Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches
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Yup, that seems like the short term move. Mayo has also mentioned that Strange could play C so he could also be in the mix whenever he returns.
Yeah, and with nothing else to go on, you might guess that Bryan Hudson is slightly higher up the depth chart than the fantastically-named Sincere Haynesworth (who I want to make the league just for his name)
Haynes has been on the Pats practice squad since late August, when the Lions cut him from theirs. Haynesworth was sitting at home early last week doing who-knows-what when the Pats called and added him to their practice squad, having been out of football since the summer
It says something that it even with those two in hand, the Pats went and got Brown off the Raiders practice squad and promoted him to the 53-man roster and the start. Now, the path of least resistance is probably to promote Haynes if the team is positive enough about what they've seen. If they again go the Brown route and grab someone from another team, that's telling in a different way.
Here's a reset of the OL, crossing through people who are released, left the team or on IR:
Onwenu, G/T
Jordan, G
Robinson, G
Jacobs, T
Lowe, T
Thomas, T/G
Sow, G
Brown, C
8 OL, breaking down this way:
- 1 C
- 4 G
- 2 T, one of whom may be out for a bit
Another thought: I'm a little encouraged that this team seems to be willing to move on from things that aren't working out, and try something new. Things would be a lot more grim if they got attached to their own prior decisions and weren't willing to course-correct.
They signed Chuks as an experiment to see if he could play LT. Maybe he believed them, maybe he thought he'd end up back at RT. Who knows. But they put him there, and then when he stunk up the joint they benched him. Then when he was less than fully motivated to do what they wanted he was gone.
They signed Leverett to see if he could turn into a competent C. When that wasn't going well and they saw a better option they took it and Leverett is gone.
I have to assume that if Wallace comes back he's going to get the start at RT. And if that goes well, Jacobs might be out the door pretty quickly.
Teams are going to miss on assessments, and gamble on guys who don't work. This last off season they made a bunch of low-cost / low-risk gambles. And they're already moving on from the ones who aren't working out, and trying new ones.
There's an accountability angle here as well. This sort of things sends a pretty clear message along the lines of "Hey, you gonna do your job badly and we see someone else who might do it better? We're going to give them a shot"
This sort of approach is going to make the season rocky and chaotic at times. But if I'm right about the approach, I'd rather they cycle guys this way then the alternative.
They signed Chuks as an experiment to see if he could play LT. Maybe he believed them, maybe he thought he'd end up back at RT. Who knows. But they put him there, and then when he stunk up the joint they benched him. Then when he was less than fully motivated to do what they wanted he was gone.
They signed Leverett to see if he could turn into a competent C. When that wasn't going well and they saw a better option they took it and Leverett is gone.
I have to assume that if Wallace comes back he's going to get the start at RT. And if that goes well, Jacobs might be out the door pretty quickly.
Teams are going to miss on assessments, and gamble on guys who don't work. This last off season they made a bunch of low-cost / low-risk gambles. And they're already moving on from the ones who aren't working out, and trying new ones.
There's an accountability angle here as well. This sort of things sends a pretty clear message along the lines of "Hey, you gonna do your job badly and we see someone else who might do it better? We're going to give them a shot"
This sort of approach is going to make the season rocky and chaotic at times. But if I'm right about the approach, I'd rather they cycle guys this way then the alternative.
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I suppose that’s the glass half full way of looking at it.
Alternatively, one could look at their off-season acquisitions and be dismayed that the vast majority of their trash heap pickups are, in fact, trash (Okorafor, Leverett, Watts with Osborn and Hooper trending that way). I guess it’s good they cut bait with some of them early but it’s certainly discouraging that of the ~24 new guys they added to the roster, Maye, Slye and Gibson are the only ones who look useful. Hawkins and Hooper have played their roles fairly poorly. Pettus has shown a little bit. But the rest are either forgettable fodder (Dial, Curtis Jacobs, Z.Thomas, Demontrey Jacobs, Bell, Eric Johnson, etc) or have disappointed (Polk, Osborn, Wallace, Robinson, Baker, Okorafor, Leverett)
If you add that many new faces to a fairly weak roster and struggle to find many (even slight) upgrades, it’s certainly concerning.
So, same as last season, only with a better QB at the helm. That's a tough one to swallow, unless the quasi-GM is being upfront with management, and not fans, about their needle-in-a-haystack approach to the rebuild.
