Offseason hirings & firings

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

 
Especially considering Dusty Baker was the other reputed front runner. Bullet dodged.

 
I don't think that Dusty Baker is quite the devil that everyone makes him out to be. Is he good with pitchers, nope but he does get his teams to the post season at a frequent rate. He's close to being 200 games over .500, has won over 90 games eight times (and had two seasons of 89 wins) and won Manager of the Year three times. I think that he'd be a pretty good choice for Washington because he has a track record of bringing veteran-laden teams that are close to the post season. 
 
But at the same time, I wouldn't want him anywhere near a young team like the Sox. 

 

[Toe Nash]

 
I don't think that Dusty Baker is quite the devil that everyone makes him out to be. Is he good with pitchers, nope but he does get his teams to the post season at a frequent rate. He's close to being 200 games over .500, has won over 90 games eight times (and had two seasons of 89 wins) and won Manager of the Year three times. I think that he'd be a pretty good choice for Washington because he has a track record of bringing veteran-laden teams that are close to the post season. 
 
But at the same time, I wouldn't want him anywhere near a young team like the Sox. 

Well, a good number of those teams had Barry Bonds putting up anywhere from 6 - 12 WAR, which is a pretty nice head start.
 
The Cubs were a very solid team who he ran into the ground by destroying Prior and Wood. Maybe that happens to them anyway, but he didn't help and his use of them was really criminal. This was only ten years ago.
 
Seems like he did a good job with the Reds, and seemed to learn his lesson with abusing pitching, but he also went 2-7 with them in the postseason.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Well, a good number of those teams had Barry Bonds putting up anywhere from 6 - 12 WAR, which is a pretty nice head start.
 
The Cubs were a very solid team who he ran into the ground by destroying Prior and Wood. Maybe that happens to them anyway, but he didn't help and his use of them was really criminal. This was only ten years ago.
 
Seems like he did a good job with the Reds, and seemed to learn his lesson with abusing pitching, but he also went 2-7 with them in the postseason.

 
You're definitely right about a few things:
 
1. The Prior and Wood things, he didn't do them any favors which is why I wouldn't want him near the Sox right now. But, he also had really young arms in Cincinnati (Arroyo was the oldest) and Arroyo was the only one who pitched over 220 innings (220 exactly in 2009, when he was 32). 26-year-old Johnny Cueto was the next closest in 2012 when he threw 217 innings. I don't think that he overly taxed these Reds arms. So like you said, maybe he learned something. 
 
2. As far as having Barry Bonds, well, yeah, managers win with good players. Tito had Pedro, Schilling, Manny and David Ortiz in 2004. He had Schilling, Ortiz, Pedroia  and Papelbon in 2007. Joe Torre had Mariano Rivera during his championships. Tony LaRussa won with the star studded A's of the late 80s and an impressive Cardinals cast in the 00s. The Nationals have a fantastic club and should have been in the postseason this year. 
 
Like I said, Dusty Baker is the dude where all SABRE guys throw up their hands and scream, "No way! Not him!" and all I'm saying is that I don't think Baker really deserves that. He's not Miller Huggins, but he's also not Matt Williams either.  

 

[Al Zarilla]

 
You're definitely right about a few things:
 
1. The Prior and Wood things, he didn't do them any favors which is why I wouldn't want him near the Sox right now. But, he also had really young arms in Cincinnati (Arroyo was the oldest) and Arroyo was the only one who pitched over 220 innings (220 exactly in 2009, when he was 32). 26-year-old Johnny Cueto was the next closest in 2012 when he threw 217 innings. I don't think that he overly taxed these Reds arms. So like you said, maybe he learned something. 
 
2. As far as having Barry Bonds, well, yeah, managers win with good players. Tito had Pedro, Schilling, Manny and David Ortiz in 2004. He had Schilling, Ortiz, Pedroia  and Papelbon in 2007. Joe Torre had Mariano Rivera during his championships. Tony LaRussa won with the star studded A's of the late 80s and an impressive Cardinals cast in the 00s. The Nationals have a fantastic club and should have been in the postseason this year. 
 
Like I said, Dusty Baker is the dude where all SABRE guys throw up their hands and scream, "No way! Not him!" and all I'm saying is that I don't think Baker really deserves that. He's not Miller Huggins, but he's also not Matt Williams either.  

