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Murderer's Crow

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You can argue whether it’s worth it for Brunson or not but they did give up assets to clear space.

And there’s literally no way they would have done this series of moves if not for Brunson (or to open up cape space for another FA). Trading the 11th pick for 3 picks likely in the 20s (and with no idea when they convey) isn’t smart business
The Knicks are better with Brunson and 3 future 1sts than they are with the 11th pick. Brunson's contract isn't going to hurt them. I get your point and it's easy to dunk on the Knicks but undoing last year's craptastic moves and adding Brunson helps the future. Letting Kemba and co sit on the books and waiting for yet another cap reset to try to lure a FA that will never come here is not gonna work. They need to add quality players, young kids have to step up a little, and maybe in a year they are good enough to be a draw for another player.
 

Cellar-Door

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Note that it looks like San Antonio is starting a full rebuild, my first call today would be to them and I’m not hanging up until they trade me a forward.

Start with another team USA member in Keldon Johnson. How serious is your rebuild? Will you move him too?

if no, how about Doug McDermott? You definitely don’t need him.

if no, fine send me back Josh Richardson. I’m not hanging up till you give me one of them.
I like Johnson... I wouldn't want to use the TPE and picks on the other two. I think the other names mentioned for that slot (Huerter/Warren, Burks, even Olynyk) especially over McDermott who is burnt toast
 

Cellar-Door

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The Knicks are better with Brunson and 3 future 1sts than they are with the 11th pick. Brunson's contract isn't going to hurt them. I get your point and it's easy to dunk on the Knicks but undoing last year's craptastic moves and adding Brunson helps the future. Letting Kemba and co sit on the books and waiting for yet another cap reset to try to lure a FA that will never come here is not gonna work. They need to add quality players, young kids have to step up a little, and maybe in a year they are good enough to be a draw for another player.
I mean those aren't the only options. Also.. in 2 years Brunson has a 50/50 chance of being the new craptastic move they need to fix. You could basically sub in Evan Fournier or Julius Randle to that sentence and it's what Knicks people said when they signed them.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Johnson is part of the rebuild, right? I think McDermott and Richardson are obviously available. Not sure that the Celtics would want the former (injury prone, terrible season last year) without a ton of assets attached. Richardson is probably value neutral and knows the system, so he's worth inquiring after.

Another guy that is unlikely to be available but worth asking after is Poetl. I think San Antonio tries to retain him, though.
I thought JRich played decently and lord knows that the Cs really could have used him against GSW IMO, but I can't see the Cs paying the tax on his salary.
 

mcpickl

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Johnson is part of the rebuild, right? I think McDermott and Richardson are obviously available. Not sure that the Celtics would want the former (injury prone, terrible season last year) without a ton of assets attached. Richardson is probably value neutral and knows the system, so he's worth inquiring after.

Another guy that is unlikely to be available but worth asking after is Poetl. I think San Antonio tries to retain him, though.
I’m not sure Johnson is part of the rebuild. I would’ve thought Dejounte Murray was a part of the rebuild this time last week. That’s why I’d ask about Keldon first. If they say no, I move on.

this is his last cheap year of his contract. I think it’s at least possible they’d rather move him and be worse next year to get more ping pong balls.

i wouldn’t be trying to get McDermott with a bunch of assets attached. I’d be trying to acquire him while attaching Daniel Theis to the trade.

I don’t see a role for Poeltl here. He’s too good to be a backup center.
 
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mcpickl

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I like Johnson... I wouldn't want to use the TPE and picks on the other two. I think the other names mentioned for that slot (Huerter/Warren, Burks, even Olynyk) especially over McDermott who is burnt toast
i don’t think McDermott is burnt toast at all.

i want shooting, shooting and if possible more shooting for my last rotation spot.

And I want a guy who could conceivably play small forward because I have my three bigs, I have my three guards, I need my third forward
 

Murderer's Crow

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I mean those aren't the only options. Also.. in 2 years Brunson has a 50/50 chance of being the new craptastic move they need to fix. You could basically sub in Evan Fournier or Julius Randle to that sentence and it's what Knicks people said when they signed them.
Knicks fans I know were not excited about Fournier and Randle. Randle was SO bad in the playoffs that everyone almost immediately soured on him. Fournier was a "at least it will be tradable" feeling.
 

