Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

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TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

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I cannot get behind this. generational money != generational wisdom. Because one chooses not to be smart or evenly moderate about their approach to wealth building that doesn't mean the initial sum isn't generational.
Well said. 20 million is plenty to invest for your kids and live off of. I am so sure of that, I will happily demonstrate.

Now if you would just get me started...

*passes hat around*
 

the moops

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Seriously - the average American will make something like 1.5 million dollars in their lifetime. Just because people spend foolishly doesn't mean that 20 or 40 million is not generational money. Hell, there are folks that blow through 100's of millions and leave nothing for their kids.
 

Kliq

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Even if you aren't going to have enough money to set up a trust fund for your kid, even being able to pay to send your kid to a private school, or pay for their college education, is a huge advantage from someone's wealth that impacts the next generation.
 

HomeRunBaker

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agentPlayer is probably taking home $25MM after taxes, abent fees, etc.

That's not including lifestyle and family and hangers-on.

If that is all a player makes (i.e., injury) seems to me that it's likely that his kids will have to work for a living.
Correct. Not only isn't this $25m generational but we have data showing that this amount of money may not ever make it to this players children as they have 40-50 years of their post-NBA career to navigate...…...while many struggle with shredding themselves of the NBA lifestyle that comes with these contracts. It really is pretty naroow minded at best and ignorant at worst (my opinion, not a personal attack) to compare our own earning power to those of urban 20-something years olds who were not raised as we were nor live in a culture like we do. Asking them to live in basically poverty with career income of $1.5m is a ridiculous statement imo…..and you know I love you moops but this is just wrong.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, agree HRB. When you’re talking about generational wealth, you’re talking about what the default is. If you make $48M pre-tax, and have gotten used to an NBA lifestyle, and have 50 years of life left to pay for, the default is probably that your kids have comfortable lives and some money starting out.

When the number is $150M pre-tax, the default is more likely to be that even a high-end lifestyle is paid for by returns on assets, and your kids will be millionaires without working.

None of those outcomes are guaranteed in either case, and these are obviously amazing problems to have. , The starting number is very, very material to the expected outcomes, however.
 

johnmd20

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That column about how little NBA players keep sucks. How can you pretend like putting 18k in a 401k is a negative thing with regards to wealth? The escrow figure is also cockeyed and designed to make the numbers look significantly worse.

Anyway, the fact that people are continuing to argue that 48 million just isn't quite enough is really breathtaking. Nobody is saying you have to live like a pauper to save money if you've only made 48 million dollars. That's nonsense. An NBA player can live extraordinarily well and not have to spend every dollar made.

Just because someone can earn 100 million dollars and blow the money doesn't mean 48 million isn't generational wealth. It is literally generational wealth. Unless you blow the money. This isn't about culture, it's about 50 million dollars.
 

sezwho

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Yeah, agree HRB. When you’re talking about generational wealth, you’re talking about what the default is. If you make $48M pre-tax, and have gotten used to an NBA lifestyle, and have 50 years of life left to pay for, the default is probably that your kids have comfortable lives and some money starting out.

When the number is $150M pre-tax, the default is more likely to be that even a high-end lifestyle is paid for by returns on assets, and your kids will be millionaires without working.

None of those outcomes are guaranteed in either case, and these are obviously amazing problems to have. , The starting number is very, very material to the expected outcomes, however.
Thank goodness Antoine Walker is the exception, not the rule.

I also think that young players are getting better counsel through the NBAPA and the league in general so hopefully in a better place to be successful post career.

As a side note I wonder whether there is something to the brash confidence of the elite athlete that makes them feel they can overcome any obstacle and 'win', even in business. AKA What is the financial equivalent of Kyrie saying he'll cover Giannis?
 

lovegtm

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...
Anyway, the fact that people are continuing to argue that 48 million just isn't quite enough is really breathtaking. Nobody is saying you have to live like a pauper to save money if you've only made 48 million dollars. That's nonsense. An NBA player can live extraordinarily well and not have to spend every dollar made.
...
It's not particularly breathtaking, as long as you read what we're actually saying, and don't try to make this a moral crusade. $48M (about half that post-tax) is a metric fuck-ton of money, and your life will be really, really awesome (materially) as long as you have decent advice and no massive vices or family issues.

