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reggiecleveland

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I think you have to be pretty tough to get to the point where you're a top 10 player in your sport
I am not questioning his toughness, just the inability of some observers to understand how tough these guys are and how much they put up with. At the time I thought that play was a sign of how frustrated Dray was and Tatum ignoring it was the right move. (But, we know Dray doing that to Perk, KG, Bird, Parish, Grant, would end differently) I would expect in the regular season, a less dickish guy would say sorry for getting his hands in the guy's face. But generally if you block out with your arms guys drag your arm and pull it, and refs let a lot of it go, and don't call it if the ball goes in. And if you are scrub undersized forward who scored 2 pts the game before, you will go after the young star. If you are courtside you will see refs tell guys to knock it off, meaning they will call the next one.

People complain about the late whistles on this, but if a rebounder fouls then gets the ball, the ref calls it. This is one reason I dislike the challenge play on OOB calls. Say Draymond grabs Tatum a bit and the ball goes OOB off Tatum, ref gives the ball to the Cs, rather than call a foul, but then GS challenges and they get the ball. So now the ref has to call a foul before he sees the result, so we get guys fouling out on a play where the opponent gets the board.

I am in the minority of coaches because I believe toughness can change, and it has a lot to do with physical strength.Tatum missed more at the rim when he probably 60% as strong as he is now. I don't really buy he is that much "tougher" as to why he is better at the rim. My speciality is usually working with forwards and toughness is often acquired in the weight-room, not in some inner struggle. Lots happened to Andrew Wiggins in his journey from "softass" to stopper in the finals. Gaining 15 pounds is not coincidental.
 
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Smokey Joe

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I am not questioning his toughness, just the inability of some observers to understand how tough these guys are and how much they put up with. At the time I thought that play was a sign of how frustrated Dray was and Tatum ignoring it was the right move. (But, we know Dray doing that to Perk, KG, Bird, Parish, Grant, would end differently) I would expect in the regular season, a less dickish guy would say sorry for getting his hands in the guy's face. But generally if you block out with your arms guys drag your arm and pull it, and refs let a lot of it go, and don't call it if the ball goes in. And if you are scrub undersized forward who scored 2 pts the game before, you will go after the young star. If you are courtside you will see refs tell guys to knock it off, meaning they will call the next one.

People complain about the late whistles on this, but if a rebounder fouls then gets the ball, the ref calls it. This is one reason I dislike the challenge play on OOB calls. Say Draymond grabs Tatum a bit and the ball goes OOB off Tatum, ref gives the ball to the Cs, rather than call a foul, but then GS challenges and they get the ball. So now the ref has to call a foul before he sees the result, so we get guys fouling out on a play where the opponent gets the board.

I am in the minority of coaches because I believe toughness can change, and it has a lot to do with physical strength.Tatum missed more at the rim when he probably 60% as strong as he is now. I don't really buy he is that much "tougher" as to why he is better at the rim. My speciality is usually working with forwards and toughness is often acquired in the weight-room, not in some inner struggle. Lots happened to Andrew Wiggins in his journey from "softass" to stopper in the finals. Gaining 15 pounds is not coincidental.
I don’t know about you, but when I gain 15 pounds it definitely is coincidental and has nothing to do with those pasteries.
 

Jimbodandy

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I am not questioning his toughness, just the inability of some observers to understand how tough these guys are and how much they put up with. At the time I thought that play was a sign of how frustrated Dray was and Tatum ignoring it was the right move. (But, we know Dray doing that to Perk, KG, Bird, Parish, Grant, would end differently) I would expect in the regular season, a less dickish guy would say sorry for getting his hands in the guy's face. But generally if you block out with your arms guys drag your arm and pull it, and refs let a lot of it go, and don't call it if the ball goes in. And if you are scrub undersized forward who scored 2 pts the game before, you will go after the young star. If you are courtside you will see refs tell guys to knock it off, meaning they will call the next one.