Cellar-Door

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i don’t think McDermott is burnt toast at all.

i want shooting, shooting and if possible more shooting for my last rotation spot.

And I want a guy who could conceivably play small forward because I have my three bigs, I have my three guards, I need my third forward
His defensive numbers are pretty awful, like near the very bottom of the league and he's one of the worst rebounders his size in the NBA, plus he provides basically no passing or playmaking.
McDermott is basically the definition of a 1 skill player, and he's just a much worse Gallo, who you might be able to pick up after he's cut.

McDermott is very much toast, in that he is bad at every single thing about being an NBA player except shooting the ball from a standstill, and most of those other things he's REALLY bad at.
 

mcpickl

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His defensive numbers are pretty awful, like near the very bottom of the league and he's one of the worst rebounders his size in the NBA, plus he provides basically no passing or playmaking.
McDermott is basically the definition of a 1 skill player, and he's just a much worse Gallo, who you might be able to pick up after he's cut.

McDermott is very much toast, in that he is bad at every single thing about being an NBA player except shooting the ball from a standstill, and most of those other things he's REALLY bad at.
I’m not worried about his defense. Just be 6’7”, be a small forward, and shoot the ball off the bench.

my top seven guys are all plus, or better, defenders. I have plenty of defense.

i want shooting. He can shoot.

Not toast
 

BaseballJones

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McDermott definitely can still shoot. Took the most 3s per game in his career this past season, and shot .422 from deep. I'll happily take that.
 
I love the Murray trade for Atlanta. I think Murray was the best player available, a sort of All-Star version of Marcus Smart. I think he's perfect to pair with Trae. I get the concerns. But if they're going to build a team around Trae Young, they need to play differently. They need to unlock the most efficient version of him in order for him to be a truly valuable player, because he's so bad defensively. That means getting him off the ball at times, getting him easier shots, and pairing him with someone who can defend both backcourt positions. The status quo, where Trae dominates the ball and takes low efficiency shots because the entire defense knows exactly what's coming, wasn't working. Players like Murray are rare. I like that they went all in to get him, as opposed to doubling down and going after Bradley Beal.
I'll do you one better: isn't it at least possible that if Trae isn't forced to create offense on every Hawks possession, he might have more energy and more of a willingness to play defense? Despite his lack of size, I don't think his defensive tools are atrocious; he's shown flashes of medocrity on that end of the floor, amidst all of the horridness. Maybe Murray is what it it takes for Trae to reach his defensive ceiling.
 

EvilEmpire

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We'll see what happens with the Knicks. The constant churn in order to have the flexibility to lure an elite player to NY hasn't worked out. Overpaying, but not too much, for a talented non-elite player isn't a bad move, especially for a position of need. Maybe better and more consistent PG play will help out Randle too.

They aren't going to win a championship regardless, but Brunson makes them better.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that people would take a guy who can't defend at all. I don't mean he's a bad defender, he's one of the worst in the league, who cares if he's 6'7", he can't contain anything he's abysmal. He can't pass, he can't rebound, he can't drive. Last year he was basically the answer to the question... "What if Grant Williams was really bad at defense", that kind of player doesn't play in the playoffs (I mean look at MIA who had to bench Robinson).

Why would you want to use your one shot at taking on salary on that? Huerter for example is 7 years younger, better at almost everything (not quite as good at standstill 3s), on the ascent, he's not quite the 3pt shooter, but he's gaining and he does it on higher volume. Luke Kennard is better at everything (including shooting 3s), Gallinari is similarly a good case for being better at everything.

The TPE is the Celtics' best chance to add a player who can really help in the playoffs. Adding a guy who has 1 skill and will get played right out of the rotation would be terrible. Did we come out of the finals saying "man I wish we had a guy who hit 1-2 more 3s a game and sucked on Defense"? No, we came out of it saying, "we need another wing who can hit shots and pass the ball without breaking the defense"
 

mcpickl

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I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that people would take a guy who can't defend at all. I don't mean he's a bad defender, he's one of the worst in the league, who cares if he's 6'7", he can't contain anything he's abysmal. He can't pass, he can't rebound, he can't drive. Last year he was basically the answer to the question... "What if Grant Williams was really bad at defense", that kind of player doesn't play in the playoffs (I mean look at MIA who had to bench Robinson).