We are saying is that a) there are strong reasons a player who's earned $48M might want more and b) it's likely that in many cases his grandchildren and great-grandchildren won't be rich people, even if the player is moderately responsible.
 

johnmd20

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It's not particularly breathtaking, as long as you read what we're actually saying, and don't try to make this a moral crusade. $48M (about half that post-tax) is a metric fuck-ton of money, and your life will be really, really awesome (materially) as long as you have decent advice and no massive vices or family issues.

We are saying is that a) there are strong reasons a player who's earned $48M might want more and b) it's likely that in many cases his grandchildren and great-grandchildren won't be rich people, even if the player is moderately responsible.
Of course if you've made 48 million and you're still able bodied, you would want to make more. Who is arguing otherwise? If I was in Draymond's shoes, I would certainly try to keep playing for the insane dollar figures he's earning. Keep going Dray, all good with me.

But if a person earns 48 million dollars, 46 million in the last three years, (even if Draymond spent almost 3 million dollars a YEAR on incidentals, an insane lifestyle, he should still have 15 million in the bank, or more if it was invested correctly) he SHOULD be good to go for the rest of his life.
 

Jimbodandy

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Can we move this thread to V&N and start another one about the offseason?

For a guy who has made 48M, the chance to lock down more than double that with one swipe of the pen is worth more than to a guy who has already made much, much, more than that (like Lebron or KD). The latter guys are guys for whom another $100M is adding to the money pile. For Dray it's about tripling his lifetime earnings, which is why he might jump on it, rather than tease another 15% and risk every dime.

That was my understanding of the original point. Whether we would shovel shit and club baby seals for 48M isn't really material.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That column about how little NBA players keep sucks. How can you pretend like putting 18k in a 401k is a negative thing with regards to wealth? The escrow figure is also cockeyed and designed to make the numbers look significantly worse.

Anyway, the fact that people are continuing to argue that 48 million just isn't quite enough is really breathtaking. Nobody is saying you have to live like a pauper to save money if you've only made 48 million dollars. That's nonsense. An NBA player can live extraordinarily well and not have to spend every dollar made.

Just because someone can earn 100 million dollars and blow the money doesn't mean 48 million isn't generational wealth. It is literally generational wealth. Unless you blow the money. This isn't about culture, it's about 50 million dollars.
You’re right this convo isn’t about 50 million dollars......it’s about the 25 million number which is an enormous difference when discussing generational wealth.

$25m is a shit ton of money but we KNOW that there is a significant risk of ruin for professional athletes in their 20’s who retire early with this kind of money.....much less for generational wealth.
 
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InstaFace

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We are saying is that a) there are strong reasons a player who's earned $48M might want more and b) it's likely that in many cases his grandchildren and great-grandchildren won't be rich people, even if the player is moderately responsible.
...right, which is pretty much the definition of what "generational wealth" actually means, since it's got to cross, ya know, generations. johnmd's logic seems to be "that's a fuckton of money, therefore it is 'generational wealth'."

Could you or I make it work? Sure. Suppose you end up with $25M after taxes, sitting in a brokerage account. You target a 5-6% nominal investment return with ~2% going to inflation, maybe .5% to money management, and plan to take out ~3% a year for living expenses. That'd be ~$750k gross, less LTCG (20%) so $600k net => $50k / month to spend. If you're a just-now-former baller living in some 8-figure mansion, that $50k goes up in smoke real quick. Got 10 cars, because you thought your NBA career was going to last forever? Gone. Jewelry, travel, partying, etc. $50k / month is really not that much by pro-athlete standards, even if you're generally a low-maintenance kind of guy.

Now instead let's say you try to cut that back to $30k/month, so that you can actually build some principal appreciation in. THEN maybe you grow the pot big enough that your kids can start their adult lives off with private school, a free college education, and some help getting a place and covering some ordinary expenses as they settle into a career. But how many kids? Let's say you don't grow the principal faster than inflation, and so you end up with $50k/month in 2019 dollars going to, say, 5 kids. An extra $10k/month would have fucking rocked when I was 22 years old, but it's not quite what I associate with "trust fund money". And then you need to consider that your kids will likely reach adulthood while Daddy Baller is still around and kicking and quite accustomed to his lifestyle - enjoying his spending, even if he's not overspending. So maybe for a while he cuts back a bit and the kids have to take less. Or, god forbid, he dips into principal (which makes it by-definition not generational wealth).

