Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches

[Cellar-Door]

My general feeling is...

The opportunities this offseason to upgrade Vederian Lowe out of the gate were:
1. Sign Tyron Smith.... as most here assumed, he wasn't interested.
2. Guess right on your pick of the bad starter/okay swings on the market.... nope, Okorafor was pretty bad then quit (Jonah Williams looks like the only one who hasn't been terrible, moved positions, etc. Other than Trent Brown, but he was never coming back)
3. Draft a OT at #3 (Alt?).... never happening when you have a shot at a very good QB prospect.

What I think happens is they draft one next year in the 1st, some of the 2nds this year end up better than Wallace, at least 1 ends up worse, and we hear for years about how we should have made a trade up (without price of course) for whichever is the best (with no mention of the worst). It's how all draft discourse goes.

Also....

https://www.patriots.com/news/patriots-sign-t-jalen-mckenzie-to-the-practice-squad

Added Jalen McKenzie to the PS today, layed LT and RT at USC, undrafted FA spent 2022 on the SEA PS, 2023 on the LV PS, was in camp and played pre-season in LV.

 

[Zedia]

Calvin Anderson, who the Pats put on IR and released at cutdown, just signed with the Steelers. I assume putting him on IR/released was a bookkeeping move, but was he not worth keeping around?

Oh, and of course the Steelers signed him because their 1st round tackle (Fautanu) had to go in IR.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Calvin Anderson, who the Pats put on IR and released at cutdown, just signed with the Steelers. I assume putting him on IR/released was a bookkeeping move, but was he not worth keeping around?

Oh, and of course the Steelers signed him because their 1st round tackle (Fautanu) had to go in IR.

I would guess they might have if they knew Okorafor would implode, but he was pretty far down the depth chart in pre-season and didn't look healthy, IR cut made sense.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I can promise you that the one guy I would have pounded the table for, and who I thought was a cut above the rest of the day 2 guys, was Patrick Paul. I won’t selectively remember things though. I also would have preferred Rosengarten, Blake Fisher, Yale kid, and Coleman (by a hair) over Wallace. Same for Sua (by a hair). Of those 6 it’s likely only 2 of them will work out but who knows. My preferences were in order. Giant caveat that none of us have insights into character and medicals.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I can promise you that the one guy I would have pounded the table for, and who I thought was a cut above the rest of the day 2 guys, was Patrick Paul. I won’t selectively remember things though. I also would have preferred Rosengarten, Blake Fisher, Yale kid, and Coleman (by a hair) over Wallace. Same for Sua (by a hair). Of those 6 it’s likely only 2 of them will work out but who knows. My preferences were in order. Giant caveat that none of us have insights into character and medicals.

yeah not referring to you, we all know you do a ton of draft work and stand by it. But I also think we know this board is always flooded with "why didn't we take the guy who panned out, it was obvious he would, the GM is a moron for taking the other guy" every year.

Personally I really wanted Sua, and likely all of them over Wallace, but at the same time, I generally don't do hypo trades, so even if all are better... without knowing the possibility and cost of trading up it's impossible to judge.

 

[jk333]

Personally I really wanted Sua, and likely all of them over Wallace, but at the same time, I generally don't do hypo trades, so even if all are better... without knowing the possibility and cost of trading up it's impossible to judge.

But they didn’t need to trade up; they just didn’t need to draft Polk and with that pick or even a lower pick could have taken a tackle. It’s fair that all the 2nd round tackles are disappointing so far but the pats offense is in a tougher spot next offseason with being forced to target OT like many other teams.

@NextBigThing8184 said it well, at least a 2nd round tackle may improve this season and give hope for next season.

 

[Cellar-Door]

But they didn’t need to trade up; they just didn’t need to draft Polk and with that pick or even a lower pick could have taken a tackle. It’s fair that all the 2nd round tackles are disappointing so far but the pats offense is in a tougher spot next offseason with being forced to target OT like many other teams.

@NextBigThing8184 said it well, at least a 2nd round tackle may improve this season and give hope for next season.