People complain about the late whistles on this, but if a rebounder fouls then gets the ball, the ref calls it. This is one reason I dislike the challenge play on OOB calls. Say Draymond grabs Tatum a bit and the ball goes OOB off Tatum, ref gives the ball to the Cs, rather than call a foul, but then GS challenges and they get the ball. So now the ref has to call a foul before he sees the result, so we get guys fouling out on a play where the opponent gets the board.

I am in the minority of coaches because I believe toughness can change, and it has a lot to do with physical strength.Tatum missed more at the rim when he probably 60% as strong as he is now. I don't really buy he is that much "tougher" as to why he is better at the rim. My speciality is usually working with forwards and toughness is often acquired in the weight-room, not in some inner struggle. Lots happened to Andrew Wiggins in his journey from "softass" to stopper in the finals. Gaining 15 pounds is not coincidental.
This is a great post.

FWIW, I agree with everything that you're saying here. But want to add that there are many different ways that mental toughness and killer instinct can manifest and affect outcomes. Curry is a perfect example of a guy who is fairly strong for his size, but he imposes his will with consistency, level-headedness and well-timed daggers. Guy has swagger without being in opponents' faces. There are many ways to influence a game with toughness. And girthing up so that guys can't throw you around (and you can them) is part of it, but far from all of it. I'd be fine with Tatum just being that kind of consistent guy who breaks the back of opponents with his play like Peak Curry.

I honestly don't get why people here are equating the idea of giving Dray a pass on pretty minor misdemeanor in manhandling Tatum with throwing a sucker punch in practice. They're completely different things.
 

Cellar-Door

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The punch was shocking since Poole didn't even have his hands up to defend himself. So it looked particularly violent as opposed to hockey players duking it out or football violence. BUT in no way should it be compared to white-collar office work. The Warriors don't appear to be bothered by it and are looking to string up the AV operator.

I'd like to see Green's in-game antics, with the refs & other players, held to the same standard as the rest of the NBA. If that means he gets thrown out of half the games so be it. Someone needs to draw the line with Dray since Bob Myers, Steve Kerr and GS teammates are enablers (& beneficiaries) of his out-of-control behavior. There is zero need for the NBA & refs to be so permissive with him.
Yes it shouldn't be compared to white collar work, and yes, the Warriors are covering, but some people with good sources say that among the players a lot of guys didn't see it live and were pissed when they saw the tape.

Kerr and Myers want the 1 seed, they have consistently made it clear that they won't do anything to jeopardize winning, that is the only priority, and Green is a fucking child so if they suspend him for ring night (he mentioned in his PC today he expects to play on ring night specifically) he'll spend months sulking... so they'll cajole and bribe Poole to let it slide. The only time Green has been punished by the team was when he went after KD, because KD was too valuable to offend.
 

djbayko

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Since people keep saying Tatum ignored Green pulling him by the neck, I did what I said I couldn't be bothered doing earlier, and I looked it up. Anyone who watches the clip upthread knows that there's no way for anyone to know how Tatum responded since he was thrown out of the frame and then the clip ends.

Here is the second quarter of the game. The move is about 5 minutes in. Of course, as one would expect, Tatum immediately finds a ref and complains for about 7 seconds as the Celtics bring the ball up and set up the offense. There was no way in hell that Tatum wasn't reacting to that foul.

https://nbafullhd.com/74899-2/
 

Jimbodandy

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Who's doing that?
There are number of posts in this thread doing Zapruder analysis of a swim move or not swim move against Tatum, where the focus should be on the face punch. Post 2100 in particular has someone writing "you guys are such enablers" implying that being OK with that one play (or at least not shitting a brick over it) is the same as cold-cocking a guy. It's not.
 