Why would you want to use your one shot at taking on salary on that? Huerter for example is 7 years younger, better at almost everything (not quite as good at standstill 3s), on the ascent, he's not quite the 3pt shooter, but he's gaining and he does it on higher volume. Luke Kennard is better at everything (including shooting 3s), Gallinari is similarly a good case for being better at everything.

The TPE is the Celtics' best chance to add a player who can really help in the playoffs. Adding a guy who has 1 skill and will get played right out of the rotation would be terrible. Did we come out of the finals saying "man I wish we had a guy who hit 1-2 more 3s a game and sucked on Defense"? No, we came out of it saying, "we need another wing who can hit shots and pass the ball without breaking the defense"
i would use my one shot on that because I believe it’s a skill I need, from a team that’s in rebuild, who I can probably get for second(s) round picks while also making them take Daniel Theis.

and I absolutely came out of the playoffs saying we needed a guy who could shoot the shit out of it from the perimeter.

i think the passing/ball handling thing is a red herring. Your stars are always going to have the ball. I think a guy they can throw it to that can shoot it is much more valuable than a guy that can dribble it and pass it to them.

if you can get Huerter for the same package you can get McDermott for, absolutely get Huerter instead. But you can’t, right? That’s shopping in an entirely different aisle.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'll do you one better: isn't it at least possible that if Trae isn't forced to create offense on every Hawks possession, he might have more energy and more of a willingness to play defense? Despite his lack of size, I don't think his defensive tools are atrocious; he's shown flashes of medocrity on that end of the floor, amidst all of the horridness. Maybe Murray is what it it takes for Trae to reach his defensive ceiling.
You can probably make the argument Murray and Young will improve their efficiency on offense for the same reason. I don't like the pairing on paper but it could work. Personally, I think Murray is very overrated and kind of a stat padder but I guess we will find out.

Plus, I doubt Atlanta is done making moves. I can't see John Collins coming back.
 

the1andonly3003

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Johnson is part of the rebuild, right? I think McDermott and Richardson are obviously available. Not sure that the Celtics would want the former (injury prone, terrible season last year) without a ton of assets attached. Richardson is probably value neutral and knows the system, so he's worth inquiring after.

Another guy that is unlikely to be available but worth asking after is Poetl. I think San Antonio tries to retain him, though.
don't the Cs need to wait a year before re-acquiring him?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that people would take a guy who can't defend at all. I don't mean he's a bad defender, he's one of the worst in the league, who cares if he's 6'7", he can't contain anything he's abysmal. He can't pass, he can't rebound, he can't drive. Last year he was basically the answer to the question... "What if Grant Williams was really bad at defense", that kind of player doesn't play in the playoffs (I mean look at MIA who had to bench Robinson).

Why would you want to use your one shot at taking on salary on that? Huerter for example is 7 years younger, better at almost everything (not quite as good at standstill 3s), on the ascent, he's not quite the 3pt shooter, but he's gaining and he does it on higher volume. Luke Kennard is better at everything (including shooting 3s), Gallinari is similarly a good case for being better at everything.

The TPE is the Celtics' best chance to add a player who can really help in the playoffs. Adding a guy who has 1 skill and will get played right out of the rotation would be terrible. Did we come out of the finals saying "man I wish we had a guy who hit 1-2 more 3s a game and sucked on Defense"? No, we came out of it saying, "we need another wing who can hit shots and pass the ball without breaking the defense"
There's a chance Sam Hauser can give the team some of what McDermott does. I'm on Team Bamba or Warren if they are real possibilities.
 

Cellar-Door

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i would use my one shot on that because I believe it’s a skill I need, from a team that’s in rebuild, who I can probably get for second(s) round picks while also making them take Daniel Theis.

and I absolutely came out of the playoffs saying we needed a guy who could shoot the shit out of it from the perimeter.

i think the passing/ball handling thing is a red herring. Your stars are always going to have the ball. I think a guy they can throw it to that can shoot it is much more valuable than a guy that can dribble it and pass it to them.

if you can get Huerter for the same package you can get McDermott for, absolutely get Huerter instead. But you can’t, right? That’s shopping in an entirely different aisle.
I mean... why in the world would SA eat Theis for a couple 2nds? To save $4M cap space in a tanking year? They have no incentive for that.

