Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

HomeRunBaker

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From Woj: “With free agency looming next summer, three-time All-Star Draymond Green has agreed to a four-year, $100M maximum contract extension with Golden State, agent Rich Paul of Klutch Sports tells ESPN.”

Seems really low...that’s not a max.
It’s the max he could as an extension as he was under contract this year for $18k.

I don’t mind this if I’m Draymond knowing that the Warriors weren’t going to offer him max next summer so while in theory he left $70m on the table......the reality is that he probably left closer to $30-35m on the table in exchange for generational financial security. His lifetime earnings are only $48m so a Durant-like injury to him could have been devastating.
 

lovegtm

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It’s the max he could as an extension as he was under contract this year for $18k.

I don’t mind this if I’m Draymond knowing that the Warriors weren’t going to offer him max next summer so while in theory he left $70m on the table......the reality is that he probably left closer to $30-35m on the table in exchange for generational financial security. His lifetime earnings are only $48m so a Durant-like injury to him could have been devastating.
Ah you’re right, my bad, forgot the extension rules as opposed to FA. Makes sense for him, given play style and age.
 

Nick Kaufman

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It’s the max he could as an extension as he was under contract this year for $18k.

I don’t mind this if I’m Draymond knowing that the Warriors weren’t going to offer him max next summer so while in theory he left $70m on the table......the reality is that he probably left closer to $30-35m on the table in exchange for generational financial security. His lifetime earnings are only $48m so a Durant-like injury to him could have been devastating.
Ain't that the truth. How can a man go through his remaining years with the remains of the piddling $48 million he's earned so far?

In a related note, in order for me to reach 48 million lifetime earnings, I need to work something close to a 1,000 years, so I better find someone to offer me a contract extension before I suffer a Durant type of injury.
 

Nick Kaufman

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FWIW, for anyone interested, by my own calculations, in order for me to live the rest of my life without having to work a single day, I think I need something between 5 and 6 million. Half of it for day to day expenses with a fairly comfortable living standard and the other half to pay the medical bills when the time comes to face the inevitable.

And on that optimistic note, make sure to enjoy your Saturday!
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ain't that the truth. How can a man go through his remaining years with the remains of the piddling $48 million he's earned so far?

In a related note, in order for me to reach 48 million lifetime earnings, I need to work something close to a 1,000 years, so I better find someone to offer me a contract extension before I suffer a Durant type of injury.
Nick Kaufman clearly is failing to live the Draymond lifestyle.
 

nighthob

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Not to mention that after you subtract taxes and agent fees, that $48 million isn’t really generational money. Especially given the likely lifestyle expenses that go with being a twenty-something professional basketball player.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Not to mention that after you subtract taxes and agent fees, that $48 million isn’t really generational money. Especially given the likely lifestyle expenses that go with being a twenty-something professional basketball player.
It's a tall order kimosabe, but if you give me whatever's remaining from Dramond Greens 48 mil, I think I will be able to manage it. :p

FWIW, and I am talking from the top of my head here, studies have shown that human happiness explodes as earnings increase to $30k a year, then marginally improve until you reach something like $70k. Once you get beyond that point, money doesn't make a lick of difference to your well being.

That's a long way of saying that Draymond's lifestyle you are referring to is basically keeping up with the joneses - which to be fair is what a lot of affluent people do.

Sorry for the tangent, but hearing that a person would be devastated if he doesn't get a max contract after earning $48 mil wakes up my inner communist. And I am possibly the furthest thing from a communist you ll find.
 

nighthob

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His effective tax rate out in Cali (accounting for all federal, state, county, and municipal taxes, sales taxes, etc.) likely pushes 50%,. Add in the 15% agent fees and his living the high life for a few years, and he has more than enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life. But he wouldn’t leave his kids rich enough to do what they want with the rest of their lives.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's a tall order kimosabe, but if you give me whatever's remaining from Dramond Greens 48 mil, I think I will be able to manage it. :p

FWIW, and I am talking from the top of my head here, studies have shown that human happiness explodes as earnings increase to $30k a year, then marginally improve until you reach something like $70k. Once you get beyond that point, money doesn't make a lick of difference to your well being.

