21-22.

I could get behind this move
 

nighthob

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Clearly wants to lock in more guaranteed money and must have confidence that he’ll be a prime secondary target for teams but, man, I would just take the $25M and try next year. Wonder if the KD/Klay injuries are impacting how guys are thinking.
Or maybe he's just betting on the Los Angeles Klown Shows striking out in free agency and needing someone like him?
 

moondog80

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I have a lot more faith in Chris Paul's ability to add value for a team over the next couple years than Hayward's, and he fills a need for the Celtics more clearly (and keeps them from needing to sign Rozier).

Paul is overpaid, but is still a good NBA player. Hayward is a question mark at best. I don't know which contract is worse by itself, but given Paul fills a need, and the Celtics are probably over the cap for the foreseeable future regardless, I'd rather roll with Paul.

Reasonable minds can differ.

I'm fine swapping the salaries with the first two years and would even give up a bit for the privilege. But 44 mil for Paul when Hayward is off the books in 2021-22 is brutal.
 

ifmanis5

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And we thought Kyrie was weird...

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141092267211591682Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 36m36 minutes ago
Sources tell ESPN that Chris Paul repeatedly made fun of James Harden for having "manboobs" during practices over the last 2 seasons. Several times Harden broke down into tears and had to leave the practice facility. No surprise to see Harden wanting Paul out now.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141095270991761408
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 24m24 minutes ago
Sources close to the Rockets tell ESPN that tension between the two started on a team flight last season when Harden farted in Chris Paul's face while Paul was sleeping. This resulted in Paul getting pink-eye.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141096501394989056
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 20m20 minutes ago
Source tells ESPN that another incident happened this past February where Chris Paul told Harden he'd "help him pick out a bra". Harden replied with, "use the money from your contract to buy new hamstrings". The two had to be physically separated.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141098351779356673
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry12m12 minutes ago
The relationship between Harden & Paul had become so strained that Paul would refer to Harden as "James Hard-On" around teammates, usually eliciting laughs. This deeply irritated Harden, a source tells ESPN.

I'll guess Harden leaked that stuff.
 

Jeff Van GULLY

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Bruh, Barry got you...


Chris Paul is over the hill, can't stay healthy and is, in my opinion, a locker room cancer. I would want nothing to do with him on the Celtics.

I think if someone is getting traded this offseason it's Jaylen.
 

ifmanis5

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I know it's fake- Skip Bayless' real ones were worse!
On the serious note, I have no idea where Paul can go, his age and contract are a poison pill. The Rockets will be forced to make it work. No way someone takes on that money.
 

BaseballJones

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I'm going to be pretty surprised if Hayward, Tatum, and Brown are all on this roster come October. They all expect to play starter minutes, and you can't effectively play them all together. Plus the team needs another scorer who can create for himself to replace Irving.

My guess is that Danny explores ways to move Hayward, but ends up trading Brown for a guard who can score.
What do you mean "for a guard who can score"? eFG% of .527. Career 36.5% three point shooter (the EXACT same as James Harden, by the way). 13.0 points a game on only 10.7 field goal attempts. Career ORating of 107 (Harden is 113, Beal is 109, Wall is 106).

Jaylen can score just fine. If he took 20 shots a game (like a team's #1 option did), he'd average about 24 points a game.
 

Nick Kaufman

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And we thought Kyrie was weird...

https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141092267211591682Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 36m36 minutes ago
Sources tell ESPN that Chris Paul repeatedly made fun of James Harden for having "manboobs" during practices over the last 2 seasons. Several times Harden broke down into tears and had to leave the practice facility. No surprise to see Harden wanting Paul out now.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141095270991761408
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 24m24 minutes ago
Sources close to the Rockets tell ESPN that tension between the two started on a team flight last season when Harden farted in Chris Paul's face while Paul was sleeping. This resulted in Paul getting pink-eye.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141096501394989056
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry 20m20 minutes ago
Source tells ESPN that another incident happened this past February where Chris Paul told Harden he'd "help him pick out a bra". Harden replied with, "use the money from your contract to buy new hamstrings". The two had to be physically separated.
https://twitter.com/SportsTalkBarry/status/1141098351779356673
Adrian Wojnarowski@SportsTalkBarry12m12 minutes ago
The relationship between Harden & Paul had become so strained that Paul would refer to Harden as "James Hard-On" around teammates, usually eliciting laughs. This deeply irritated Harden, a source tells ESPN.