Though I'd also say I think there is close to zero chance you can count on being able to play McDermott in a playoff series anyway, he's basically giving the opponent points, and offensively he's poor man's Grant Williams. Since he isn't a threat to drive, or pass he's going to get eaten up by good defenses, and he kills your rebounding.

The problem with McDermott is that he's not a much better shooter than other guys available (probably around 40%, other guys are also around that) and he's much worse at everything else, especially defense. If you don't care about defense, or rebounding or passing, just play Hauser, he shot 43% from 3 last year on 44 attempts.

But yeah to me the issue isn't even "is a guy who is only a shooter our need" it's that you can get similar shooters who are better basketball players and have more chance of staying on the court in every matchup.
 

Auger34

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The Knicks are better with Brunson and 3 future 1sts than they are with the 11th pick. Brunson's contract isn't going to hurt them. I get your point and it's easy to dunk on the Knicks but undoing last year's craptastic moves and adding Brunson helps the future. Letting Kemba and co sit on the books and waiting for yet another cap reset to try to lure a FA that will never come here is not gonna work. They need to add quality players, young kids have to step up a little, and maybe in a year they are good enough to be a draw for another player.
That’s not what I was arguing. You said they would have made these trades even if Brunson wasn’t a possibility. That’s insane
 

mcpickl

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I mean... why in the world would SA eat Theis for a couple 2nds? To save $4M cap space in a tanking year? They have no incentive for that.

Though I'd also say I think there is close to zero chance you can count on being able to play McDermott in a playoff series anyway, he's basically giving the opponent points, and offensively he's poor man's Grant Williams. Since he isn't a threat to drive, or pass he's going to get eaten up by good defenses, and he kills your rebounding.

The problem with McDermott is that he's not a much better shooter than other guys available (probably around 40%, other guys are also around that) and he's much worse at everything else, especially defense. If you don't care about defense, or rebounding or passing, just play Hauser, he shot 43% from 3 last year on 44 attempts.

But yeah to me the issue isn't even "is a guy who is only a shooter our need" it's that you can get similar shooters who are better basketball players and have more chance of staying on the court in every matchup.
i think they would eat Theis for seconds because I’m eating McDermott who is also overpaid.

i also don’t think the shooting percentage without context means much. Like, you referenced grant Williams earlier and sam Hauser now. Those guys are shooting that percentage while the opponent is basically saying, we’re willing to give you that shot.

no one has been willing to give McDermott his shot his whole life. The opponent is trying their best to not let him take that shot, and he’s over 40%.

that’s a rare skill
 

Cellar-Door

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i think they would eat Theis for seconds because I’m eating McDermott who is also overpaid.

i also don’t think the shooting percentage without context means much. Like, you referenced grant Williams earlier and sam Hauser now. Those guys are shooting that percentage while the opponent is basically saying, we’re willing to give you that shot.

no one has been willing to give McDermott his shot his whole life. The opponent is trying their best to not let him take that shot, and he’s over 40%.

that’s a rare skill
I generally don't agree with a few parts of this:
1. What tanking team cares about cutting $4M, especially while under the cap?
2. McDermott may have taken less open 3s than Grant, but he didn't take many fewer than the other guys mentioned.

Also, the idea that having a massive hole on defense doesn't matter is insane, we've watched every year as guys better than McDermott get hunted right off the floor. You can't play him in any game that matters.
 

mcpickl

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I generally don't agree with a few parts of this:
1. What tanking team cares about cutting $4M, especially while under the cap?
2. McDermott may have taken less open 3s than Grant, but he didn't take many fewer than the other guys mentioned.

Also, the idea that having a massive hole on defense doesn't matter is insane, we've watched every year as guys better than McDermott get hunted right off the floor. You can't play him in any game that matters.
the tanking team doesn’t care about saving 4 million.

they care about acquiring draft capital.

i don’t think they can get draft capital trading away McDermott, unless they take on a different overpaid guy such as Daniel Theis.