All of those numbers assume you're not getting advice that helps you put it into an irrevocable grantor trust and avoid a good chunk of taxes. And of course, trust executors need to get paid too, etc. But generally we're not talking about a pot of money that is going to make things even cushy for the kids, nevermind the grandkids.
 

Devizier

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As a side note I wonder whether there is something to the brash confidence of the elite athlete that makes them feel they can overcome any obstacle and 'win', even in business.
That is, IIRC how players typically “blow it”. Lots of bad investments and not just scammy ones. Just an inappropriate consideration of risk.
 

luckiestman

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agentPlayer is probably taking home $25MM after taxes, abent fees, etc.

That's not including lifestyle and family and hangers-on.

If that is all a player makes (i.e., injury) seems to me that it's likely that his kids will have to work for a living.

25 million can take out 500k a year and still Haven 25 million with minimal risk.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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25 million can take out 500k a year and still Haven 25 million with minimal risk.
According to a 2016 study of 50 NBA players, the average participant spent over $500K a year in expenses. Average. Over $50K a year just in clothes. https://clark.com/personal-finance-credit/what-the-average-nba-player-spends-in-a-month/

Guy who has made $48MM probably is way over average. He doesn't have a $25MM nest egg to invest at 2%. That's not even including his "investments."

$48MM could be generational wealth but my guess is NBA players are a lot like powerball winners. It goes fast.
 

luckiestman

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According to a 2016 study of 50 NBA players, the average participant spent over $500K a year in expenses. Average. Over $50K a year just in clothes. https://clark.com/personal-finance-credit/what-the-average-nba-player-spends-in-a-month/

Guy who has made $48MM probably is way over average. He doesn't have a $25MM nest egg to invest at 2%. That's not even including his "investments."

$48MM could be generational wealth but my guess is NBA players are a lot like powerball winners. It goes fast.

I agree with you. My opinion is still that $25M is generational money. Nothing is generational money if you try to Brewster’s Millions it.
 

DJnVa

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This is my favorite thread ever.

if you somehow spend $25 million when you know your career will likely end in your mid to late 30s and have nothing left you've made bad choices. Yes, there are exceptions to that (investment goes bad or whatever) but come on people.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I agree with you. My opinion is still that $25M is generational money. Nothing is generational money if you try to Brewster’s Millions it.
Yes. To be clear on my position we are referring specifically to what is considered generational money for a young professional athlete and not what is considered generational money for your average person.
 

Nick Kaufman

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It seems to me that the argument of those saying that 48 million isn't generational money is that essentially NBA players are idiot savants who just know basketball, but have no money management skills. This actually maybe true for some (many? most? ) players, but to the extent that is true, the truth of the matter is if you spend without any constraints or in a misguided attempt to keep up with someone else's definition of what a NBA player's lifestyle is supposed to be, then the problem isn't the money you are making but the fact that you cannot manage money. In that case, it really doesn't matter how much money you make over your career because you will go through all of it. In that sense, Draymond doesn't need a new contract, he needs an intense money management seminar.

Other than that, let's assume that Draymond Green blows his knee tomorrow without having signed an extension. Just his iphone contact list should be worth millions of dollars in future earnings. Draymond could try a career in media, cash his fame in a couple of media opportunities, try his hand as a coach or in some team's front office, he could try his luck abroad in some sort of basketball capacity and he has a shit ton of people who can open the doors for him, give him opportunities and so on. Now, granted, if he's a mouth drooler he can squander all of this away, but again, spare me the tears about Draymond's predicament.

The vast majority of us would kill to be in his position right now. He just needs some common sense money management and a decent head on his shoulders and he should be more than fine. And if doesn't make enough money to allow his children not to work a day in their life, that's good for them; being a spoiled trust fund baby isn't a good thing to be. The fact that they will go to good schools and have good social connections is a pretty good foundation for a good life.
 

lovegtm

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This entire discussion can just be summed up as "everyone agrees; one side is being descriptive and the other is being normative." Agree it should go to V&N.
 