That's a long way of saying that Draymond's lifestyle you are referring to is basically keeping up with the joneses - which to be fair is what a lot of affluent people do.

Sorry for the tangent, but hearing that a person would be devastated if he doesn't get a max contract after earning $48 mil wakes up my inner communist. And I am possibly the furthest thing from a communist you ll find.
It’s all relative and has nothing to do with what you and I are comfortable living on. Draymond will have many opportunities to earn down the road if he’s smart. Having said that, if he’s only about to get a Boogie-like contract due to injury then YES passing up $100m would absolutely be devastating in relative terms.
 

Big John

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His effective tax rate out in Cali (accounting for all federal, state, county, and municipal taxes, sales taxes, etc.) likely pushes 50%,. Add in the 15% agent fees and his living the high life for a few years, and he has more than enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life. But he wouldn’t leave his kids rich enough to do what they want with the rest of their lives.
NBA agent fees are capped at 4% of player contracts. They can get more on endorsements, but that's negotiable. Here's an article on what Steph Curry pays (44%).
 

nighthob

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Which means that Green likely actually made around half his $48 million, less what he spent on the high life, which adds up quickly as everyone hires their buddies to hang out with them (that’s not an NBA player thing, that’s a universal human tendency, read the horror stories of lottery winners that won huge jackpots for another example). So, yeah, when offered generational wealth most guys jump on it with both feet.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Carmelo has been much discussed everywhere this week. NBA Radio every day, ESPN every night, etc etc. Is he really not going to resurface in the NBA again? Does he have any potential suitors?

Charlotte with MJ (Melo is a Jordan Brand guy)?

Portland to play the 4 allowing Collins to play his best role off the bench?
 

Smokey Joe

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Carmelo has been much discussed everywhere this week. NBA Radio every day, ESPN every night, etc etc. Is he really not going to resurface in the NBA again? Does he have any potential suitors?

Charlotte with MJ (Melo is a Jordan Brand guy)?

Portland to play the 4 allowing Collins to play his best role off the bench?
Clearly, there is no other significant news now. I cannot see any team taking a chance on Melo with the possible exception of Charlotte. Jordan brand, attempt to pump up attendance in an otherwise uninspiring season.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Which means that Green likely actually made around half his $48 million, less what he spent on the high life, which adds up quickly as everyone hires their buddies to hang out with them (that’s not an NBA player thing, that’s a universal human tendency, read the horror stories of lottery winners that won huge jackpots for another example). So, yeah, when offered generational wealth most guys jump on it with both feet.
I dont get the impression Draymond does that. Take it FWIW, but a colleague of mine frequently clubs with Draymond. He grew up with Green's stylist, and the stylist often goes out clubbing with Green. While my colleague doesn't interact with the group much - hes happy to just get into high end clubs and get the VIP access - it doesn't seem to me that Green is paying much out of pocket to hang out with some of these guys. I'm sure he pays for plenty of the bills, but I don't think Green is cut from the same cloth as some of the guys you're thinking of.
 

Kliq

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Carmelo has been much discussed everywhere this week. NBA Radio every day, ESPN every night, etc etc. Is he really not going to resurface in the NBA again? Does he have any potential suitors?

Charlotte with MJ (Melo is a Jordan Brand guy)?

Portland to play the 4 allowing Collins to play his best role off the bench?
I've noticed this as well, I could of swore he was retired because last night NBA TV was just playing a marathon of Carmelo's best games.

I think the demise of his career is somewhat fascinating; an elite NBA player that found himself completely unable to remain in the league as he got older. I guess it is similar to what happened to Iverson, although with Iverson it was clear that due to his size he was going to be such a problem on defense it was hard to justify playing him; unlike Melo who is theoretically big enough to play PF. For whatever reason, Melo wasn't able to adapt his game to be a serviceable old-head the way Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade were able to. Unlike Kobe, he hasn't found a team that doesn't care about winning to enable him to be a shameless gunner.

