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nighthob

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I was only bringing up Ja because people were saying Barrett's contract was "near max", and I was using the numbers of an actual max to show that it was not, in fact, particularly near max.

Apologies if that was not clear.
It's also dishonest as Morant is on a designated veteran extension which is a bump up from regular max (assuming that the conditions are met for it). His contract is actually near the 25% max rate for non-designated players.

But the biggest problem is just that, despite HRB's defense of him, he isn't playing in an NBA tirefire. The Knicks are actually an above average defensive team. Barrett's one of the things making them look worse as he plays zero defense at a position where defense is really important. If he brought offense to the table (a la Donovan) you could probably live with it. Unfortunately Barrett FGAs are what opposing defense strive to force NY into and Barrett is all too willing to fire up terrible shot after terrible shot. The best thing they could have done with him is dumped him on actual tirefire (like OKC) for picks to bring Donovan in.
 

JM3

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Oops wrong thread.

Must make this post on topic...

I would be ok, but unenthused, with minimum Melo.
 

TripleOT

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Red often used to sign all time great players from other teams late in their careers.

I would love to see Hauser developed as a rotation floor stretcher, but I’d rather have Melo with the second unit when a bucket is needed.
 

BigSoxFan

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Red often used to sign all time great players from other teams late in their careers.

I would love to see Hauser developed as a rotation floor stretcher, but I’d rather have Melo with the second unit when a bucket is needed.
I'm with you. We're dealing with all imperfect options at this point so give Melo a try. He could be similar what we wanted Jabari Parker to be. No downside either. If he's cooked, move on.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Red often used to sign all time great players from other teams late in their careers.

I would love to see Hauser developed as a rotation floor stretcher, but I’d rather have Melo with the second unit when a bucket is needed.
Ainge brought in Cassell and PJ Brown who were both critical in winning key playoff games in 2008. We’ve done this for decades dating back to Red with Dave Bing, Walton, Maravich, Rickey Green, Ray Williams, Artis Gilmore, & Otis Birdsong from my recollection.
 

Tony C

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It really is sad. A super fun player to watch and really seemed he’d hit his stride early last year and was going to be about half as good as his dad said, ie, really damn good.
 

radsoxfan

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It seems like meniscus injuries can be more problematic than most ACL injuries. Is that correct?
Hard to generalize since there are basically an infinite number of ways you can tear your meniscus. Additionally, plenty of times if someone tears their ACL, they also get a meniscus tear too.

But repairing an ACL is pretty straightforward and on its own has a pretty predictable recovery most of the time.

So if your options are “clean ACL tear with no meniscus tear” vs. “meniscus tear X (unknown type and size) and no ACL tear” you could argue long term the ACL tear might be the better injury to get for an athlete.

Short term the ACL tear will certainly knock you out 6+ months while most meniscus tears won’t (unless they try to fix it, which is a minority of cases).
 

HomeRunBaker

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It really is sad. A super fun player to watch and really seemed he’d hit his stride early last year and was going to be about half as good as his dad said, ie, really damn good.
Yeah this is awful. The kid was turning into something special without appearing to be special to the naked eye.
 

tbb345

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This is much more talk about RJ Barrett than I ever expected to see here, but the issues surrounding him are interesting. Comps so far of Brown and Smart are farther away from what kind of player this is as of today (inefficient volume scorer who plays no defense). Here's a better comp.

View attachment 54895View attachment 54896View attachment 54897

I was not a fan of Booker his first couple of years. His efficiency was junk, although not as bad as Barrett, and his defense was atrocious.

His defense is still pretty damn bad, but it's not as terrible as it once was. And perhaps more importantly, his efficiency (not just TS% but also ass% and tov%) and impact numbers are so damn good, his lack of defense is pretty well offset.

Basically the bet on Barrett is that his growth as an offensive player will continue and that he'll become a more efficient guy and that maybe he'll play defense someday. I wouldn't put money down on the latter, but ymmv. Either way, there is precedent.
I don’t hate the Barrett contract at all. I think it’s something that the Knicks almost had to do (even though the timing was kind of weird)

But…I don’t see a Barrett comp to JB at all. Barrett’s not a great athlete, I am not even sure if he would be considered a good one by NBA standards.