But Huggins' teams didn't do much until his bosses raided the team to the north, especially a certain spindly legged hot dog eater. Ha, didn't know Home Run Baker spent his last six years with the Yankees. Learn something new every day.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

If he'd gone to Washington, he'd have the closest thing th NL has seen to pre-roid Barry.

 

[Bigpupp]

Bill Shaikin ‏@BillShaikin  22s22 seconds ago
Ex-#RedSox GM Ben Cherington hired as ... executive in residence by Columbia University's sports management program.

They're going to have a kick ass farm team in a few years.

 

[valentinscycle]

Bill Shaikin ‏@BillShaikin  22s22 seconds ago
Ex-#RedSox GM Ben Cherington hired as ... executive in residence by Columbia University's sports management program.
 
 
 

 
Is that like Bard's program in investment banking?

 

[Ramon AC]

Don't sleep on the Bard economics department.

 

[AB in DC]

Not official yet, but it looks like Mattingly to the Marlins.

 

[soxhop411]

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors 1m1 minute ago
The #Nationals will name Bud Black their next manager, @JamesWagnerWP reports. Read more: http://bit.ly/1NC5dX5

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Shi Davidi @ShiDavidi
Sources: Alex Anthopoulos leaving #BlueJays after turning down extension: bit.ly/20ctrOt
 
Seemed inevitable with Shapiro being hired as team president.  Sounds a lot like Cherington's departure, actually.  They reportedly offered him an extension which he turned down.  He apparently didn't like the perceived loss of power/influence, whether it was real or not.

 

[Snoop Soxy Dogg]

How can these teams misread their top execs in this way? Isn't anybody talking to them before making these types of decisions - assuming of course, that they want to keep them? This is like management 101. These guys (Anthopoulos, Cherington, etc.) are young, smart, have some pride, some savings in the bank, can get a job elsewhere, even if it's for less money. What do you think is going to happen when you bring in somebody to take over some (or all) of their responsibilities? At least, Cherington, that makes kind of sense; team performance was terrible, so it's like great if he stays, too bad if he leaves. What's the justification for pushing Anthopoulos out?
 
A lesson here seems to be that teams are hiring these young, smart GMs - but that doesn't really mean that they trust them with organizational vision or major decisions. Look around, and the real power is still with experienced old hands. 

 

[RG33]

Shi Davidi @ShiDavidi
Sources: Alex Anthopoulos leaving #BlueJays after turning down extension: bit.ly/t.

Maybe he wants to be 3rd base coach for the Sox?

 

[jsinger121]

Rick Westhead ‏@rwesthead  2h2 hours ago
Source: In their 1st & only meeting, new Jays prez Mark Shapiro scolded Alex Anthopolous & staff for trading so many top prospects this yr

 

[soxhop411]

So where would AA go? No other GM jobs open.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Maybe he wants to be 3rd base coach for the Sox?

The fact he traded so many top prospects in the last few years for Price and Dickey makes me believe that pitching coach is the way to go.

 

[Snoop Soxy Dogg]

This is so peculiar. AA leaves/gets fired presumably because he traded too many prospects, Cherington leaves/gets fired because he didn't trade enough of them.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Anthopolous is getting out at the right time. If the Jays win it all next year, it's still "his team" and now he doesn't have to be there to pick up the pieces when the offensive core starts falling apart. This probably wasn't a terribly difficult decision for him, all things considered.
 
 

This is so peculiar. AA leaves/gets fired presumably because he traded too many prospects, Cherington leaves/gets fired because he didn't trade enough of them.

 
It's almost like different teams are in different situations and have different views on their recent performance.

 

[rembrat]

Or that if you're a GM and your owners bring in a new "President" who use to be a GM it might be time to get the fuck out. 

 

[soxhop411]

Eric Fisher ‏@EricFisherSBJ  20s20 seconds ago
Blue Jays confirm AA departure, say they are "disappointed he has chosen not to accept our five-year contract offer"

 

[soxhop411]

 
 

 

[DeadlySplitter]

While it looks like Shapiro will try to rebuild the farm, they have a contending core still for next year, he has to at least somewhat go for it for the time being

 

[RedOctober3829]

 

Kyle Glaser ‏@KyleAGlaser  1m1 minute ago
#Padres will introduce new manager at 3 PM today. Reports that it is #Diamondbacks third base coach Andy Green
 

 

[RedOctober3829]

 

Jeff Wilson ‏@JeffWilson_FWST  2m2 minutes ago
Sources: Pitching coach Mike Maddux won't return to #Rangers in 2016. Developing ...
 