I'll guess Harden leaked that stuff.
Fart-induced pink eye is the best NBA injury ever.
 

BaseballJones

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Paul's contract is brutal. He's running out of gas and it would be absurd to take on that contract. Hayward for Paul would be malpractice by Ainge.
For lots of reasons, I want absolutely no part of Chris Paul on the Celtics.
 

nighthob

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I know it's fake- Skip Bayless' real ones were worse!
On the serious note, I have no idea where Paul can go, his age and contract are a poison pill. The Rockets will be forced to make it work. No way someone takes on that money.
Allow me to introduce you to Jimmy Dolan...
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Aside from his avatar, which is hilarious, SportsTalkBarry isn't typically that funny. The manboobs and fart/pink-eye stuff is gold though.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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I know it's fake- Skip Bayless' real ones were worse!
On the serious note, I have no idea where Paul can go, his age and contract are a poison pill. The Rockets will be forced to make it work. No way someone takes on that money.
Dammit. I so wanted the fart one to be true. Lol.
 

Cellar-Door

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Whelp if Horford is gone too, this summer gets interesting in a not great way, basically looks like 3 options....
1. Renounce everything, trade or stash the picks and go into FA hoping to make a splash
2. Hold everyone, see what Rozier gets offered and match or let him walk, then look at who is left in FA
3. Start trading like crazy.

I expect a mix of 2 and 3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I have a lot more faith in Chris Paul's ability to add value for a team over the next couple years than Hayward's, and he fills a need for the Celtics more clearly (and keeps them from needing to sign Rozier).

Paul is overpaid, but is still a good NBA player. Hayward is a question mark at best. I don't know which contract is worse by itself, but given Paul fills a need, and the Celtics are probably over the cap for the foreseeable future regardless, I'd rather roll with Paul.

Reasonable minds can differ.
I agree with you on Paul. His "decline" in Houston is largely a product of the ball being in Harden's hands and not his. He is still a very very good player, fills a major need on our roster at PG while eliminating the logjam at the wing. In short, Paul is the better player who is a better fit over the next couple years than Hayward. I feel this is a win-win for both teams.


If they don't make a big move for a PG, I like adding Collison there as a band aid.
I'd imagine this is the type of stop-gap Ainge would be looking at if he was able to pull the trigger on a deal to move up to Garland. If no deal can be made I think he'd look to sign Rozier rather than bring in a veteran like Collison on a multi-year deal without a plan for the future.
 
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lexrageorge

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Chris Paul will be 34. He's not going to get better, but his contract will keep getting worse, and there is not much avenue for unloading it in the future either.
 

DJnVa

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Chris Paul will be 34. He's not going to get better, but his contract will keep getting worse, and there is not much avenue for unloading it in the future either.
What does Chris Paul add to this team? The ability to win 44 games? 48?
 

BaseballJones

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Renounce everyone. Sign the right max free agent. Draft well. If they "make" the lottery, then draft a stud again in 2020 and roll from there.

Or.... I have no idea. This is crazy stuff.
 

NomarsFool

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Latest rumor report I saw has Horford signing a 4 year deal somewhere else.

Looks like lots of minutes available at the 4 and 5. Maybe they do end up bringing Morris back, but I don't really want to see that. I'd rather hope to get lucky with one of our 3 picks in the draft. I just can't stand players that don't pass, and Morris is really a black hole.

As for the "logjam" between Jaylen, Jason, and Hayward? I don't really see it. Hayward can play some time at the 4, Jaylen can certainly play a lot at the 2, and Tatum picks up the rest. They will all get 30+ minutes a game, plus there are the inevitable injuries, rest games, etc. There will be plenty of minutes for them to go around (as I'm thinking Smart plays more at the 1 next season than he did this past season).
 

ifmanis5

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If they open up all the cap space, can they now try to sign D'Angelo Russell to an offer sheet?
I can't see the kids (Brown and Tatum) being super psyched about another shoot-first PG. Spending money on a quality big if Al is truly out of the mix is the priority at this point. Smart could still be their pass first/defense PG of the future. It's a super fluid situation, though.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Latest rumor report I saw has Horford signing a 4 year deal somewhere else.