I think his skill level is higher than Brown’s at this point, but he’s also a player who needs the ball in his hands to be the best version of himself and he’s not a good enough player to have that luxury.

All in all, I think there’s definite sticker shock with the amount and I don’t hate the contract. I also don’t think that Barrett’s going to have some massive leap and become the level of player that’s being thrown around in this thread as comps.
 

Euclis20

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I don’t hate the Barrett contract at all. I think it’s something that the Knicks almost had to do (even though the timing was kind of weird)

But…I don’t see a Barrett comp to JB at all. Barrett’s not a great athlete, I am not even sure if he would be considered a good one by NBA standards.

I think his skill level is higher than Brown’s at this point, but he’s also a player who needs the ball in his hands to be the best version of himself and he’s not a good enough player to have that luxury.

All in all, I think there’s definite sticker shock with the amount and I don’t hate the contract. I also don’t think that Barrett’s going to have some massive leap and become the level of player that’s being thrown around in this thread as comps.
They aren't the exact same player, but both are about 6'6 220, big wings who were drafted 3rd overall, they signed essentially the exact same contract after their 3rd year in the league, and the initial reaction to both contracts was a bit of sticker shock, followed by most acknowledging that it was worth the risk and "had to be done." Even if the players aren't the same, their situations haven't been too far apart.
 

Jimbodandy

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They aren't the exact same player, but both are about 6'6 220, big wings who were drafted 3rd overall, they signed essentially the exact same contract after their 3rd year in the league, and the initial reaction to both contracts was a bit of sticker shock, followed by most acknowledging that it was worth the risk and "had to be done." Even if the players aren't the same, their situations haven't been too far apart.
The sticker shock comparison isn't correct. A few are doubting the Barrett price tag, but nobody sane was questioning the Brown cost.
 

Euclis20

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The sticker shock comparison isn't correct. A few are doubting the Barrett price tag, but nobody sane was questioning the Brown cost.
Here are a few posts after he re-signed, just from the first 2 pages:

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/jaylen-brown-re-signs-for-4-years-115-million.28627/

Whoa. Didn't see that coming. Hope that China revenue keeps rolling in!
shocker, great deal for Jaylen
A little too much but I guess this makes him more tradeable.
Seems like a slight overpay to me, but with the money already allocated to kemba smart and hayward (and tatum soon), they were never going to be under the cap anyway so whether he got 4-115 or 4-100 doesn't really matter to the team.
Twitter is laughing at this contract and they should. Huge overpay.
I don't understand how a guy who is a below average starter at best gets $26m a year. Granted I'm not as big a basketball fan as I was a decade ago. Jaylen Brown was 162 out of 183 starters in BPM last year, 139th in ws/48, 117th in per.
Agree with this and the previous post. One has to think that Danny foresees an unforeseen massive improvement.
Seriously, though...I would have waited to see something from him this year first. So far it takes a lot of growth projection to think he's even a borderline star.
It's pure wishcasting. I like Jaylen quite a bit but overpaying for non-stars is how you ruin your cap. See, current Red Sox.
That is a lot of money for Jaylen Brown. I think he's a good player/prospect, but think his most likely outcome is as a high level role player like a Trevor Ariza or Danny Green.(not same skillset but guys that you'd love to have as your 5th best player, but not as a top 3 player)
I'm not a big Jaylen guy so I'm not thrilled with the deal. He's too inconsistent and disappears for long stretches. I'm guessing Danny didn't see anyone that would be marketedly better to use those funds on and sees it as a tradeable contract. He's going to have expectations now, and fans are going to get on him more when his play is subpar. We'll see how he responds .
Maybe sticker shock isn't the right wording, but quite a few people thought it was an overpay, here and elsewhere (and man are there some bad takes there). And keep in mind that:

1. This is a Celtics board, more prone to mocking a Knicks signing than a Celtics signing.
2. While the real guaranteed dollars are basically identical (4/107 for Barrett, 4/106 for Brown), the cap is about 13% higher than now than 3 years ago. From a team building standpoint, the Celtics spent a decent amount more on Brown than the Knicks just spent on Barrett.
 