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

So while he was busy holding his departing conference call (instead of a press conference), Sporting News announced Anthopoulos as the MLB Executive of the Year.  Ouch.

 

[soxhop411]

Chris Cotillo ‏@ChrisCotillo  2m2 minutes ago
Marlins have dismissed Dan Jennings, according to @flasportsbuzz.

 

[soxhop411]

Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale  4m4 minutes ago
Dan Jennings and #Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria's relationship soured when Jennings played rookie Marcell Ozuna, going against Loria's wishes.
 
LOLMARLINS 

 

[soxhop411]

In a stunning twist, the Nationals manager job still isn't completely settled, and may still go to Dusty Baker, and not Bud Black.

The team was actually apparently leaning toward Baker today, according to people familiar with the situation.

There were believed to be be contract issues with Black, although the team liked Baker very much from the star.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/25361729/stunning-twist-nats-still-may-hire-dusty-basker-as-manager

 

[soxhop411]

@AdamKilgoreWP: Heard Nats offered Black something in range of two years and team options, and he balked. Context: Mattingly signed a 4-year deal in Miami.

@AdamKilgoreWP: There's a strain of thought that the Lerners don't have a grasp on standard pay for managers. Still sorting out. That's a possible factor.

Dumpster fire


@BNightengale: Black accepted #Nats job last week, but no idea it would pay less than $2 million over 2 years. http://usat.ly/1NnnF7w

 

[nattysez]

Assuming that Dusty agrees that he'll listen to the pitching coach in terms of pitch counts/pitcher usage, I think this might wind up being a best-case scenario for the Nats. 

 

[jose melendez]

Assuming that Dusty agrees that he'll listen to the pitching coach in terms of pitch counts/pitcher usage, I think this might wind up being a best-case scenario for the Nats. 

Why would we assume that?

 

[semsox]

Yea, I don't see this working out for the Nats at all. Were I a Nats fan, I'd much rather have Black running the ship. 

 

[pjr]

Washington Nationals ‏@Nationals 29m29 minutes ago
The #Nats have named Dusty Baker manager: http://atmlb.com/1Slc60E  #DustyInDC

 

[jose melendez]

Dusty clearly is good at getting people to play hard for him, and he's won lot of ballgames.  I could see it being a decent choice in the world of win now.  However, for building long term, I'd be nervous.  His teams seem to decline quite a bit in the years following him.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

Why would we assume that?

 
Because that is what happened in Cincinnati. His pitchers had two appearances in the Top 15 in Pitcher Abuse Points in six seasons in Cincy - Bailey was 12th once, and Cueto was 15th once.
 
I mean, heck, it's basically what happened in San Francisco given the context of the time - Felipe Alou worked Jason Schmidt much harder than Baker did and Shawn Estes was gonna break for anybody given how inefficient he was.
 
The entirety of "DUSTY BAKER IS AN ARM KILLER" rests on Wood and Prior. Zambrano came through it fine, after all. Well, Wood and Prior both had terrible motions (although Will Carroll and the stathead community in 2003 circlejerked endlessly about how perfect Prior's windup was), Wood had already hurt himself before Baker came around, and Baker's usage probably put the Cubs into the playoffs. Joe Borowski was their closer that year and they made the wildcard by one game. I am skeptical anybody would have managed the Cubs differently, and skeptical that anything would have saved Wood and Prior. You can't fire 95mph fastballs with power running through your elbow and expect to still have one.
 
Baker kinda stinks as a tactical manager, which might be the difference between him, Bud Black, and the Natinals not underachieving next year, but he's not an arm killer (and whose arm is there to kill on the staff anyway? You're talking a largely veteran ballclub in win now mode), and he's at least a good clubhouse manager. The Nats do need that.

 

[jose melendez]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's a defensible hire for a team in win it now mode.  Certainly it's much better than insane Cal Ripken talk.
 