I think he is still in the news because his skill-set would make you think that he would be able to easily adapt into being a role player. The problem is that mentally, he isn't there. I remember after he was released by Houston, Chris Vernon and KOC were talking about possible landing spots for Melo, and KOC was high on the idea that Melo could work as a PF that could work a screen-and-fade and be an effective role player. Vernon kind of cut him off and said "Yeah that would be great, but he hasn't set a screen in his entire life."
 

benhogan

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Carmelo has been much discussed everywhere this week. NBA Radio every day, ESPN every night, etc etc. Is he really not going to resurface in the NBA again? Does he have any potential suitors?

Charlotte with MJ (Melo is a Jordan Brand guy)?

Portland to play the 4 allowing Collins to play his best role off the bench?
He's done.

Did he trust the Knicks to build around him or did he do a bad job recruiting? What was his failing?

Frankly, I was never a huge fan of his pro game, his defense always sucked. His team highlight will always be 2003 and for that, I'll forever be indebted.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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Which means that Green likely actually made around half his $48 million, less what he spent on the high life, which adds up quickly as everyone hires their buddies to hang out with them (that’s not an NBA player thing, that’s a universal human tendency, read the horror stories of lottery winners that won huge jackpots for another example). So, yeah, when offered generational wealth most guys jump on it with both feet.
Now he can feed his family. I was getting worried about that.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He's done.

Did he trust the Knicks to build around him or did he do a bad job recruiting? What was his failing?

Frankly, I was never a huge fan of his pro game, his defense always sucked. His team highlight will always be 2003 and for that, I'll forever be indebted.
Melo was awesome in Denver and with Team USA. I will never place full blame on Melo for those first 3-4 years in NY when he was in his prime and the Dolan Dysfunction manifested itself. You'll never see star players exert energy defensively for lottery teams.....let's not forget Pierce pre-Big 3 when his commitment was questioned. I was never a super Melo fan but he was certainly treated unfairly by those blaming him for what happened in NY when much if not all was not in his control.
 

nighthob

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I've noticed this as well, I could of swore he was retired because last night NBA TV was just playing a marathon of Carmelo's best games.

I think the demise of his career is somewhat fascinating; an elite NBA player that found himself completely unable to remain in the league as he got older. I guess it is similar to what happened to Iverson, although with Iverson it was clear that due to his size he was going to be such a problem on defense it was hard to justify playing him; unlike Melo who is theoretically big enough to play PF. For whatever reason, Melo wasn't able to adapt his game to be a serviceable old-head the way Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade were able to. Unlike Kobe, he hasn't found a team that doesn't care about winning to enable him to be a shameless gunner.
I wish people would stop saying this about Iverson, he basically had the longest career of any of the sub 6 footers in NBA history. He was an effective NBA player at the age that most guys his size were done, and didn't really fall off the cliff until he was 33. And for little guys once the quickness goes so do they. Which is why so many of them are essentially out of the NBA after the age of 30.
 

Kliq

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I wish people would stop saying this about Iverson, he basically had the longest career of any of the sub 6 footers in NBA history. He was an effective NBA player at the age that most guys his size were done, and didn't really fall off the cliff until he was 33. And for little guys once the quickness goes so do they. Which is why so many of them are essentially out of the NBA after the age of 30.
What did I say though that wasn't true? I didn't say Iverson didn't have a remarkable career given his size, just that due to his size, he was unable to go into more of a role-player role the way Pierce, Johnson and Wade did. So like Melo, he kind of fell off a cliff and that was it.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Tying a few conversations together — for fun — here's a look at the on-court impact over their careers of some of the guys discussed on this page (as measured by career net on-off per 100 possessions):