Swedgin

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I don’t hate the Barrett contract at all. I think it’s something that the Knicks almost had to do (even though the timing was kind of weird)

But…I don’t see a Barrett comp to JB at all. Barrett’s not a great athlete, I am not even sure if he would be considered a good one by NBA standards.

I think his skill level is higher than Brown’s at this point, but he’s also a player who needs the ball in his hands to be the best version of himself and he’s not a good enough player to have that luxury.

All in all, I think there’s definite sticker shock with the amount and I don’t hate the contract. I also don’t think that Barrett’s going to have some massive leap and become the level of player that’s being thrown around in this thread as comps.
The Port Cellar is apparently in good company. Vecenie had piece on the Atlantic on the Barrett signing. His lede paragraph:

Barrett is one of those players who tends to evoke strong emotions league-wide, with few having a down-the-middle take on what his future holds. Over the years, I’ve had so many conversations about him with NBA general manager levels to front-office members to NBA pro personnel scouts to scouts on the college side that I’ve lost count. And the takeaway is simple: He is polarizing, and evaluators feel that way for reasons in Barrett’s control, and outside of it.
It is important to consider the extension in the context of the changing cap environment. Given the expected growth in the cap with the new TV deal, by the time the extension kicks in his contract is going to be closer to "solid starter", than a max. Another thing Lowe and Marks discussed on the Lowe Post re the Mitchell trade - Utah's interest in Barrett was as an asset that would be flipped to a third team for additional picks, not as someone the Jazz planned to extend.
 

JM3

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Jaylen's 1st 3 seasons & RJ's do have a fair amount of parallels. Both had nice jumps into their 2nd seasons & then mild regression in their 3rd.

Jaylen took a really nice jump in his 4th season & if RJ does the same, the Knicks won't regret what they did either.
 

tbb345

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Jaylen's 1st 3 seasons & RJ's do have a fair amount of parallels. Both had nice jumps into their 2nd seasons & then mild regression in their 3rd.

Jaylen took a really nice jump in his 4th season & if RJ does the same, the Knicks won't regret what they did either.
There are some parallels, Euclis point out a few more above.

However, I am going to point out again that Jaylen is light years ahead of Barrett as an athlete. Like it’s not even close.

This might be biased on my part but, to me, that gave Jaylen a better chance of taking a big leap than Barrett
 

Jimbodandy

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Here are a few posts after he re-signed, just from the first 2 pages:

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/jaylen-brown-re-signs-for-4-years-115-million.28627/























Maybe sticker shock isn't the right wording, but quite a few people thought it was an overpay, here and elsewhere (and man are there some bad takes there). And keep in mind that:

1. This is a Celtics board, more prone to mocking a Knicks signing than a Celtics signing.
2. While the real guaranteed dollars are basically identical (4/107 for Barrett, 4/106 for Brown), the cap is about 13% higher than now than 3 years ago. From a team building standpoint, the Celtics spent a decent amount more on Brown than the Knicks just spent on Barrett.
Thank you for linking the JB signing thread. Editing a bit to try to say this without sounding totally obnoxious...there are some people in that thread who were displaying the sticker shock that you describe, fair point. Reaction was mixed.

Brown wasn't/isn't as polarizing as Barrett, inasmuch as anyone here even thinks that much about the latter, but there is a small percentage of this board that still doesn't admit that they were wrong about Jaylen.

I've been won over to a combination of "wtf are the Knicks supposed to do but re-sign prospects" and "it's not a max max, and he's at least a buckets guy". I'm still not bullish on the RJ, but I get why some are projecting future growth. And there are parallels for my take on him with some of the takes in that Jaylen thread, so fair point.

There were also folks who were shocked at the price tag of Bradley and Crowder's extensions, and those contracts turned out fine.