So they actually get off of some money as a bonus and acquire some draft capital to do so.

and I don’t think it’s insane to say his defense doesn’t matter. I need shooting. I don’t have a lot of assets available to acquire it. I certainly don’t have enough assets to acquire a shooter as good as McDermott, who’s also good defensively, because those guys make a lot more than McDermott makes and they’re not available.

Boston can absolutely play him in the playoffs in bench units, especially when Smart is on the floor, by having McDermott guard the corner and when the opponent tries to get him in the pick and roll action, and they certainly will, just preswitch and McDermott takes the guy going to the corner. Same way they did with IT, except this defensive weakness is a foot taller.

sometimes, with role players, you have to accept the weaknesses that come with their strengths. It’s just how it goes.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I hated the Theis trade. I (and some other poster) was predicting the C's would end up having to attach a pick to Theis to get rid of him this off season to make other moves.

I never understood the trade. TL insurance. No, he's not. He's just an overpaid big body.
 

Cesar Crespo

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the tanking team doesn’t care about saving 4 million.

they care about acquiring draft capital.

i don’t think they can get draft capital trading away McDermott, unless they take on a different overpaid guy such as Daniel Theis.

So they actually get off of some money as a bonus and acquire some draft capital to do so.

and I don’t think it’s insane to say his defense doesn’t matter. I need shooting. I don’t have a lot of assets available to acquire it. I certainly don’t have enough assets to acquire a shooter as good as McDermott, who’s also good defensively, because those guys make a lot more than McDermott makes and they’re not available.

Boston can absolutely play him in the playoffs in bench units, especially when Smart is on the floor, by having McDermott guard the corner and when the opponent tries to get him in the pick and roll action, and they certainly will, just preswitch and McDermott takes the guy going to the corner. Same way they did with IT, except this defensive weakness is a foot taller.

sometimes, with role players, you have to accept the weaknesses that come with their strengths. It’s just how it goes.
Seems like Malik Beasley is always available. Off court issues aside, I'd rather him than McDermott.
 

Cellar-Door

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the tanking team doesn’t care about saving 4 million.

they care about acquiring draft capital.

i don’t think they can get draft capital trading away McDermott, unless they take on a different overpaid guy such as Daniel Theis.

So they actually get off of some money as a bonus and acquire some draft capital to do so.

and I don’t think it’s insane to say his defense doesn’t matter. I need shooting. I don’t have a lot of assets available to acquire it. I certainly don’t have enough assets to acquire a shooter as good as McDermott, who’s also good defensively, because those guys make a lot more than McDermott makes and they’re not available.

Boston can absolutely play him in the playoffs in bench units, especially when Smart is on the floor, by having McDermott guard the corner and when the opponent tries to get him in the pick and roll action, and they certainly will, just preswitch and McDermott takes the guy going to the corner. Same way they did with IT, except this defensive weakness is a foot taller.

sometimes, with role players, you have to accept the weaknesses that come with their strengths. It’s just how it goes.
I mean we've been discussing literally those players (or at least less terrible defensively and with other positive attributes) with the TPE (and they don't make much if any more, Warren and Burks make less, Huerter only a bit more, Kennard slightly more, ). Also... is it really a good comp to compare him to a guy who was WAY WAY better and more impactful on offense, and whose bad defense helped sink us?

The better comp for McDermott is a worse, less versatile Fournier. Now maybe we could hide him better because we don't have a Kemba, but even the Fournier non-Kemba units got torched and Fournier is a better defender.

I agree, bench scorers can be defensive liabilities and work, BUT... they need to be real positives on offense, not guys who are only shooters and moderate volume ones at that. And you need to balance that with how bad they are at other things.... McDermott is TERRIBLE on D, and being 6'7" has not mattered at all to that, he's not good at anything else either. This feels very much like you saying "what is the absolute cheapest acquisition cost player who shoots over 38% from 3 I can find" instead of "what player is worth paying $13-15M to come off the bench for this team".
 

Devizier

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Theis isn't going anywhere unless Ime decides to go small. Even if the Celtics bring in another FC like Hartenstein (doubtful that he'd agree to sign up for the limited opportunities available in Boston, whatever his final contract). Theis covered ~20mpg in the regular season and the Celtics are going to be relying more on their frontcourt depth with Timelord finishing the season injured.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I hated the Theis trade. I (and some other poster) was predicting the C's would end up having to attach a pick to Theis to get rid of him this off season to make other moves.