The issue was that none of the FA LTs wanted to sign here and the vets out there are either injured or also are terrible. Drafting Wallace was a different issue. They probably should have drafted either Rosengarten or Paul who have graded out ok in pass pro. At least those guys can potentially solve a spot for you and in the long term (because you don’t draft for the first 6 games of the season) they might be average to above average starters. No idea why they swung for Polk at 37. Been saying that for a while. As for pick 68, they also could have gone OG there. Or edge. Or BPA.
Wolf to me either isn’t living in reality with LT or knows he is in a shit sandwich of a position so he is going to spin everything to the public. I am not sure which one it is. Could be a little of both.
Wolf to me either isn’t living in reality with LT or knows he is in a shit sandwich of a position so he is going to spin everything to the public. I am not sure which one it is. Could be a little of both.
Ben Brown being signed and plugged in as starting C is close to achieving BB's "I can get a guy from Foxborough High School" bit.
So, you can argue that the point I'm trying to make is uninteresting, or a distraction, from a discussion of what the front office was doing last offseason, and how angry we should all be about it. Fair enough.
That said, my post had nothing to do with how the front office approached the last off season. I was addressing how the coaching staff and front office respond to who performs and who doesn't during the season we're in. Since, now that we're here, that seems to me worth paying attention to. And relevant to the news of the last few days with Brown's arrival and Leverett's departure.
I'm going to politely say "no thanks" to the invitation to re-litigate what Wolf and the front office did last summer. Once the season started I've kinda intentionally avoided that topic since we've had something like 10,000 posts on it already and it's not clear to me that anyone has had anything new or interesting to say on the topic for a while.
Obviously, YMMV. Carry on with what interests you...
At this point, is there any better option than rummaging through anyone out there like baseball teams cycle through relievers? Beats standing pat with a garbage hand.
I think Leverett was definitely a case of "if he can't play C why keep him over a bunch of young guys at guard", also.... maybe Strange gets his clock started this week?
My point was that the front office is using the same strategy as last year - no significant OL additions in the off-season, and then late preseason and in-season additions. With BB and his coaching staff, this wasn't very successful, but they also had QBs incapable of making protection easier by making plays with their feet. Maybe Maye will do a better job.
This first week was a mixed bag, with some exceptional escapes and scramble passes, and one sack-fumble loss. What we didn't see though were planned QB draws or rollouts. I'm hoping we see that next week vs. JAX and their horrendous defense.
I am still shocked that they cut him because he had experience. They see these guys everyday, they know better than us what these guys can do.
As to the bolded, the latter follows from the former and is more borne of necessity than strategy. But I think they looked at the market, and, rightly or wrongly, decided that they weren't going to do any better than Onwenu in terms of big ticket additions. And thus far things have turned out on the bottom end of what was foreseeable. Of the 12 guys who have played, there was one failed signing (Okorafor) and 5 guys who have missed at least a game due to injury.
Andrews: out for the season; as of now has missed 3 full games and most of a third
Jordan: so far, has missed one game and parts of 2 others due to injury
Sow: injured to start the year and missed 3 games
Wallace: on IR but I think he is eligible to return; so far, has missed 2 full games and parts of 2 others
Lowe: has missed 2 full games and parts of 2 others.
Altogether, six games played, so they have lost 11 out of 30 man games of OL play,, without even getting into parts of games missed. Andrews, Wallace, and Lowe each got hurt early and missed most of a game, so the real number is probably more like 14 of 30 man games lost.
I doubt teams are going to be beating down his door to resign him, so I think he could be back if injuries continue.
But I think the bottom line is that they like the practice squad centers better than him at center, and they like the guys they have better than him at guard, and they can only carry so many OLs on the 53-man. Simple numbers game.
There is probably a "future" component to it, too. Current guard depth:
1. Onwenu, their best OL, who will only not be playing guard if he's forced over to T again.
2. Jordan, their best pass blocking G this season
3. Sow, second year 4th round pick with promise
4. Robinson, rookie 4th round pick with promise
5. Thomas, waiver claim who is listed at G but was pressed into service at T
If they don't like Leverett at C or T (something they have never even appeared to consider), he is at best their #6 guard, #7 if Strange is ever ale to return, and no team can carry that many guards.
Hey, just so you know, the draft community watched his tape and now he is getting top 25 buzz. When he crushes the combine that stock is only going to go up.
That kinda feels like a good news / bad news situation...
But thanks for passing the word! Does this draft community all grab beers together somewhere when they watch tape? Or is this a part of the intranet I haven't discovered yet?
Sidetrack here. What are the mechanics of how they chose Brown? Is this from pro scouting team input? Older draft rankings that had brown as a person of interest? Friend of Matthew Judon (too late there)? How visible is a practice squad player for another team? Nobody is scouting LV practices, I would assume.
