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Cellar-Door

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What do we thing a “haul” would be? Assuming just a shit ton of those picks plus maybe Barrett/Toppin?
picks, plus 2 of Toppin/Quickly/Grimes is my guess. And Danny will be holding out for unprotected future Knicks' picks not the mediocre protected picks they got from other teams.
 

djbayko

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Screw Mitchell. I'm reading chuck may be leaving tnt to to call fucking golf. Nooooooo. That'd be disastrous

You want something in the background as you work? Just youtube inside the nba and let it run. Endlessly entertainment.
Oh, damn. I saw a thread about that on Reddit earlier but assumed it was just Chuck joking as he always is. If true, that would indeed be a huge loss.
 

DavidTai

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fwiw I would be surprised if Kyrie is not in the upper 70-80% of NBA players in terms of raw IQ.
Um.... do you mean the upper 20-30 percent of NBA players, or is this a really subtle dig at Irving ranking way, down there with the remaining 70-80 percent ahead of him?

Or is this where you mean 70-80 percentile instead of upper 70-80 percent?
 

radsoxfan

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fwiw I would be surprised if Kyrie is not in the upper 70-80% of NBA players in terms of raw IQ.
Yeah, I phrased my comment poorly. I didn't mean to imply either of them are not smart or not above average IQ.

Just clumsily wondering if Jaylen is a smart guy prone to weird conspiracy theories or other strange beliefs like Kyrie.

Plenty of doctors unfortunately are "smart" and yet still anti-vax or have other odd thoughts.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, I phrased my comment poorly. I didn't mean to imply either of them are not smart or not above average IQ.

Just clumsily wondering if Jaylen is a smart guy prone to weird conspiracy theories or other strange beliefs like Kyrie.

Plenty of doctors unfortunately are "smart" and yet still anti-vax or have other odd thoughts.
I have some sympathy for the Black community when it comes to vaccines, and given Jaylen's activism, I suspect he has a deep lack of trust of traditional power structures, which probably includes medicine. Jaylen more than most I'm sure knows a lot of history behind this.

That being said - and not going V&N as I know this is verboten - I personally hope very strongly that Jaylen's strong connections to Berkeley (as stated in the talk he gave) and the various faculty and leaders would lead him to conclude that sometimes science is just science and this would win the day on the vaccine issue. I guess a large part of me is hoping that I never find out because if Jaylen were unvaccinated, I'd be very disappointed.
 

Jimbodandy

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I have some sympathy for the Black community when it comes to vaccines, and given Jaylen's activism, I suspect he has a deep lack of trust of traditional power structures, which probably includes medicine. Jaylen more than most I'm sure knows a lot of history behind this.

That being said - and not going V&N as I know this is verboten - I personally hope very strongly that Jaylen's strong connections to Berkeley (as stated in the talk he gave) and the various faculty and leaders would lead him to conclude that sometimes science is just science and this would win the day on the vaccine issue. I guess a large part of me is hoping that I never find out because if Jaylen were unvaccinated, I'd be very disappointed.
FWIW, I think that Jaylen was being generally supportive of a guy who did the right thing (got vaccinated) but still laments that the choice wasn't really his to make if he wanted to keep being paid. People are human, and Wiggins (despite my disagreeing with him about vax hesitancy) was being honest and transparent about not liking having his hand forced. It's a forgivable sin IMO, and Jaylen's "like" wasn't indicative of a "yeah man, vaccinations suck" take as much as a pat on the back to a guy who's baring his soul. At least to my eyes.

I'm as pro-vax as anyone and still understand why people grumble about having to take one to keep working. I'm glad that they have to, and I'm glad that they complied. But I understand not being psyched that folks are making health decisions for you kind of. It's not like Wiggins joined a class action suit or petitioned the circuit court or something.
 
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Devizier

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Staying grounded is a challenge for any pro athlete; doing so while being lauded for your intelligence is harder still. It’s actually impressive that Jaylen has generally steered clear of nonsense like concussion water.
 

jezza1918

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I have some sympathy for the Black community when it comes to vaccines, and given Jaylen's activism, I suspect he has a deep lack of trust of traditional power structures, which probably includes medicine. Jaylen more than most I'm sure knows a lot of history behind this.