djbayko

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There are number of posts in this thread doing Zapruder analysis of a swim move or not swim move against Tatum, where the focus should be on the face punch. Post 2100 in particular has someone writing "you guys are such enablers" implying that being OK with that one play (or at least not shitting a brick over it) is the same as cold-cocking a guy. It's not.
I honestly think you're reading too much into that sentence, but if we just agree to ignore that post, it's just called a thread tangent. The Tatum foul analysis could be split out to another thread if it were important enough. No one is trying to equate that foul to a vicious sucker punch of a teammate, I hope.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You don’t see it as something to discuss? It often takes someone from outside of a sport to see the problems that everyone just accepts as “part of the game”. See football and boxing and concussions, bull fighting and animal cruelty. (Though I am sure that the bulls would complain if they could….OTOH, maybe not.)
To clarify, I encourage people to continue the discussion and they have. I'm just not going to add much beyond what I posted.

Also, speaking only for myself, I much prefer the current NBA to that of the 80s and 90s. The more physical style was cool in its own way but the creativity as well as the athleticism of the modern game is far more compelling. Its still pretty physical too imo.
 

nighthob

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Now we just need KD to weigh in…rooting for maximum chaos here
The rooting interest has to be In Green and Poole being trade to Brooklyn for Joe Harris, Cam Thomas, and anything else necessary to make it work, right? The ensuing chaos in Brooklyn would be must see TV.
 

benhogan

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Yes it shouldn't be compared to white collar work, and yes, the Warriors are covering, but some people with good sources say that among the players a lot of guys didn't see it live and were pissed when they saw the tape.

Kerr and Myers want the 1 seed, they have consistently made it clear that they won't do anything to jeopardize winning, that is the only priority, and Green is a fucking child so if they suspend him for ring night (he mentioned in his PC today he expects to play on ring night specifically) he'll spend months sulking... so they'll cajole and bribe Poole to let it slide. The only time Green has been punished by the team was when he went after KD, because KD was too valuable to offend.
I'm just looking forward to when the opposing fans start chanting "TRIPLE SINGLE" on his next airball.

and Poole smiling
 

Devizier

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I don’t see why the finals play is such a digression. That play by Green was dirty as fuck and of a piece with the many, many other dirty plays that he pulls. If the NBA hadn’t established such strong disincentives for retaliation that would have escalated big time. But of course Green knows that AND he knows the NBA doesn’t want to go to the suspension well AGAIN which is why he did that.

The Poole punch may have different origins but it’s entirely consistent with what we have seen from him on the court and honestly from what we’ve heard about him off the court (e.g. the Lansing return mentioned up thread).
 

Fishy1

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I don’t see why the finals play is such a digression. That play by Green was dirty as fuck and of a piece with the many, many other dirty plays that he pulls. If the NBA hadn’t established such strong disincentives for retaliation that would have escalated big time. But of course Green knows that AND he knows the NBA doesn’t want to go to the suspension well AGAIN which is why he did that.

The Poole punch may have different origins but it’s entirely consistent with what we have seen from him on the court and honestly from what we’ve heard about him off the court (e.g. the Lansing return mentioned up thread).
Agreed. No one was saying they're equivalent, people were just arguing that this is another instance of a bonafide asshole acting like an asshole. Dray isn't "tougher" than everyone else, he's a loose cannon who acts on petty, violent impulses and consistently gets away with it. He's not brave either: he's a bully who the refs and the league have decided is allowed to be a bully because he plays with Steph.

The point is that the smaller moves like "the swim move," as it's laughably been called, add up. Part of what Draymond does is flooding the zone. He's constantly yelling and getting under people's skin and delivering cheap shots because, like a lot of abusive people, he's trying to normalize his insanity and see what he can get away with. And the fact of the matter is he's testing boundaries and repeatedly finding he can do whatever he wants. This is the latest example. Whether he's finally crossed a red line or not is another question.
 

Squeteague

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This is more last seasons rumors/news, but I hadn't even heard about this until this week.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2022/10/warriors-notes-divincenzo-poole-iguodala-baldwin.html

Donte DiVincenzo thought he was going to be traded to Boston at the deadline for Dennis Schroder?