Brown’s FB IQ fit is extremely impressive with such a short acclamation period.
Brown’s FB IQ fit is extremely impressive with such a short acclamation period.
Pats sign C Lecitus Smith from the Packers practice squad to the 53-man roster. 6th round pick two years ago who has bounced around a few practice squads and now back in the show
No Sincere Haynesworth for Disco. He was released earlier today to make room for a CB
No Sincere Haynesworth for Disco. He was released earlier today to make room for a CB
Yes and no.
Center is... I don't know, they're sort of the "Catcher" position in football? (I played catcher but didn't play football) Obviously people who have played it / know about how each team handles the position in the NFL can correct me, but my understanding is they're reading the defense, calling out protections, understanding what all the other guys on the line are doing and adjusting, and then of course snapping the ball -- something that (like catching) is almost invisible when done well and only noticed when it goes wrong, but is actually difficult to do well and consistently.
Especially when you have a green rookie QB under center, you want to put him in a position to succeed, and having a reliable partner in front of him who a) knows the playbook inside and out, and b) is experienced at reading defenses and protecting him is critical.
If a 7th inning reliever is crappy, no biggie, it's not like that 7th inning reliever at the back of the bullpen is deciding how to approach the other team's lineup all game and telling other relievers how to approach hitters in the 8th and 9th.
But there's a reason you don't see too many teams cycle through random AAA Catchers throughout the season.
Probably all of the above.
He was likely on the radar at draft time, he was a fringe draftee (Zierlein had him as a 5th/6th rounder) as an SEC multi-year starter (he was injured his final year) but wasn't selected, then like pro scouting picked him up for Bengals pre-season (he got hurt again) and then he was on the watch list throughout his next couple preseasons as a "interesting but we don't have a spot for him" same as other teams, which is why he hit some PS spots.
Draft Twitter. I have a ghost account I use to browse it but not participate.
I actually liked Lecitus quite a bit coming out as a center. I had him as a fourth rounder.
He is smart, tough, and athletic enough. Hopefully he can stick around.
Of course!
Again, I dont really know how NFL style offense — like the Pats — use their center.
But it’s part of why I was texting my friends in ALL CAPS when Mayo announced over the weekend they were signing a guy off the Raiders practice squad, flying him to Foxboro on a red eye, giving him 1 practice with the Pats, and then starting him in Maye’s 1st start.
It would be like, I dunno, the Mirabelli police escort from Logan to catch Wakefield while changing in the car… except if instead of Mirabelli it was a catcher from the Angels AAA system making his MLB debut, and Wakefield was our #1 pitching prospect and the entire hope of the franchise? And the batters were charging the mound every at bat? … How badly am I torturing this analogy?
@Eddie Jurak I feel like Sow and Robinson would be promising but for their pass pro deficiencies. Both guys are incompetent against twists/stunts, and with blitz pickup. If they weren't so one-dimensional I could get behind that but for now they seem destined for the bench. A lot can change but given these are issues they had all throughout their college career.
I am going to count Jake Andrews out because he can't stay healthy and honestly he was a big ol' reach when they selected him... next year they might want 4/5 new starters on the OL. That might not be feasible so perhaps they just address one of the tackle spots and either center or LG and then the next year come back and take on RT and the other guard or center spot they don't address this year.
It would be nice if Sow, Robinson, Strange, or... Michael Jordan or any of these recent additions turned into something but for the most part the offensive line requires more premium ingredients for it to be a stew.
I am going to count Jake Andrews out because he can't stay healthy and honestly he was a big ol' reach when they selected him... next year they might want 4/5 new starters on the OL. That might not be feasible so perhaps they just address one of the tackle spots and either center or LG and then the next year come back and take on RT and the other guard or center spot they don't address this year.
It would be nice if Sow, Robinson, Strange, or... Michael Jordan or any of these recent additions turned into something but for the most part the offensive line requires more premium ingredients for it to be a stew.
Here's my starry eyed optimist view:
- They leave Onwenu at RG where he thrives and thus lock up that spot.
- Strange comes back to play at or above his previous level to lock up LG. Also assumes he can stay on the field. Sigh.
- Brown is a diamond in the rough who gets even better than he showed in his first game. Thus removing the reliance on Andrews' return next year.
- Wallace comes back healthy. They put him at RT where he excelled in college and he finds success with Onwenu protecting his inside shoulder.
- Lowe stays healthy for the rest of the year. They find a blue-chip LT in the draft.