There are some parallels, Euclis point out a few more above.

However, I am going to point out again that Jaylen is light years ahead of Barrett as an athlete. Like it’s not even close.

This might be biased on my part but, to me, that gave Jaylen a better chance of taking a big leap than Barrett
Yeah Jaylen being a very good athlete and a known workaholic could be a distinguishing factor. Barrett doesn't have that explosiveness.
 
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JM3

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There are some parallels, Euclis point out a few more above.

However, I am going to point out again that Jaylen is light years ahead of Barrett as an athlete. Like it’s not even close.

This might be biased on my part but, to me, that gave Jaylen a better chance of taking a big leap than Barrett
Tons of athletes don't become top-level basketball players. & I have no interest in relitigating the past. If he hadn't made that leap, it would have been a bad contract because y3 Jaylen wasn't really a positive basketball player. I don't think I had an issue with the signing at the time, but I don't remember being over-the-moon about it or anything.

RJ isn't really a useful archetype of basketball player as is, so he's going to have to get really efficient at the things he can do to be worth the $.

My only point was it was interesting they both dipped from year 2 to 3 because you usually expect a more linear progression.

The reasons for their dips in some ways were probably the opposite - Jaylen lost playing time cuz GH iirc & his 3 point shot regressed. His year 2 3s seemed like they might be fluky because he was a 65% free throw shooter at that stage & he only averaged 13 ppg in y3.

RJ's dip was probably caused by more usage. Basically the only area he improved in was ppg.
 

lovegtm

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Thank you for linking the JB signing thread. Editing a bit to try to say this without sounding totally obnoxious...there are some people in that thread who were displaying the sticker shock that you describe, fair point. Reaction was mixed.

Brown wasn't/isn't as polarizing as Barrett, inasmuch as anyone here even thinks that much about the latter, but there is a small percentage of this board that still doesn't admit that they were wrong about Jaylen.

I've been won over to a combination of "wtf are the Knicks supposed to do but re-sign prospects" and "it's not a max max, and he's at least a buckets guy". I'm still not bullish on the RJ, but I get why some are projecting future growth. And there are parallels for my take on him with some of the takes in that Jaylen thread, so fair point.

There were also folks who were shocked at the price tag of Bradley and Crowder's extensions, and those contracts turned out fine.




Yeah Jaylen being a very good athlete and a known workaholic could be a distinguishing factor. Barrett doesn't have that explosiveness.
RJ is not nearly as elite an athlete, but he's also known as an extreme workaholic.

Honestly, the reactions seem very similar, and the situations seem pretty similar. In most of the bad cases, the team gets a neutral asset or 4th/5th starter. In the good cases, it gets a positive contract. In the great cases, it gets a huge underpay for an All-Star.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tons of athletes don't become top-level basketball players. & I have no interest in relitigating the past. If he hadn't made that leap, it would have been a bad contract because y3 Jaylen wasn't really a positive basketball player. I don't think I had an issue with the signing at the time, but I don't remember being over-the-moon about it or anything.

RJ isn't really a useful archetype of basketball player as is, so he's going to have to get really efficient at the things he can do to be worth the $.

My only point was it was interesting they both dipped from year 2 to 3 because you usually expect a more linear progression.

The reasons for their dips in some ways were probably the opposite - Jaylen lost playing time cuz GH iirc & his 3 point shot regressed. His year 2 3s seemed like they might be fluky because he was a 65% free throw shooter at that stage & he only averaged 13 ppg in y3.

RJ's dip was probably caused by more usage. Basically the only area he improved in was ppg.
As you said with each, it isn’t hard to recognize that 21-yr old RJ is going to be inefficient as a #1 option or why 3rd year Jaylen was the odd man out when that team had 4-5 guys all looking to put up their own numbers in contract years. For these obvious reasons I wouldn’t characterize their development as not being linear based on circumstances out of their control. Each player improved their individual skill and body levels in that 3rd year imo.