That would've been an interesting add if Wyc was willing to pay the tax last season.
If I recall correctly the reporting was the Celtics offered Schröder for DiVincenzo, the Bucks said no to Schroeder and asked for Grant Williams instead
 

Kliq

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Kyrie being the only guy not wearing a jersey, and in fact holding it in his hand instead, is a nice touch.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Marvin Bagley slipped on the floor and his knee got the worst of it. Looks like a season ending multiple ligament injury to me.
 

djbayko

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I'm sure Poole is just thrilled.

ESPN: Warriors' Draymond Green fined, not suspended; will play Friday
Warriors forward Draymond Green will rejoin the team on Thursday, coach Steve Kerr said following Golden State's preseason win against the Portland Trail Blazers on Tuesday night.
Kerr told reporters in San Francisco on Tuesday night that Green has been fined but not suspended. He will play in the team's final preseason game on Friday against the Nuggets, and will be available on opening night Tuesday against the Lakers.
 

djbayko

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Not even suspended for a measly preseason game? What an ego check for Poole.
I mean, it was kind of obvious the team wasn't going to do anything. They'd already taken care of it as far as they were concerned, and their attention to who the video leaker was told us they were pissed that the public was able to second guess their decision.

Letting Green get off with a simple apology was the original sin.
 

worm0082

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What a joke. Poole should leave and tell them all to go screw. The NBA should step in and do something.
 

BigSoxFan

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LOL, Kerr. “We” have work to do. Draymond has earned the benefit of the doubt. Complete clown shoes quotes here.

"This is the biggest crisis that we've had since I've been the coach here," Kerr said. "It's really serious stuff. We're not perfect. ... But we're going to lean on the experience that we have together and trust that this is the best decision for our team. We have a lot of work to do. All of us."

"He broke our trust, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think he's earned that," Kerr said.
 

worm0082

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Total bullshit. The guy felony assaulted someone in a workplace. They were more concerned with going after who leaked the video. That was their top priority. In this day and age of “wokeness” I mean come on. The NBA has to step in and do something to punish Green and also the Warriors for covering it up/ their non-reaction. Absolute bullshit.

Poole should at bare minimum walk off the team. I cant imagine how his agent is telling him yes. This is acceptable. He should have filed a police report and pressed charges. Is that still possible? I’m sure he’s a total diva etc.. but I can’t imagine how people in his camp are telling him this is acceptable. Ok shake hands…. Where is the NBA front office? Warriors arent going to do anything. And they should also be punished for that.

I loved Kerr on those bulls teams but I lost a lot of respect for him on his stance / approach on this.

what it should be : NBA : here’s your work to do , Green suspended indefinitely.
 

BigSoxFan

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Total bullshit. The guy felony assaulted someone in a workplace. They were more concerned with going after who leaked the video. That was their top priority. In this day and age of “wokeness” I mean come on. The NBA has to step in and do something to punish Green and also the Warriors for covering it up/ their non-reaction. Absolute bullshit.

Poole should at bare minimum walk off the team. I cant imagine how his agent is telling him yes. This is acceptable. He should have filed a police report and pressed charges. Is that still possible? I’m sure he’s a total diva etc.. but I can’t imagine how people in his camp are telling him this is acceptable. Ok shake hands…. Where is the NBA front office? Warriors arent going to do anything. And they should also be punished for that.

I loved Kerr on those bulls teams but I lost a lot of respect for him on his stance / approach on this.

what it should be : NBA : here’s your work to do , Green suspended indefinitely.
It makes Kerr’s incessant whining about Smart inadvertently injuring Curry on a legitimate hustle play last year that much funnier. End of the day, just like in society, status matters. Draymond punches Curry in the face and he’s probably traded the next day. These guys are motivated by one thing and one thing only - winning titles. You almost have to respect that.