- Jordan, Sow and/or Robinson for the IOL bench.
- Jacobs returns to the bench where he develops to the point where his size can play.
Love it, but odds of all that happening?
I will say the in tape I've seen (mostly Lazar's Maye breakdown) what I didn't see last game was the free runners coming through middle where the QB just has no chance. Maybe that's a result of Robinson and Sow being on the bench, or some semblance of continuity starting to settle in. Or maybe Houston just didn't run the stunts that gave the Pats fits earlier. Could also be that with Maye's mobility the Texans were more concerned with containment than pressure.
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I think there's also a middle ground outcome here which isn't actually that bad for 2025. They don't get a blue chip LT in the draft but they can sign a free agent like Bolles on a two year deal who will provide competent LT play. Wallace and Lowe show a bit of improvement and fill the RT and swing spots in some order. They then either take a swing on another T in the second or third or get a versatile interior OL who can compete with Strange, Brown, and the rest and add to quality depth in that area.
Its not a very good OL draft at the top so I think its fairly likely that going BPA leads us in a different direction in the first round. But a scenario like the above might still produce an acceptable OL in 2025, good enough at least for the rest of the offense to keep developing, especially if the group can stay healthier.
We starry-eyed optimists don't believe in odds. We believe in certainty!
Now I'm heading to Views and News . . .
People win the Powerball with marginally worse odds of your dream becoming reality.
Then I'm heading to the Cumberland Farms now! I had no idea the Powerball was so easy!
Nice piece on our new C, including a good 2 minute clip of OL play last game. Mr. Brown looked pretty solid.
I know very little about NFL OL play, but this thread is my favorite lately. Appreciate all the knowledge y'all bring.
https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/10/16/24270610/patriots-ben-brown
I know very little about NFL OL play, but this thread is my favorite lately. Appreciate all the knowledge y'all bring.
https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/10/16/24270610/patriots-ben-brown
Wow, that really was some excellent video to watch. Pick a lineman, and go through the 2 minutes each time. Brown handled himself well throughout - straight up against the nose, turning to align left or right, pulling to create a hole, and working double-teams. Here's hoping for a diamond in the rough. Hell, I'll take zirconia to the lumps of coal we've been getting.
Yeah nice.
Watching that Brown video you can see what a monster he is at C. Like as big as the biggest guys on the field.
Onwenu looks pretty good too. 72 at LT was good except for one clean miss on a sack. 75 RT looked lost run blocking on several occasions.
Lowe apparently did not make the trip to London and so is out vs. Jacksonville
So, I'm guessing we're back to...
On of these decades, we'll get a healthy and functional OLine
So, I'm guessing we're back to...
- LT: 'Trey Jacobs
- LG: Jordan (if healthy) or Sow
- C: Dixon
- RG: Robinson (shudder)
- RT: Onwenu (sigh)
On of these decades, we'll get a healthy and functional OLine
Would that really be better than the guys who played after Lowe went out last week (Thomas/Jordan/Brown/Big Mike/Jacobs)? Seems like that group had some success at least in the passing game.
Sounds like the Pats think not:
https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/10/17/24272881/michael-onwenu-tackle-patriots-jaguars
Evan Lazar: #Patriots injury report on Thursday: CB Marcus Jones was upgraded to limited. Stevenson (foot) and Lowe (ankle) did not participate. QB Drake Maye (knee) remains a full participant.
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1847009047503135178
Lowe did not make the trip, which means they only have 3 tackles (Onwenu and Thomas who are both guards really, and Jacobs who has struggled).
MJ was limited but did make the trip. So the guards are MJ, Sow, Robinson.
At C they have Brown and the guy they just claimed.
It's not a good set of options. Hopefully MJ can go.
View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1847009047503135178
Lowe did not make the trip, which means they only have 3 tackles (Onwenu and Thomas who are both guards really, and Jacobs who has struggled).
MJ was limited but did make the trip. So the guards are MJ, Sow, Robinson.
At C they have Brown and the guy they just claimed.
It's not a good set of options. Hopefully MJ can go.
The funny part is the amount of time I spent trying to convince myself that I was being an idiot. Then once I realized I was right about Brown's name, I spent more time figuring that Brown must have choked on (someone else's) vomit, been placed on IR and replaced by Dixon. Then when I could find no record of Brown's injury, I spent more time trying to find a new signing named Dixon.
Sorry about that
I don't want the brain I had as a young man-- that guy could really be an idiot-- but the brain I had in middle age was nice. I can feel it starting to go away, especially when I'm tired, which is a bummer