RJ is not nearly as elite an athlete, but he's also known as an extreme workaholic.
Great point about the work ethic. Generally speaking you can associate a young players upside with to their physical traits of length and athleticism along with having body that he can still grow into. With every rule there are exceptions so guys like Barrett, Cole Anthony, the Van Vleets, etc etc can often grow beyond what traditionally would be very unlikely.
 

PedroKsBambino

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To me the Knicks knew what many of us have noted, which is that you have to pay a premium for “young scoring” whether you believe the upside or not. Which is why they were willing to deal him for the top 2% version of himself in Mitchell.

I don’t blame them for the extension; I do think it’s a stretch to say his profile and upside are that similar to Jaylen, though. The story with Jaylen has always been that there’s a top-tier athlete who might be a two-way impact wing. Barrett has little chance of that, though he easily can be worth more than this contract if he takes a leap in either side of the ball. Reasonable people can differ on the probability to achieving that upside scenario—you could persuade me Barrett is morelikely than Jaylen was though it’s easy to forget that given Jaylen has now achieved it
 

Smokey Joe

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So…Why wouldn’t he stay in LA if he had any game left? It’s not like there’s a plethora of competent NBA players there.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I've never been a big Carmelo guy, and on balance I think I prefer to skip this experience.

That said, it is possible in a no-Gallinari scenario that he's a useful second-unit scorer. The answer to "why not stay in LA" probably has two answers (beyond "they don't want him" of course): First, they need people who play defense, which he does not, and Celtics can live without that; and Second, the chemistry in LA is a total mess...and with the Celtics pre-Carmelo it is not.

The aspirational Carmelo role is second-unit scorer and useful three-point shooter with the starters on occasion. It's not impossible that works, I just don't know that I'd bet on it
 

Euclis20

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Melo's message is a nice sentiment, but honestly I don't know if it's what a contending team looking to add a veteran bench guy should be looking for. It's what you say if you want to make it clear that you're happy joining a rebuilding team (sounds like he'd be happy following in Vince Carter's footsteps). Definitely a healthy attitude to have if you want to stay in the league for as long as possible, but for better or worse, he's saying winning a championship isn't the most important thing left for him to do.
 

lexrageorge

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I would view it as a low risk move to bring Carmelo in. If he doesn't work out, Stevens could either trade him or buy him out.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Melo's message is a nice sentiment, but honestly I don't know if it's what a contending team looking to add a veteran bench guy should be looking for. It's what you say if you want to make it clear that you're happy joining a rebuilding team (sounds like he'd be happy following in Vince Carter's footsteps). Definitely a healthy attitude to have if you want to stay in the league for as long as possible, but for better or worse, he's saying winning a championship isn't the most important thing left for him to do.
I mean he did say this…….
“So do I want a championship? Hell
yeah. I don't think that's a question. I don't even
have to answer that.”

He’s playing the game without playing for individual numbers to get that next contract. That’s the type of veteran you want in the backend of your rotation. If Melo never landed in NY with the Knicks I think he would be viewed much differently than many view him now.
 

Euclis20

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I mean he did say this…….
“So do I want a championship? Hell
yeah. I don't think that's a question. I don't even
have to answer that.”

He’s playing the game without playing for individual numbers to get that next contract. That’s the type of veteran you want in the backend of your rotation. If Melo never landed in NY with the Knicks I think he would be viewed much differently than many view him now.
I wanted Melo on the roster even before Gallo got hurt, and I definitely want him now. However, my read of that quote is that he wants to win a championship while being in a role he's happy with. He's shown he's fine playing off the bench, but since moving to the bench 2 years ago, he's been 6th and 5th on his respective teams in minutes per game. Injuries may bump him up the line, but he's probably the 8th man on the Celtics. When the games matter, the 8th man becomes a situational player, not a guy guaranteed 20+ minutes. Is that a role he's happy with? I'm not sure.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Guys who can play will get minutes on this team. Ime isn't weird about playing guys. He's only resistant to playing guys who can't play.
I'd add a word here, he's resistant to playing guys that can't play defense. And Anthony can't play defense. I fear if they sign him Ime will staple him to the bench even if his offense is needed and he'll start to pout. If Ime is willing to play him despite his defensive shortcomings, he'd be an asset. Last year was his most efficient offensive season by a mile. He'd be an asset for a team that completely stalled out on offense at times last year.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I hope (and do believe) that if they sign him they will do so with agreement from Brad and Ime about role, and then aligned with Carmelo on that role.