Kliq

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Nothing more to add other than that over the last ten years all of the sports leagues, but especially the NBA, have introduced programs to help players manage their wealth and understand how much money they actually have, and how they should spend it. I think you see a lot more players, especially the elite ones on max contracts, investing more like a Wall Street professional than a Powerball winner. I don't have any statistics on me, but I would imagine that the trope of NBA players blowing all of their money and ending up broke might be a bit outdated.

In the post-Jordan era, with LeBron picking up the mantle, a lot of these guys strive to be thought of as not just basketball players, but moguls and respected investors and businessmen outside of basketball. This should be known as the Junior Bridgeman route. Maybe there are still some guys who will blow all their money on frivolous things, but a lot of these guys are highly motivated to be viewed as more than just a basketball players.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Nothing more to add other than that over the last ten years all of the sports leagues, but especially the NBA, have introduced programs to help players manage their wealth and understand how much money they actually have, and how they should spend it. I think you see a lot more players, especially the elite ones on max contracts, investing more like a Wall Street professional than a Powerball winner. I don't have any statistics on me, but I would imagine that the trope of NBA players blowing all of their money and ending up broke might be a bit outdated.

In the post-Jordan era, with LeBron picking up the mantle, a lot of these guys strive to be thought of as not just basketball players, but moguls and respected investors and businessmen outside of basketball. This should be known as the Junior Bridgeman route. Maybe there are still some guys who will blow all their money on frivolous things, but a lot of these guys are highly motivated to be viewed as more than just a basketball players.
Y'all are really cavalier about money management. Put yourself in the players' shoes. You're young; you spend 4-8 hours a day on your body; neither you nor anyone in your family likely have any financial background; you have a ton of people asking you for stuff all the time; and you're trying to figure out how to invest 7 or 8 figures?

Yes these guys spend a lot. But they are also often scammed because they have no idea (and I have no idea how they'd do it) how to find someone competent and who they can trust. Think about KG's $77MM lawsuit against his accountant: http://www.startribune.com/kevin-garnett-s-77-million-lawsuit-a-stark-warning-for-other-pro-athletes/494047011/. Think of all the other bad investment stories we've heard (other stories in the article). Think about Lonzo Ball.

In the KG story, the NFL reports that somewhere around 1/2 of players surveyed have had significant investment losses.

Just like most of us, the athletes are looking for somewhere to put their money where they can earn a comfortable amount and not think about it. However, instead of doing that with $500K, they are doing it with $5MM or $50MM. That's pretty tempting and it's no wonder athletes lose a lot of their money.

In fact, I'm surprised the pro sports unions don't try to require deferred compensation in contracts.
 

TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

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Jesus fucking christ, the question at issue wasn't "what will NBA players do with the money?" It was a simple question of whether 25M is generational wealth; a definitional question.

And it is: you and your children after you are gone (presuming you don't go full Cromartie and have 8 of 'em) can earn enough off interest (without even growing the principle) to live comfortably off it.

Again, I will happily demonstrate this if you all will chip in and give me 25M dollars.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jesus fucking christ, the question at issue wasn't "what will NBA players do with the money?" It was a simple question of whether 25M is generational wealth; a definitional question.

And it is: you and your children after you are gone (presuming you don't go full Cromartie and have 8 of 'em) can earn enough off interest (without even growing the principle) to live comfortably off it.

Again, I will happily demonstrate this if you all will chip in and give me 25M dollars.
LOL....no, that wasn’t the question but good job fitting it to your narrative.
 

TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

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My only "narrative" in this thread is getting you cheap bastards to give me 25M dollars.

There are 2 questions being conflated and that's causing people to talk past one another:

1) Is 25M generational wealth?

The answer is undeniably "yes," but someone earlier in the thread asserted it was not and that prompted rebuttals.

2) Is 25M generational wealth if you are Draymond?

This one kinda is silly as we have no idea how Draymond chooses to live and whether passing on a bunch of money is a good/bad idea for him.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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My only "narrative" in this thread is getting you cheap bastards to give me 25M dollars.
Right.....which isn’t the topic we are discussing.

The topic isn’t what Joe Schmo off the street will do with $25m (not personal, most of us here are Joe Schmo’s relative to the discussion)......it is what mostly urban 25-olds will do with $25m over the next century. This isn’t only about Draymond.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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1) Is 25M generational wealth?