I do wonder if the Nats had fallen into full on fighting the last war mode though.  They go from affable Davey johnson, to hard ass Matt Williams, to affable Dusty.  Next up Bobby V?

 

[loshjott]

WPost on the situation.
 
"After Bud Black negotiations leave the Nationals shifting to Dusty Baker, the Lerner family has a fiasco on its hands"

 

[JoePoulson]

It's official:
 
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14042490/washington-nationals-hire-dusty-baker-manager

 

[dcmissle]

"Let's get the cheaper spark plugs for the new Porsche ..."

Here is the deal -- based on what he know today. That is precisely the mindset. They preferred Black over Dusty. Black balked at contract terms.

Reportedly, Nats opening offer to Black was 1 year, $1.6 MM.

Commercial real estate owners cannot wrap minds around salaries for MLB managers. They ignore that this is a drop in the bucket. These are folks who argue about the 199th item on the punch list at a construction site.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

"Let's get the cheaper spark plugs for the new Porsche ..."

Here is the deal -- based on what he know today. That is precisely the mindset. They preferred Black over Dusty. Black balked at contract terms.

Reportedly, Nats opening offer to Black was 1 year, $1.6 MM.

Commercial real estate owners cannot wrap minds around salaries for MLB managers. They ignore that this is a drop in the bucket. These are folks who argue about the 199th item on the punch list at a construction site.

 
So they wanted to make Black a lame duck manager the second he signed ? Bizarre.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

What's Baker getting then? I mean, no matter your opinion of him, we're talking a guy with more wins than any active big league manager besides Bruce Bochy. And he's definitely somebody with an ego.
 
I'd be surprised if he accepted the same terms.

 

[soxhop411]

Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale  37s37 seconds ago
Dusty Baker is getting less than half of what he earned with the #Reds with his 2-year deal with #Nats, but given substantial incentives.

 

[Toe Nash]

 
 
The entirety of "DUSTY BAKER IS AN ARM KILLER" rests on Wood and Prior. Zambrano came through it fine, after all. Well, Wood and Prior both had terrible motions (although Will Carroll and the stathead community in 2003 circlejerked endlessly about how perfect Prior's windup was), Wood had already hurt himself before Baker came around, and Baker's usage probably put the Cubs into the playoffs. Joe Borowski was their closer that year and they made the wildcard by one game. I am skeptical anybody would have managed the Cubs differently, and skeptical that anything would have saved Wood and Prior. You can't fire 95mph fastballs with power running through your elbow and expect to still have one.

This is revisionist history. The Prior use was really awful. He threw 9 games of >120 pitches in 2003, including 5 in September and multiple games that weren't particularly close. Borowski was pretty solid that year and the team had 3 other relievers with an ERA+ above 119. 
 
Wood threw 12 (!) games with 120 or more pitches. 4 of those came in September. And him missing a year already was more reason to be easy on him, for a more reasonable manager.
 
There was also Matt Clement, whose arm was apparently hamburger after Baker was through with him.
 
Maybe he learned and his time in Cincy shows that, in which case, good for him. But the scorn early in his career is well-deserved in my opinion.

 

[paulb0t]

More of a rumor, but:
 
@theScoreMLB
Report: Dodgers interviewed Dave Roberts for manager job http://thesco.re/1MeUUJjT
 
https://twitter.com/theScoreMLB/status/661581245189521408

 

[glennhoffmania]

"Let's get the cheaper spark plugs for the new Porsche ..."

Here is the deal -- based on what he know today. That is precisely the mindset. They preferred Black over Dusty. Black balked at contract terms.

Reportedly, Nats opening offer to Black was 1 year, $1.6 MM.

Commercial real estate owners cannot wrap minds around salaries for MLB managers. They ignore that this is a drop in the bucket. These are folks who argue about the 199th item on the punch list at a construction site.

 
If that's the case then what is Rizzo's role?  Seems like he should be talking some sense into them.

 

[dcmissle]

Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale  37s37 seconds ago
Dusty Baker is getting less than half of what he earned with the #Reds with his 2-year deal with #Nats, but given substantial incentives.

I understand Dusty here. Where is he in his career? How much has he made? What is he lacking?

Black -- different situation altogether.