Poole needs to ink his life-changing long term contract so he can’t go AWOL here. I don’t expect the NBA to do anything.
 

snowmanny

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It makes Kerr’s incessant whining about Smart inadvertently injuring Curry on a legitimate hustle play last year that much funnier.
Yeah I always liked Kerr but this whole episode confirms what we’ve all started to see over the last year or so. Kerr may be smart and often a good guy but he is indisputably a self-serving hypocritical sanctimonious blowhard piece of shit. He’s Joe Madden. Or maybe he thinks it’s ok to get punched in the face at practice since it made him the wise man he is today.
n.b. There may be slight hyperbole in my post but I am sick of his act. He needs to keep my team out of his mouth now that he’s revealed his true self
 

JCizzle

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Yeah I always liked Kerr but this whole episode confirms what we’ve all started to see over the last year or so. Kerr may be smart and often a good guy but he is indisputably a self-serving hypocritical sanctimonious blowhard piece of shit. He’s Joe Madden. Or maybe he thinks it’s ok to get punched in the face at practice since it made him the wise man he is today.
n.b. There may be slight hyperbole in my post but I am sick of his act. He needs to keep my team out of his mouth now that he’s revealed his true self
I'm sure they'll find a way to blame those mean Celtics fans for using swear words around him. Clearly still ringing in his head and forced Draymond to punch someone.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah I always liked Kerr but this whole episode confirms what we’ve all started to see over the last year or so. Kerr may be smart and often a good guy but he is indisputably a self-serving hypocritical sanctimonious blowhard piece of shit. He’s Joe Madden. Or maybe he thinks it’s ok to get punched in the face at practice since it made him the wise man he is today.
n.b. There may be slight hyperbole in my post but I am sick of his act. He needs to keep my team out of his mouth now that he’s revealed his true self
I guess it’s also possible that this decision was made above him and he’s the mouthpiece/face of it. Tough to say. In any event, will be interesting to watch Poole’s interactions with Draymond going forward, if they have any. Maybe Poole is far more forgiving/gracious than I expected.
 

lars10

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Yeah I always liked Kerr but this whole episode confirms what we’ve all started to see over the last year or so. Kerr may be smart and often a good guy but he is indisputably a self-serving hypocritical sanctimonious blowhard piece of shit. He’s Joe Madden. Or maybe he thinks it’s ok to get punched in the face at practice since it made him the wise man he is today.
n.b. There may be slight hyperbole in my post but I am sick of his act. He needs to keep my team out of his mouth now that he’s revealed his true self
Kerr has consistently, without fail, defended Green every time he does something like this.. there are never any consequences so Green continues to be the dirty player he is.. it’s hard to argue otherwise. He’s been treated with kid gloves his entire career so he thinks it’s his right to hurt other players whenever he has his feelings hurt. Guy should have the most suspensions ever.. I’m trying to think of any player that has tried more to injure other players on the court.. maybe Wade?
 

lars10

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I guess it’s also possible that this decision was made above him and he’s the mouthpiece/face of it. Tough to say. In any event, will be interesting to watch Poole’s interactions with Draymond going forward, if they have any. Maybe Poole is far more forgiving/gracious than I expected.
Kerr has never even really reprimanded Green for any of his outbursts.. why would this be any different? Do we all think he’s had someone above him always telling him what to do? This is all even more pathetic as Draymond’s skills decline.. there’s even less of an excuse to defend his behavior, but Kerr always finds a way.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kerr has never even really reprimanded Green for any of his outbursts.. why would this be any different? Do we all think he’s had someone above him always telling him what to do? This is all even more pathetic as Draymond’s skills decline.. there’s even less of an excuse to defend his behavior, but Kerr always finds a way.
I’m definitely on your side of the argument. Hard to know how it went down but you’re right that Kerr is an enabler of this behavior.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I guess it’s also possible that this decision was made above him and he’s the mouthpiece/face of it. Tough to say. In any event, will be interesting to watch Poole’s interactions with Draymond going forward, if they have any. Maybe Poole is far more forgiving/gracious than I expected.
Per Kerr, Poole was the ultimate arbiter. He and Dray apparently got together and worked things out. Kerr said yesterday that the decision was going to be left to the players, which we can presume means principally JP with input from the elder statesman: Steph, Looney, Iguodala.