LeBron James (control sample)
+11.7 reg. season
+10.2 playoffs

Carmelo Anthony
+2.2 reg. season
-1.5 playoffs

Dwyane Wade
+5.0 reg. season
+3.3 playoffs

Paul Pierce
+6.3 reg. season
+0.1 playoffs

Allen Iverson
+3.9 reg. season
-9.7 playoffs

Draymond Green
+10.4 reg. season
+14.5 playoffs
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For whatever reason, Melo wasn't able to adapt his game to be a serviceable old-head the way Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson or Dwyane Wade were able to.
Or Vince Carter, whom I referencing only because I heard on the radio today that (i) he signed an extension and (ii) when he plays in 2020, he will be the first NBA player to play in 4 decades.

Amazing reinvention.
 

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Whats the NBA "Meal money" like? Too lazy to look it up....maybe it was baseball or football, or BB but basically i think I remember meal money being like a middle class salary. I seem to recall thinking I could live "well" (maybe @Nick Kaufman 70kish) on just the per deim.

Plus doesnt the pro sports have a decent retirment plan? (like you play x years or x games and you get 30k per year for the rest of your life?) And i know I heard recently how NBA medical insurance improved for retired players. It might not be "good" but its certainly substantionally better then a large portion of the population gets.

Be interesting to see what "retirement" looks like in all the major sports.

EDIT
Ok googled it.
$133 a day meal money for BB.

Not bad. Plus a prettty good retirement at 62 especially for someone like Draymond who will have around 10 years of service time(so 200k at age 62) when he retires.
 
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InstaFace

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What did I say though that wasn't true? I didn't say Iverson didn't have a remarkable career given his size, just that due to his size, he was unable to go into more of a role-player role the way Pierce, Johnson and Wade did. So like Melo, he kind of fell off a cliff and that was it.
Iverson had 38 career Defensive win shares, to his 61 offensive WS. From age 24 to 28, he had the same number of DWS as he had OWS (18.8). Win Shares isn't perfect, but you underrate his defense severely. Dude averaged 2 steals a game for his entire career and was all-hustle, balls-to-the-wall, Marcus Smart style.
 

Kliq

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Steals and defensive win shares imo, are really poor measures of defensive impact and are often accumulated by players who played the most minutes (which Iverson almost always did). Iverson has admitted himself that he was a bad defensive player; he was too small to guard larger players and also wasn't a true PG, so he always had to be paired with a tall PG that could guard opposing 2s; which is why Eric Snow had such a prominent NBA career.
 

ConigliarosPotential

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Or Vince Carter, whom I referencing only because I heard on the radio today that (i) he signed an extension and (ii) when he plays in 2020, he will be the first NBA player to play in 4 decades.

Amazing reinvention.
I'm pretty stoked to have Vince back in the ATL for next season - by all accounts he was a great teammate and mentor to the kids in addition to being surprisingly competent on the court, and even if the latter is less true in this upcoming season, his locker room presence is huge on such a young team.
 

Kliq

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The turn-around of Vince Carter going from basically the epitome of a selfish, me-first, never-won-anything "superstar" to this extremely respected old veteran that is an amazing teammate and mentor, was an unexpected event of the 2010s.
 

cheech13

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Udonis Haslem is returning to the Heat for a 17th season. If you had told me that Haslem retired five years ago I absolutely would have believed you. Had no idea he was still kicking around down in Miami.
 

DrewDawg

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Udonis Haslem is returning to the Heat for a 17th season. If you had told me that Haslem retired five years ago I absolutely would have believed you. Had no idea he was still kicking around down in Miami.
He's played 40 games total the last 3 season. Crazy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The turn-around of Vince Carter going from basically the epitome of a selfish, me-first, never-won-anything "superstar" to this extremely respected old veteran that is an amazing teammate and mentor, was an unexpected event of the 2010s.
I always found the old Carter reputation to be fascinating. Everything I had heard about him when I lived in NC was that he was always a great teammate who always competed. He never won anything in Toronto due to his best teammates being guys like Alvin Williams, Antonio Davis, Donyell Marshall, and Morris Peterson.
 