The answer is undeniably "yes," but someone earlier in the thread asserted it was not and that prompted rebuttals.
I believe the first mention of "generational wealth," where HRB notes that DG may have passed on a bunch of $ (up to $70MM) in order to sign a 4/$100MM contract that was "generational financial security." I tihnk we're all comfortable in saying that $100MM should be "generational" under any definition of the term.

I believe the first person to raise a question about $48MM was Nighthob, who wrote, "Not to mention that after you subtract taxes and agent fees, that $48 million isn’t really generational money. Especially given the likely lifestyle expenses that go with being a twenty-something professional basketball player." (emphasis added).

take that $48MM, subtract it to $25MM or even $20MM after taxes and agent fees; subtract another, say $1M a year in living and training expenses, subtracts payments for house/cars/vacations/bling, subtract an average amount for loss investments/being scammed - and you're surprised that a few of us don't think that $48MM is going to provide money to the player's kids and grandkids and their kids?
 

InstaFace

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that is a fair summary. I went to some lengths to lay out why I agree with HRB and lovegym that his current $48M isn't "generational wealth" given Draymond's context. We all agree that the 4/$100 contract gets him to that point of never having to worry about money again unless he goes truly 'Toine-level stupid with it.

The question of "how do they figure out who to trust with their money" would be a terrifying one in their situation. Among every category of person who has the kind of money they have, their vulnerability is probably second only to lottery winners. At least they know that if they're making their own decisions, they're not going to screw themselves on purpose, just by accident. Whereas they look like a mark to every smooth-talking con man. "Sports-star money management" would be an interesting General Sports thread, or perhaps Root of All Evil thread, and I'm glad that NBA players are now getting better advice and education... but it's never going to be something that's fully solved.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's not even smooth-talking con men. The people who get the ear of the athletes (and their immediate family) aren't generally the people we would consider money management "experts." The people in the players' orbit - generally the ones that people trust - I'm sure have a ton of great sounding ideas that just need some financial backing. I mean look at Lonzo Ball, somehow he gave an ex-felon the ability to draw down large sums of his money.

Every so often we get threads started here about normal, every day educated people who have no idea what to do with their money or how to select a money manager. It must be exponentially more difficult for an athlete, particularly given the size of the investments.

It seems to me that one-stop shops like Klutch or Boras might be the best way to go for athletes but I guess that if the athlete doesn't have a close relationship without someone high up in the firm they might balk at giving one firm agent fees and all of their money to manage.
 

Devizier

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Honestly, they should park the majority in safe index/treasury vehicles and entrust an accountant only with what is needed for annual expenses, etc. Also don’t buy or invest in capital intensive businesses (e.g. car washes, restaurants).
 

lovegtm

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Honestly, they should park the majority in safe index/treasury vehicles and entrust an accountant only with what is needed for annual expenses, etc. Also don’t buy or invest in capital intensive businesses (e.g. car washes, restaurants).
The thing is, the problem is epistemological: how does the player know that he should trust Devizier’s advice?

This sounds trivial, but for people who make money without doing much business (musicians, athletes etc), it’s a very real problem. You haven’t built wealth by incrementally manipulating more of it: wealth just happened to you for unrelated reasons. There’s a lot of implicit know-how that is gained in the process of making money using money and its byproducts.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Honestly, they should park the majority in safe index/treasury vehicles and entrust an accountant only with what is needed for annual expenses, etc. Also don’t buy or invest in capital intensive businesses (e.g. car washes, restaurants).
It isn’t even about investments to me. The two professional athletes I’ve known over the past decade in the NBA and NFL spent (logical guess) around half of their entire rookie contract/bonus to purchase things that their family didn’t have and/or allow family to retire (in this case, his father).

Money goes quick when you are trying to keep up with the Joneses but it goes quicker when you’re trying to initially get your family and those who are most important to you to where the Joneses are. It feels to me that those on the other side of my argument are failing to recognize much of this initial wealth is going toward taking care of the generstion(s) before you first.
 

Nick Kaufman

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FWIW, I would go even as far as saying that no matter your background, coming up with millions of dollars is a hell of a challenge to manage. Right now for example, there's a worldwide capital glut and even smart money has trouble finding investments with decent returns. Beyond that even people who you would think would have the knowhow and the experience to manage money have been swindled. Those are the kind of people who were taken in by Bernie Madoff for example. Just by virtue of having money, you become a target for thieves and scammers of all levels. It's hard to find people to trust. So yeah, it's a blessing and a curse.