That being said - and not going V&N as I know this is verboten - I personally hope very strongly that Jaylen's strong connections to Berkeley (as stated in the talk he gave) and the various faculty and leaders would lead him to conclude that sometimes science is just science and this would win the day on the vaccine issue. I guess a large part of me is hoping that I never find out because if Jaylen were unvaccinated, I'd be very disappointed.
I have a vague recollection of discussing his vax status back in March when the Toronto game happened. Per this article - https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2022/03/08/nba-boston-celtics-jaylen-brown-ted-talk-march-2022/ - he gave a TED Talk at the 'Quin House in Boston late Winter. Here is their Vaccination Policy. Based on that I'd feel pretty comfortable saying you wont end up disappointed. Though I pretty much agree with your entire post, for the record.
 

the moops

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Lakers should just throw in the 2 picks and THT. Getting Turner and Hield would be a nice get. You get another 2 or 3 year run until Lebron retires then you just wait out the next 8 years while you suck. Or maybe they could flip AD for some draft capital at that point.
 

mauf

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djbayko

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Yeah, and JJ Redick would be a lot worse if he was born and played back then.

I think the problem with this debate whenever it comes up is that people are arguing different things. We should be able to agree that athletes are always getting better but that doesn’t at all diminish what was accomplished in the past. Because otherwise, we should look down on the athletes of today, since they’ll no doubt be inferior to future athletes.
 
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Cellar-Door

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Sorry if this is being discussed elsewhere…

View: https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1550628897427017729?s=20&t=-zVKpuTvAvcWr6U-lOZ8zg



I mean, kudos to Jerry West for still having a sharp trash-talking tongue at his advanced age, but as much as I love Cousy, Redick isn’t wrong. Yesterday’s stars would be great ballers if they played today, but the average player was a lot worse in the 1950s and 1960s, or even in the 1980s, than he is today.
I Mean sure in the sense that people always get bigger and better that's why you evaluate guys against their competitors.

Also though in particular with the Kyrie/Cousy stuff that started this all... The rules were so different that like 80% of what makes Kyrie good wasn't legal then
 

lovegtm

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Sorry if this is being discussed elsewhere…

View: https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1550628897427017729?s=20&t=-zVKpuTvAvcWr6U-lOZ8zg



I mean, kudos to Jerry West for still having a sharp trash-talking tongue at his advanced age, but as much as I love Cousy, Redick isn’t wrong. Yesterday’s stars would be great ballers if they played today, but the average player was a lot worse in the 1950s and 1960s, or even in the 1980s, than he is today.
Probably the average guy is better now than in the 1980s, but the late 70s/early 80s are when you watch games and are like "oh yeah, those guys could totally play now."

There were some really freak athletes in that era. I'm sure they'd take better care of themselves now and play longer, but I don't know that the peaks would be that different.
 

DannyDarwinism

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It’s not just size/athleticism/conditioning though, kids today are identified so early (and funneled to the AAU circuit) that they end up with much more actual time spent playing competitively and practicing skills. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the average 20 year old coming into the league today has spent twice the amount of time with a basketball in his hands than the average 20 year old from 40 years ago. Shooting from distance, handling and defense from replacement level players is miles better than what it was in the 80s.

I don’t think it’s fair to denigrate a guy based off of cross-era comparisons, and there are absolutely guys you could pluck from the past and plop into the present who’d still be great, but, for example, I think the top, say, half dozen teams right now would wipe the floor with the 86 Celtics. Those guys would just be lost against the defense of the current squad, and wouldn’t have the perimeter quickness to deal with the spacing problems that the good modern teams present.
 

Fred in Lynn

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The only issue I have with West’s commentary is that he attacks Redick’s career rather than his argument. To be fair, I think West touches on the differences in training and facilities that contribute to difficulties in making cross-generation comparisons.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It’s not just size/athleticism/conditioning though, kids today are identified so early (and funneled to the AAU circuit) that they end up with much more actual time spent playing competitively and practicing skills. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the average 20 year old coming into the league today has spent twice the amount of time with a basketball in his hands than the average 20 year old from 40 years ago. Shooting from distance, handling and defense from replacement level players is miles better than what it was in the 80s.