Loon in particular has apparently stepped up big in the crisis, being both super close with JP (who idolized him as a fellow Milwaukee prep stud, three years his senior) and an official member of the OG. Even with Dray returning, I think he’s effectively stepped into Dray’s role among the team’s core emotional leaders, with Steph and Andre. While he presumably signed off on Dray’s return, he also said it’s gonna take time for him to win back the players’ trust.

Personally: while I’m still pissed at Dray to the point where I basically want him gone (if not right now, at a date TBD, like Tommy in Goodfellas) I have no issue with the Warriors’ process of leaving it up to the players. And either way, I don’t think an arbitrary X game suspension coming down from on high (as happened with the Dray-KD dustup) really changes anything. Dray lost the respect he had among his teammates — who to a man rushed to JP’s side, notwithstanding the initial, sleazy Haynes report to the contrary — and among NBA players in general; and I don’t think he’s ever gonna win it back completely. Let him stew in that knowledge while he’s yapping at the refs with his teammates rolling their eyes behind him, or while he’s trying to negotiate his extension with his leverage lost.
 
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Fishy1

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Per Kerr, Poole was the ultimate arbiter. He and Dray apparently got together and worked things out. Kerr said yesterday that the decision was going to be left to the players, which we can presume means probably JP with input from the elder statesman: Steph, Looney, Iguodala.

Loon in particular has apparently stepped up big in the crisis, being both super close with JP (who idolized him as a fellow Milwaukee prep stud, three years his senior) and an official member of the OG. Even with Dray returning, I think he’s effectively stepped into Dray’s role among the team’s core emotional leaders, with Steph and Andre. While he presumably signed off on Dray’s return, he also said it’s gonna take time for him to win back the players’ trust.

Personally: while I’m still pissed at Dray to the point where I basically want him gone (if not right now, at a date TBD, like Tommy in Goodfellas) I can’t knock the Warriors’ process of leaving it up to the players; and either way, I don’t think an arbitrary X game suspension coming down from on high (as happened with the Dray-KD dustup) really changes shit. Dray lost the respect he had among the team and among NBA players in general, and is never gonna win it back completely. Let him stew in that knowledge while he’s yapping at the refs with his teammates rolling their eyes behind him, or while he’s trying to negotiate his extension with his leverage lost.
This is a nice way of thinking about it. Draymond has been showing people who he is for so long, and now he's going to finally start to reap what he sowed. It's lonely being a declining apex predator. He's gotta live not only with what he did but the fact that everyone in the basketball world knows about it.
 

snowmanny

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I guess then I shouldn’t blame Kerr for doing nothing because he intentionally did nothing because he is so wise and has elder statesmen to do his job for him. Whatever. I’m adding overrated to my rant.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Kerr has never even really reprimanded Green for any of his outbursts.. why would this be any different? Do we all think he’s had someone above him always telling him what to do? This is all even more pathetic as Draymond’s skills decline.. there’s even less of an excuse to defend his behavior, but Kerr always finds a way.
Yeah, I understand (team success-wise) why Kerr does all of this---defend Green, criticize Smart, etc. But we should all be clear that Kerr is no more ethical/consistent than any other coach and less than some. He's doing his job, and we should hear him talking about other players through the voice of a Warrior advocate and nothing else.

I seriously doubt this was up to the players (I do not doubt the spin is that it was) and I also think a different management team would have taken the choice out of Poole/the players hands anyway---it's tough to ask them to effectively judge each other. Management should be setting standards, in any workplace. They know Draymond well and my sense is he's proud, egotistical, and a "my team or not my team" kind of guy who would not take kindly to discipline so I get what they did and why. Green is also a dirty cheap shot artist who should have been thrown out of multiple finals games, so part of the team's approach here is to continue to minimize perception of the reality of his game.
 
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