Looks like lots of minutes available at the 4 and 5. Maybe they do end up bringing Morris back, but I don't really want to see that. I'd rather hope to get lucky with one of our 3 picks in the draft. I just can't stand players that don't pass, and Morris is really a black hole.

As for the "logjam" between Jaylen, Jason, and Hayward? I don't really see it. Hayward can play some time at the 4, Jaylen can certainly play a lot at the 2, and Tatum picks up the rest. They will all get 30+ minutes a game, plus there are the inevitable injuries, rest games, etc. There will be plenty of minutes for them to go around (as I'm thinking Smart plays more at the 1 next season than he did this past season).
The redundancy isn't about positions it is about skillset as all 3 players are creators who need the ball in their hands to be most effective. We saw this as an issue all season.
 

mcpickl

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Latest rumor report I saw has Horford signing a 4 year deal somewhere else.

Looks like lots of minutes available at the 4 and 5. Maybe they do end up bringing Morris back, but I don't really want to see that. I'd rather hope to get lucky with one of our 3 picks in the draft. I just can't stand players that don't pass, and Morris is really a black hole.

As for the "logjam" between Jaylen, Jason, and Hayward? I don't really see it. Hayward can play some time at the 4, Jaylen can certainly play a lot at the 2, and Tatum picks up the rest. They will all get 30+ minutes a game, plus there are the inevitable injuries, rest games, etc. There will be plenty of minutes for them to go around (as I'm thinking Smart plays more at the 1 next season than he did this past season).
Hayward at the 4?

That would be a brutal use of Hayward. He's basically a big shooting guard.
 

DannyDarwinism

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With no Al or Kyrie, looks like there's about $105 mil on the books- $72 under contract, 8.5 in draft pick cap holds, and 24.5 in FA cap holds (Rozier, MaMo, Theis, Wannamaker).

Barring a big, out-of-nowhere signing, the way forward is to accumulate assets/draft capital by taking on shitty-but-short contracts to restock the pantry while developing the kids as much as possible. I did not foresee us being back here so soon.
 

moondog80

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Of all the contenders this year, the only ones built on being crappy for along period of time were Philly and maybe OKC. Milwaukee, Golden State, Houston, Toronto, they didn't look like they were turning into good situations, but they did. I trust Ainge.
 

mcpickl

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With no Al or Kyrie, looks like there's about $105 mil on the books- $72 under contract, 8.5 in draft pick cap holds, and 24.5 in FA cap holds (Rozier, MaMo, Theis, Wannamaker).

Barring a big, out-of-nowhere signing, the way forward is to accumulate assets/draft capital by taking on shitty-but-short contracts to restock the pantry while developing the kids as much as possible. I did not foresee us being back here so soon.
If they went this route of clearing the decks, I'd be trying to sign younger free agents to see if the Celtics could recover some of their value. Dudes like Nerlens Noel, Furkan Korkmaz, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Marquese Chriss, Stanley Johnson.

Odds are low that they are able to hit on one of these guys, but odds probably not lower than hitting on a low first round pick a contender might give up to take a bad contract from them.

I think I'd first fire a big offer at Malcolm Brogdon. Milwaukee surely matches, but at least make them pay up for him.
 

PedroKsBambino

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So, who has a bad contract, picks, and motivation to clear spacer? Too bad Celts didn't know all this was going to happen when the Nets were in trading for cap space mode.

Houston must want to dump Shumpert, but they are likely too focused on how to get rid of Paul.
 

Apisith

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What’s happening with the Rockets is a shitshow, mostly coming down from our owner. He talks too much, loves the limelight.

Instead of realising that we ended the regular season 29-4 with the best d in the West, and spending some money to bring in 1-2 more rotation players, this dude is creating a disaster with his mouth.

Harden’s prime lasts for maybe 2 more years. We really have to go for it, especially with what’s happened to the Warriors.
 