While PP's minutes certainly seemed to reflect concern about defense, Carmelo is different---there is no 'motivating him' around defense he just isn't going to be good at it. So, I don't know whether it is an Ime thing generally (no defense, no play) or more a player-specific choice that reflects development goals as well.
 

Jimbodandy

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I'd add a word here, he's resistant to playing guys that can't play defense. And Anthony can't play defense. I fear if they sign him Ime will staple him to the bench even if his offense is needed and he'll start to pout. If Ime is willing to play him despite his defensive shortcomings, he'd be an asset. Last year was his most efficient offensive season by a mile. He'd be an asset for a team that completely stalled out on offense at times last year.
Yeah that's an excellent point. I think that Ime would absolutely factor that into his minutes. But considering that he presumably signed on to Gallo and played Pritchard plenty, I think that he'd find a role for bench scorer who's limited on defense, especially if that guy is fairly efficient.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I would view it as a low risk move to bring Carmelo in. If he doesn't work out, Stevens could either trade him or buy him out.
So I am just learning this now. Cs could sign Melo to a subsidized vet minimum contact so that $1.8M against the salary cap while Melo will be making like $2.9M (league pays the rest). The catch? If the Cs waive Melo during the season, the contract reverts to the full cost. So I guess the Cs would have to find a trade for Melo and who knows what teams would require to save the Cs about $6.75M in luxury tax payments (taxed at $3.75 per $1.00 of contract).

So no buy-out is possible.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/filling-out-celtics-2022-23-roster-taxing-situation
 

Smokey Joe

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I have a feeling that Melo is perfectly happy where he is and is waiting for the Lakers to figure out what they are doing. In the meantime, his agent is happy to do due diligence by spreading his name around and pressuring the Lakers to get a move on.
The Celtics otoh, are perfectly happy to roll into camp and the first part of the season with what they have and figure out what they actually need before they do anything.
Boring, I know.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Wow. I know Trez has his defensive limitations, but 2/$5.2M for a high-motor 28 year-old who has averaged a career 21.5 pts per 36 on .642 TS (with decent rebounding and passing numbers, and a generally positive on-court impact) seems like steal for Philly.

Did the weed bust really depress his value that much, or is that just the market for 6'-7", defensively limited big men?
 

PedroKsBambino

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A big who is neither a good defender nor can shoot outside is pushing against some trends. Add in the bust and I get it, though I also agree that’s a nice signing for Philly
 

Cellar-Door

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So…Why wouldn’t he stay in LA if he had any game left? It’s not like there’s a plethora of competent NBA players there.
Look at his quote about energy.... LAL is one of the most toxic situations in the league day to day.
I'm not high on Melo, he's played bad minutes on bad teams recently, he can still score a little, but that's it and he's a really bad defender. If he wasn't an All-NBA talent a decade ago we wouldn't be discussing him, his minutes the last few years have been the kind you get from guys on their way to China/Europe.

Wow. I know Trez has his defensive limitations, but 2/$5.2M for a high-motor 28 year-old who has averaged a career 21.5 pts per 36 on .642 TS (with decent rebounding and passing numbers, and a generally positive on-court impact) seems like steal for Philly.

Did the weed bust really depress his value that much, or is that just the market for 6'-7", defensively limited big men?
He also can't play in the playoffs at all. Even then, yeah it's a nice get for PHI just to get solid regular season minutes. He'll definitely opt out of year 2.
 

benhogan

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Nice signing by Philly. Like their offseason. Trez, Melton, House, Tucker is a nice bench

BUT really trust Brad on building a team where everyone knows their role/minutes. Has some greener players that could eventually step up to bench rotation minutes (PP, Hauser)

Still want Melo elsewhere
 
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