This makes no sense -- and I mean none -- if Black was your first choice all along. Look at their payroll. Consider their desire to keep Harper.

 

[Dewey'sCannon]

I live in DC, and root for the Nats as my NL team.  And I think Dusty is a terrible hire - too old school.  n the plus side, as a "player's manager" maybe he helps in the clubhouse and improves the team chemistry, but even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's learned his lesson about abusing pitchers, he's still a terrible tactical manager in terms of lineups, bullpen usage and bunting.  Anti-analytics, unless somehow the old dog has learned some new tricks.
 
The Nats really underperformed last year - partly due to injury, party due to Matt Williams.  They are likely to do better next year, and would probably do so with anyone BUT Matt WIlliams at the helm.  But if they do better, I think it will be in spite of Dusty, not because of him.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

This is revisionist history. The Prior use was really awful. He threw 9 games of >120 pitches in 2003, including 5 in September and multiple games that weren't particularly close. Borowski was pretty solid that year and the team had 3 other relievers with an ERA+ above 119. 
 
Wood threw 12 (!) games with 120 or more pitches. 4 of those came in September. And him missing a year already was more reason to be easy on him, for a more reasonable manager.
 
There was also Matt Clement, whose arm was apparently hamburger after Baker was through with him.
 
Maybe he learned and his time in Cincy shows that, in which case, good for him. But the scorn early in his career is well-deserved in my opinion.

 
I did some more research and I do partially retract the Prior and Wood claims. He really ran them hard, much, much harder than I remembered. Wood threw 141 pitches in 7 innings (!!!) in a game in May 2003 - Baker would be arrested if he did that now. It wasn't that he was letting guys throw 130 pitches over 9 or something semi-defensible, but that he was letting them 125 in 6 innings. 
 
In a bizarre way, he didn't manage like he was ignoring pitch counts. He managed like he was ignorant of pitch counts. I think he genuinely measured fatigue by innings rather than pitches.
 
Efficient Giants starters like Mark Gardner and Kirk Reuter weren't tested whatsoever (I think Reuter only threw 120+ pitches for Baker 2-3 times in his career), while inefficient pitchers like Shawn Estes, Livan Hernandez, and Kerry Wood were just horribly fragged. I think Estes once threw almost 130 pitches for *FIVE* innings. Carlos Zambrano was worked pretty hard, but definitely on a level below Wood and Prior. Possibly because Zambrano was a sinkerball pitcher and struck out fewer guys. 
 
Matt Clement's in that vein too. Matt Clement only threw 120+ pitches in three starts out of 62 for Baker, so I don't believe Baker is responsible for Clement. One of those starts was a 127 pitch complete game as well, and for a 29 year old starter, I just don't see that as abuse.
 
In any case, he definitely seems to have learned something from that experience with the Cubs, because he basically handled Johnny Cueto and Homer Bailey fine. 

 

[RingoOSU]

 
More of a rumor, but:
 
@theScoreMLB
Report: Dodgers interviewed Dave Roberts for manager job http://thesco.re/1MeUUJjT
 
https://twitter.com/theScoreMLB/status/661581245189521408
 

I was going to say Dave looks so old here... then I looked it up and found out he's just shy of a year older than me....

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

 
I did some more research and I do partially retract the Prior and Wood claims. He really ran them hard, much, much harder than I remembered. Wood threw 141 pitches in 7 innings (!!!) in a game in May 2003 - Baker would be arrested if he did that now. It wasn't that he was letting guys throw 130 pitches over 9 or something semi-defensible, but that he was letting them 125 in 6 innings. 
 
In a bizarre way, he didn't manage like he was ignoring pitch counts. He managed like he was ignorant of pitch counts. I think he genuinely measured fatigue by innings rather than pitches.
 
 

I guess this, to me, is the question - how much did people even consider pitch counts back in 2003? I honestly don't remember. I know only a few years later there'd be a lot more evidence on it, but I do wonder if we're judging 2003 Baker by more current standards. In other words, would many of those managing in 2003 have proceeded differently in the same situation?

Again, this was like 12 years ago, so my memory is fuzzy. I seem to recall that I personally only became aware of "pitch counts" as a concept because of Pedro Martinez (and Grady Little), but maybe I'm remembering wrong.