TripleOT

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I'll take one middling year of Hayward and his expiring contract year over that ridiculous CP3 three year deal. That guy is a cancer, and his contract is a cancer.

Either Hayward get back to being a solid NBA starter, or Ainge can do something with that big expiring deal next summer (or ship him at the deadline).
 

TripleOT

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Is 30 games as a starter, plus the 19 playoff starts in helping the team to a couple of jumpers away from the Finals enough to evaluate Rozier as a starter?

30 Regular season starts, 14.5 ppg, 5.9 reb, 5 ast on 40/39.5% shooting, 3.8:1 ast/to
19 playoff starts, 16.5 ppg, 5.3 reb, 5.7 ast on 40/34.7% shooting, 4.6:1 ast/to.

If Rozier can shore up his garbage mid-range game, and if he can commit to playing defense up to his capability, he could be a decent starter. I'm guessing Ainge uses one of his firsts this year for a development PG, unless he can move up to get White.
 

RedOctober3829

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Is 30 games as a starter, plus the 19 playoff starts in helping the team to a couple of jumpers away from the Finals enough to evaluate Rozier as a starter?

30 Regular season starts, 14.5 ppg, 5.9 reb, 5 ast on 40/39.5% shooting, 3.8:1 ast/to
19 playoff starts, 16.5 ppg, 5.3 reb, 5.7 ast on 40/34.7% shooting, 4.6:1 ast/to.

If Rozier can shore up his garbage mid-range game, and if he can commit to playing defense up to his capability, he could be a decent starter. I'm guessing Ainge uses one of his firsts this year for a development PG, unless he can move up to get White.
I don't want anything to do with Terry Rozier long-term. He's just not that good and he's going to cost much more than what he's worth.
 

BigSoxFan

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Is 30 games as a starter, plus the 19 playoff starts in helping the team to a couple of jumpers away from the Finals enough to evaluate Rozier as a starter?

30 Regular season starts, 14.5 ppg, 5.9 reb, 5 ast on 40/39.5% shooting, 3.8:1 ast/to
19 playoff starts, 16.5 ppg, 5.3 reb, 5.7 ast on 40/34.7% shooting, 4.6:1 ast/to.

If Rozier can shore up his garbage mid-range game, and if he can commit to playing defense up to his capability, he could be a decent starter. I'm guessing Ainge uses one of his firsts this year for a development PG, unless he can move up to get White.
Problem is this is a very weak PG draft outside of the top 2. I’m fine not bringing Rozier back - don’t love his game - and would rather have a short-term option.
 

Cellar-Door

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It will be interesting to see from future leaks if Horford has a team with cap space picked out, or just knows he wants 4 years and a contender.
If the former, not much the Celtics can do.
If the latter, there are some interesting trade options:
Houston in a deal featuring Capela?
Clippers (what is coming back? Shamet? Robinson? Harrell? It would probably depend on how much cap they need to save
Bucks? -maybe a double S&T with Brogdan and us eating Snell's contract
 

HomeRunBaker

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If Horford leaves, is Vucevic someone the Celtics should be targeting? He's still only entering his age 29 season, averaged 21 and 12 last year with 4 assists.
Man, I don't see him as an Ainge-type player at all. We are only two years away from him losing his starting job to Bismack Biyumbo for his disinterest in defending anyone. Last year smells to me like a contract push was a huge motivation and I'd be petrified to pay Vucevic max-type money while expecting him to maintain that same motivation.
 

Captaincoop

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I agree with you on Paul. His "decline" in Houston is largely a product of the ball being in Harden's hands and not his. He is still a very very good player, fills a major need on our roster at PG while eliminating the logjam at the wing. In short, Paul is the better player who is a better fit over the next couple years than Hayward. I feel this is a win-win for both teams.



I'd imagine this is the type of stop-gap Ainge would be looking at if he was able to pull the trigger on a deal to move up to Garland. If no deal can be made I think he'd look to sign Rozier rather than bring in a veteran like Collison on a multi-year deal without a plan for the future.
I was thinking of Collison before we knew Al was on the way out. Knowing that, there's no reason to spend money on a middling veteran like that.

Thursday should be interesting.
 
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