But to me that doesn't change the fact that any way you dice it, the money professional athletes make are enough to provide hem and their loved ones a great life, better than 99% of the population will dream of.

Ther challenges are.more of a money management problem rather than earning more money problem.
 

nighthob

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I believe the first mention of "generational wealth," where HRB notes that DG may have passed on a bunch of $ (up to $70MM) in order to sign a 4/$100MM contract that was "generational financial security." I tihnk we're all comfortable in saying that $100MM should be "generational" under any definition of the term.

I believe the first person to raise a question about $48MM was Nighthob, who wrote, "Not to mention that after you subtract taxes and agent fees, that $48 million isn’t really generational money. Especially given the likely lifestyle expenses that go with being a twenty-something professional basketball player." (emphasis added).

take that $48MM, subtract it to $25MM or even $20MM after taxes and agent fees; subtract another, say $1M a year in living and training expenses, subtracts payments for house/cars/vacations/bling, subtract an average amount for loss investments/being scammed - and you're surprised that a few of us don't think that $48MM is going to provide money to the player's kids and grandkids and their kids?
I mean you would think that people would just read the tales of woe that happen to people that win $20 million+ in the lottery. It goes fast when you're not born into it, and sometimes even when you are.

Money goes quick when you are trying to keep up with the Joneses but it goes quicker when you’re trying to initially get your family and those who are most important to you to where the Joneses are. It feels to me that those on the other side of my argument are failing to recognize much of this initial wealth is going toward taking care of the generstion(s) before you first.
In the lottery horror stories this is pretty standardly the way the road to (financial) hell is paved. The winners first try to take care of their friends and family, pay off their debts, their mortgages, get them houses, etc..
 

benhogan

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It isn’t even about investments to me. The two professional athletes I’ve known over the past decade in the NBA and NFL spent (logical guess) around half of their entire rookie contract/bonus to purchase things that their family didn’t have and/or allow family to retire (in this case, his father).

Money goes quick when you are trying to keep up with the Joneses but it goes quicker when you’re trying to initially get your family and those who are most important to you to where the Joneses are. It feels to me that those on the other side of my argument are failing to recognize much of this initial wealth is going toward taking care of the generstion(s) before you first.
This is a fact of life and keeping up with Jones isn't really good enough for those close enough.

and when he gets married he'll need to start writing checks to his new wife's brother, sister, parents and their friends.
 

moondog80

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Right now for example, there's a worldwide capital glut and even smart money has trouble finding investments with decent returns.

If you already have a crazy amount of money, why do you need a decent return? Why wouldn't you be massively risk-averse at that point?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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As a huge Bobby Knight fan who followed his return to coaching at Texas Tech closely it pains my heart to hear that Andre Emmett, star of Knight's first-year team at Tech leading in them to the NCAA tournament, was shot to death at age 37 in Dallas. He had been starring in The Big 3 this summer after playing nearly two decades professionally overseas with a couple cups of coffee in the NBA. RIP Andre.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
38,198
Not sure anyone really expected otherwise, but the Nets have confirmed that they expect KD will miss entire season.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
4,425
Zach Lowe with an epic rant on the futility of the Knicks on his pod with Kevin Arnovitz yesterday, just cathartic to listen to.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
20,818
Saskatoon Canada
2 quick points about NBA and money

1. Talking to guys that have been G-league two way guys, or in the days of ten day contracts there is huge pressure to "dress like a pro" to the point some veteran guys think a team can't win unless the players dress in expensive clothes and act like they belong. Some of these guys say if the get to the league it is big pay raise and they have to spend almost all of it on clothes, restaurants, etc. There is often a "rookie meal" etc where they buy food and drinks for the other guys on the team and that can cost you your whole check. Guys that balk and try to save money can be ostracized, called bad team mates and see vets go to coaches complaining about chemistry.

2. There are some former name guys bouncing around low level pro leagues trying to make some cash because they are busted.
 
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lovegtm

Member
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Apr 30, 2013
5,261
Kiev, Ukraine
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