I don’t think it’s fair to denigrate a guy based off of cross-era comparisons, and there are absolutely guys you could pluck from the past and plop into the present who’d still be great, but, for example, I think the top, say, half dozen teams right now would wipe the floor with the 86 Celtics. Those guys would just be lost against the defense of the current squad, and wouldn’t have the perimeter quickness to deal with the spacing problems that the good modern teams present.
I agree that kids get a lot more coaching these days than they used to but kids used to play a lot more unorganized ball than they do now. So while I agree kids today have much more practice is some skills - shooting and dribbling - I'm not sure they've spent that much more time with a basketball in their hands. Also, skills are really geared toward the current game that is being played so kids today shoot a lot better but kids in the 1980s had much better post games (for example).

Finally, we've discussed the 1986 Cs question and if they were playing today's rules, yes the 86 Cs would get wiped out but if they were playing without a 3P line (remember, the NCAA didn't institute the 3P line until the 1986-87 seasons), IMO the 1986 Cs would kill any modern team. But agree that it's super hard to compare.
 

Tony C

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The only issue I have with West’s commentary is that he attacks Redick’s career rather than his argument. To be fair, I think West touches on the differences in training and facilities that contribute to difficulties in making cross-generation comparisons.
I thought that was what was great about it. That's some damn good trash talking by West, much better than if he'd politely disagreed. And he actually ended on what is really the substantive point: it's just disrespectful to Cousy. Obviously players now are physically better, but that's just evolution not some reason to diss previous players.
 

snowmanny

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I agree that kids get a lot more coaching these days than they used to but kids used to play a lot more unorganized ball than they do now. So while I agree kids today have much more practice is some skills - shooting and dribbling - I'm not sure they've spent that much more time with a basketball in their hands. Also, skills are really geared toward the current game that is being played so kids today shoot a lot better but kids in the 1980s had much better post games (for example).

Finally, we've discussed the 1986 Cs question and if they were playing today's rules, yes the 86 Cs would get wiped out but if they were playing without a 3P line (remember, the NCAA didn't institute the 3P line until the 1986-87 seasons), IMO the 1986 Cs would kill any modern team. But agree that it's super hard to compare.
If Bird, Ainge, Wedman, Sichting and McHale had been practicing three-pointers since they were 12 and were encouraged to take them that would be a bloodbath every night.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If Bird, Ainge, Wedman, Sichting and McHale had been practicing three-pointers since they were 12 and were encouraged to take them that would be a bloodbath every night.
Could say the same about Jordan, Pippen. There are some teams that would give the C' a run for their money and even beat them quite a few times if they ran it 10 times.
 

snowmanny

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Could say the same about Jordan, Pippen. There are some teams that would give the C' a run for their money and even beat them quite a few times if they ran it 10 times.
Well, Bird and Ainge particularly were better 3P and FT shooters than Jordan and Pippen and would have benefited more (shooting-wise) than the Bulls stars from the modern philosophy. McHale turned into a really good FT shooter and eventually made some three-pointers and I think if he were coming up today and was coached to develop that weapon he would be completely uncoverable.

Not implying the Bulls teams wouldn’t be very dangerous as well or that Jordan wouldn’t have adapted skillfully to anything thrown at him.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Well, Bird and Ainge particularly were better 3P and FT shooters than Jon and Pippen and would have benefited more (shooting-wise) than the Bulls stars from the modern philosophy. McHale turned into a really good FT shooter and eventually made some three-pointers and I think if he were coming up today and was coached to develop that weapon he would be completely uncoverable.

Not implying the Bulls teams wouldn’t be very dangerous as well or that Jordan wouldn’t have adapted skillfully to anything thrown at him.
Ainge was marginally better. 84.6% to 83.5%. Both are really good FT shooters though. Bird was at another level at 88.6%.