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The Gray Eagle

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There's never been a single NBA season without at least one of these guys playing:
Dolph Schayes, John Havlicek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kevin Willis, and Vince Carter.

Some of them overlapped a bunch of seasons too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There's never been a single NBA season without at least one of these guys playing:
Dolph Schayes, John Havlicek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kevin Willis, and Vince Carter.

Some of them overlapped a bunch of seasons too.
Can we now nickname him Kevin Bacon?
 

Devizier

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Fun one!

Vince Carter (Dirk Nowitzki works until tip off next season)
Buck Williams
Elvin Hayes
Nate Thurmond
Dolph Schayes

I was trying to get it to less than five, but I don't think its possible. The tough part is linking the 60s-80s or 70s-90s.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Fun one!

Vince Carter (Dirk Nowitzki works until tip off next season)
Buck Williams
Elvin Hayes
Nate Thurmond
Dolph Schayes

I was trying to get it to less than five, but I don't think its possible. The tough part is linking the 60s-80s or 70s-90s.
Yeah, I don't think you can get it to 4. I was really close with the following . . . .

Schayes (1949-50 to 1963-64)
Silas (1964-65 to 1979-80)
Mahorn (1979-80 to 1998-1999).
Vince (1998-99 to present)

But it turned out that Mahorn played one year in Italy.
 

Sam Ray Not

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KD doesn't think the Warriors mishandled his injury.

“Hell, no. How can you blame [the Warriors]? Hell, no,” Durant told Yahoo Sports. “I heard the Warriors pressured me into getting back. Nobody never said a word to me during rehab as I was coming back. It was only me and [director of sports medicine and performance] Rick [Celebrini] working out every day. Right when the series started, I targeted Game 5. Hell, nah. It just happened. It’s basketball. S--- happens. Nobody was responsible for it. It was just the game. We just need to move on from that s--- because I’m going to be back playing.”
 

DrewDawg

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KD doesn't think the Warriors mishandled his injury.

“Hell, no. How can you blame [the Warriors]? Hell, no,” Durant told Yahoo Sports. “I heard the Warriors pressured me into getting back. Nobody never said a word to me during rehab as I was coming back. It was only me and [director of sports medicine and performance] Rick [Celebrini] working out every day. Right when the series started, I targeted Game 5. Hell, nah. It just happened. It’s basketball. S--- happens. Nobody was responsible for it. It was just the game. We just need to move on from that s--- because I’m going to be back playing.”
The best part of that article was when he was asked about the Toronto fans and their reaction and he said “It will probably be the last time they will be in the Finals."
 

lovegtm

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The best part of that article was when he was asked about the Toronto fans and their reaction and he said “It will probably be the last time they will be in the Finals."
"...because I, and players like me, will never sign in a city unless it's to front-run, or to play in NYC", Durant went on.

(yes, I get that the Toronto fans were massively douchey and he has every right to throw it back at them)
 

johnmd20

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Someone in this thread said 48 million dollars of earnings in a few years isn't generational money.

That is a thing that happened.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Someone in this thread said 48 million dollars of earnings in a few years isn't generational money.

That is a thing that happened.
agentPlayer is probably taking home $25MM after taxes, abent fees, etc.

That's not including lifestyle and family and hangers-on.

If that is all a player makes (i.e., injury) seems to me that it's likely that his kids will have to work for a living.
 

tbrown_01923

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agentPlayer is probably taking home $25MM after taxes, abent fees, etc.

That's not including lifestyle and family and hangers-on.

If that is all a player makes (i.e., injury) seems to me that it's likely that his kids will have to work for a living.
I cannot get behind this. generational money != generational wisdom. Because one chooses not to be smart or evenly moderate about their approach to wealth building that doesn't mean the initial sum isn't generational.