I never understood the trade. TL insurance. No, he's not. He's just an overpaid big body.
Theis will be back in Boston next year, logging regular minutes and contributing value relative to his salary. Third center in Boston will play a lot because of Horford's age and Rob's durability.

Or he'll be used to match salaries in a trade.
 

mcpickl

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I mean we've been discussing literally those players (or at least less terrible defensively and with other positive attributes) with the TPE (and they don't make much if any more, Warren and Burks make less, Huerter only a bit more, Kennard slightly more, ). Also... is it really a good comp to compare him to a guy who was WAY WAY better and more impactful on offense, and whose bad defense helped sink us?

The better comp for McDermott is a worse, less versatile Fournier. Now maybe we could hide him better because we don't have a Kemba, but even the Fournier non-Kemba units got torched and Fournier is a better defender.

I agree, bench scorers can be defensive liabilities and work, BUT... they need to be real positives on offense, not guys who are only shooters and moderate volume ones at that. And you need to balance that with how bad they are at other things.... McDermott is TERRIBLE on D, and being 6'7" has not mattered at all to that, he's not good at anything else either. This feels very much like you saying "what is the absolute cheapest acquisition cost player who shoots over 38% from 3 I can find" instead of "what player is worth paying $13-15M to come off the bench for this team".
i don’t think of it like who is worth paying 13-15M to come off the bench. I consider it only adding 4 million to my payroll to get a great shooter to come off my bench, because I’m only doing a deal for McDermott on his contract if i can put Theis in the deal.

I realize many people here are just thinking I’ll take this guy for the TPE, then I’ll sign this other guy for the MLE and I’ll keep Theis and now we’re good.

i don’t think thats realistic, I’m trying to theorize moves that i think are
 

shoelace

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I hated the Theis trade. I (and some other poster) was predicting the C's would end up having to attach a pick to Theis to get rid of him this off season to make other moves.

I never understood the trade. TL insurance. No, he's not. He's just an overpaid big body.
I think they view Theis as regular-season TL insurance, and maybe as someone who can help them load manage Al. And, to my recollection he was fine in the Brooklyn series, he just wasn't playable in the other matchups.
 

Cellar-Door

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this is wild. did they not know Durant wanted out when they made this trade?

Did he call once they turned in the deal to the league?

crazy
Maybe it's a fake 1st.
If they are looking at a PHX deal built around Ayton and Bridges, they could be good this year
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Cs really seem to be in the part of the cycle where they need elite skill sets but cannot really afford to add them. Instead they need to be creative in terms of targets and fit.

Acquiring a McBuckets to come in and hit shots reliably while being set up and covered for by the rest of the rotation is exactly what you would expect this team to do at this point. As has been noted, they could have used this exact attribute during the finals. Absent acquiring Durant for a bunch of assets and picks, this is how the team can improve, if only at the margins.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Cs really seem to be in the part of the cycle where they need elite skill sets but cannot really afford to add them. Instead they need to be creative in terms of targets and fit.

Acquiring a McBuckets to come in and hit shots reliably while being set up and covered for by the rest of the rotation is exactly what you would expect this team to do at this point. As has been noted, they could have used this exact attribute during the finals. Absent acquiring Durant for a bunch of assets and picks, this is how the team can improve, if only at the margins.
I mean... would you rather have him or pay a bit more for Huerter who is a much better player? You could also probably get Gallo for nothing who is also better.
Improving at the margins is good... the question continues to be... does McDermott improve a team... and generally the answer everywhere he's been recently is no because he isn't going to take enough 3s to offset what he costs you elsewhere.
 

amfox1

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The back of your computer
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amfox1

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Aug 6, 2003
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The back of your computer
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
21s

Free agent F Bobby Portis is returning to the Milwaukee Bucks on a 4-year, $49M contract, his agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN.

EDIT:

Shams Charania

@ShamsCharania

21m

Free agent Wesley Matthews has agreed to a one-year deal to return to the Milwaukee Bucks, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.

Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania

20m

Free agent guard Jevon Carter has agreed to a two-year deal to return to Milwaukee, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
 
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