Pippen, yeah, 70.4% FT% shooter for his career. He could have went either way. He did have a few good years shooting the 3 but that may have been when the NBA moved the line in. I'd have to research.

But Reddick is also talking about a much bigger gap than C's and Bulls. They played in different eras but those eras were probably more similar to each other than the one today. The 3 ball era has really changed everything.
 

TripleOT

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If there was a way for the 1986 and 2022 Celtics to play each other, I’m taking the 1986 Celtics. The 2008 Celtics would also beat the 2022 Celtics, probably because of a superior bench.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Woj nuke at 2:30am? Sheesh...

EDIT: it's Woj, but he must be being used by the Nets trying to drive up an offer on KD, right? Right?
 
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kazuneko

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Woj nuke at 2:30am? Sheesh...

EDIT: it's Woj, but he must be being used by the Nets trying to drive up an offer on KD, right? Right?
If the Nets really want to trade Durant and the price is coming down you could see how the Cs might be interested. I don’t think there is any reason to believe that the Cs would all of a sudden be more interested otherwise. After all, they had a great offseason and are still favored for the championship.
I’m sure they’d happily trade Brown, White and a 1st for Durant, but I I don’t see how they’d suddenly be willing to do Brown, White, three 1sts and 2 swaps.
 
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lovegtm

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The main reasons the Celtics could be interested, if this is at all real, are:

1. They think Jaylen is somewhat likely to leave in UFA

2. They aren't comfortable paying Jaylen 55-60M/yr on a supermax, which (I think?) he'd be eligible for if he makes All-NBA. Jaylen making All-NBA in the next 2 years is entirely conceivable, particularly if the team is elite.

Edit: yeah, looks like Jaylen is eligible for supermax extension next summer if he makes All NBA.

If you're not comfortable offering him that, then it makes sense to poke around Durant.
 
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RedOctober3829

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Key points in the story:
—The Celtics appear no closer to acquiring Durant than others in discussions with the Nets, but Boston's ability to include All-Star forward Jaylen Brown as a centerpiece in offers does help to make the team formidable in its pursuit, sources said.

—The Miami Heat, Phoenix Suns and Toronto Raptorshave been well-known to have varying degrees of interest in Durant, but the Celtics have also been in regular contact with the Nets, sources said.

—There are no deals believed to have traction for Durant, and no team has yet to reach the significant threshold that the Nets have set to trade one of the league's most talented players, sources said. The Nets' posture on a potential trade has been largely unchanged: They want a massive return that potentially includes multiple unprotected first-round picks, pick swaps and impactful players for Durant, sources said.

The Celtics consider All-NBA forward Jayson Tatumoff limits in any trade talks, but Boston is able to construct a package for Durant that could include Brown and as many as three unprotected first-round picks (2025, 2027 and 2029) -- and two pick swaps (2024 and 2026). Brown, 25, has two years and $56 million left on his current contract.

Not sure why all of this qualifies as new news if a trade isn’t close.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The gigantic unknown is whether they fear Jaylen may leave; we simply have no idea, but I'm sure they have some sense of that, at least high/low/med risk assessment.

If Jaylen wants to stay, or even if you think it's a very open question, I simply wouldn't trade Jaylen for a 33 year old Durant---not even straight up (acknowledging that cap-wise you can't do that anyway). That may be a minority opinion but I like what is here and also the fit and timeline. Even if you are uncertain, you've got two years to run and a lot of reason to believe his interest in being here will be higher then than it is now. So for me, you'd pretty much need to believe he's gone to deal him for Durant.

Durant is amazing, and I realize that betting on a couple years of he and Tatum together with the rest of the strong roster in place is an awfully appealing option as well...it's nice to be where Celts are on this.
 

JFK35

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I was in the camp of “go for it” on a Durant trade. But the more I think about it - Durant is 34. He maybe has 1 more good year left before he starts going down hill.

if they don’t win it in that year - they’ve likely given up a LONG period of consistent title contending (assuming they keep jt/jb) …
and godforbid he has another major injury..

So I’m firmly against it now
 

RedOctober3829

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C’s offered Brown/White/picks but Nets want Smart and another rotation player instead of White. Shams says the Celtics are serious players in this.

To me, this smells like they’re going to meet in the middle and get a deal done.

“As of right now, the Celtics have emerged as a serious possibility as a landing spot for Durant. They have tremendous interest in bringing him and view him as a piece that could take them over that final hurdle. Although there is work to be done, there is a deal to be had that would suffice the Nets’ overwhelming ask.”

https://theathletic.com/3446562/2022/07/25/celtics-offer-jaylen-brown-package-for-kevin-durant-the-latest-on-donovan-mitchell-and-more-inside-pass/
 

Jed Zeppelin

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If Jaylen doesn’t plan to stay in Boston, KD provides enormous value over JB. If Jaylen would stay in Boston…KD provides enormous value over JB.

I am scared but titillated. The defensive upgrade alone is large and the offensive upgrade is enormous (I think some people are underestimating both, frankly) without disrupting the construction of either as long as he would buy into the system.

Edit: And I say all this as a true Jaylen fanboy.
 

PedroKsBambino

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If Jaylen doesn’t stay in Boston, KD provides enormous value over JB. If Jaylen would stay in Boston…KD provides enormous value over JB.

I am scared but titillated. The defensive upgrade alone is large and the offensive upgrade is enormous (I think people are underestimating both, frankly) without disrupting the construction of either as long as he would buy into the system.

Edit: And I say all this as a true Jaylen fanboy.
But that's part of the problem---Durant, as great as he is, didn't want to "win" in GS playing a sharing system. I don't know what the idea was in NJ, but it hasn't worked. While I recognize his on-court game is something that can work wtih almost anyone, you just have to wonder about the buy-in.

It's an intriguing choice, and the team knows vastly more about what Jaylen's goals are than we will...as well as whether the under-the-hood JT/JB dynamic is good, bad, or something in between
 

Ed Hillel

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At this point, it’s gotta happen or there’s a real strong risk Jaylen will get mad and leave anyway in 2 years. The sides are quite close. It’s happening.
 
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Jed Zeppelin

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But that's part of the problem---Durant, as great as he is, didn't want to "win" in GS playing a sharing system. I don't know what the idea was in NJ, but it hasn't worked. While I recognize his on-court game is something that can work wtih almost anyone, you just have to wonder about the buy-in.

It's an intriguing choice, and the team knows vastly more about what Jaylen's goals are than we will...as well as whether the under-the-hood JT/JB dynamic is good, bad, or something in between
Maybe the NJ experience was a little humbling. And if he was unhappy with the perception of his GS teams that absolutely dominated while he was healthy, well, I guess I would be fine with him being similarly unhappy here with a similar outcome.

I would love to have this core win a title together and think they have a great chance to do it if healthy. But this bulk of the current roster + KD goes from tenuous odds-on favorites to overwhelming favorites overnight. I’ll be happy with the team either way.
 
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Petagine in a Bottle

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I thought Jaylen’s desire to leave was fake news? Either way, seems like these rumors aren’t going to convince him to stay so you almost have to try to go through with this no? And quick, scrub the site of everything mean we said about KD.
 

Mooch

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But that's part of the problem---Durant, as great as he is, didn't want to "win" in GS playing a sharing system. I don't know what the idea was in NJ, but it hasn't worked. While I recognize his on-court game is something that can work wtih almost anyone, you just have to wonder about the buy-in.

It's an intriguing choice, and the team knows vastly more about what Jaylen's goals are than we will...as well as whether the under-the-hood JT/JB dynamic is good, bad, or something in between
Except KD did win in GS. Twice.

If a Durant deal brings even one championship, it’s worth it.
 

tbb345

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A few Celtics bear writers, most notably Karalis, seem very confident that another team leaked this to spur movement from another team…Karalis pointed out the time stamp and that Woj must have just received it and wanted to get it out immediately.

Others have pointed out that all of Brad’s moves have come with no leaks or whispers before the deal was made

The only thing I will point out is that the offers Shams included in his article seem pretty specific, as if one side or person wanted to establish a value baseline maybe?
 
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