So could Wallace. But yes I guess you could argue with they should have reached by 20 picks to go OT, I don't think they should given the state of the roster and longterm needs at multiple positions

Edit- people are acting like Wallace was some UDFA, he was the top OT on many boards where he was drafted in the 3rd and some reputable people had him above a number of the 2nd rounders (Zierlien notably). He has just as much chance to develop as any of the others. Now, he might not have the ceiling of some because he lacks the physical gifts of some, but most guys never get close to their ceilings.

 

[SMU_Sox]

yeah not referring to you, we all know you do a ton of draft work and stand by it. But I also think we know this board is always flooded with "why didn't we take the guy who panned out, it was obvious he would, the GM is a moron for taking the other guy" every year.

Personally I really wanted Sua, and likely all of them over Wallace, but at the same time, I generally don't do hypo trades, so even if all are better... without knowing the possibility and cost of trading up it's impossible to judge.

Fair. I don't really like the they should have taken X player over Y unless you do something like they should have taken an OT instead and here are the next 3-4 guys who went (or 1-2 if there is a big gap). I agree with you though you can't do a 1:1 in general. I think the Arif conversation was insightful for if they reached on days 2 and 3. If you want to criticize the front office because these guys didn't work out that's fair game. Day 2 and 3 are crapshoots and prone to SSSs but there are ways to increase or decrease your odds and the front office potentially decreased it.

Going forward, the OT class this year is sadly nowhere near as good as it was last year unless someone has a career year in college. All of them have warts.

Free agent wise, I like Alaric Jackson as a potential fit for this offense. You could always sign one of the older FAs as a stop-gap too if you don't love your options in the draft.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Fair. I don't really like the they should have taken X player over Y unless you do something like they should have taken an OT instead and here are the next 3-4 guys who went (or 1-2 if there is a big gap). I agree with you though you can't do a 1:1 in general. I think the Arif conversation was insightful for if they reached on days 2 and 3. If you want to criticize the front office because these guys didn't work out that's fair game. Day 2 and 3 are crapshoots and prone to SSSs but there are ways to increase or decrease your odds and the front office potentially decreased it.

Going forward, the OT class this year is sadly nowhere near as good as it was last year unless someone has a career year in college. All of them have warts.

Free agent wise, I like Alaric Jackson as a potential fit for this offense. You could always sign one of the older FAs as a stop-gap too if you don't love your options in the draft.

You don't like Campbell or Banks???

 

[SMU_Sox]

You don't like Campbell or Banks???

Both of them might be best as guards. Banks is more of a gap/power fit and his lateral movement in pass pro has it's issues. Campbell has length issues and while his anchor is better than last year he has had an up and down season so far. His tape last year vs FSU and Bama and their 1st round edge rushers was alarmingly bad. Now, granted, he was a freshman going up against older guys so some of that is to be expected but he is having issues closing the door this year too as well as anchoring.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Both of them might be best as guards. Banks is more of a gap/power fit and his lateral movement in pass pro has it's issues. Campbell has length issues and while his anchor is better than last year he has had an up and down season so far. His tape last year vs FSU and Bama and their 1st round edge rushers was alarmingly bad. Now, granted, he was a freshman going up against older guys so some of that is to be expected but he is having issues closing the door this year too as well as anchoring.

Super-early. Wouldn't be totally surprised to see Jones (LSU) or even Ersery push for the top OT spot. Savaiinaea is probably a 1st it seems.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Savaiinaea is definitely an OG. Aireontai Ersery is my dude. I love him... but most likely a mid first rounder. Jones to me is more of a mid to late first or early 2nd kind of talent. He should test well though. He just doesn't have the quickness that Campbell does.

 

[SMU_Sox]

My favorite thing about Ersery is that he has ridiculous foot quickness for a guy his size, 6'6" 330. He is by far the best zone//outside-zone//wide-zone blocker in the draft and he is a behemoth! If I had to pick a strategy for them it would be to trade down and take Ersery. He can start day 1 for you but his pass pro might be a little hairy. Still, with the right coaching and with his size and athleticism and tenacity he might end up being my OT1 (he is my OT1 at the moment) with the highest ceiling too.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Sow was back as a full participant today. Wallace Full. Lowe limited,

Absent:

TE Hunter Henry, LB Ja’Whaun Bentley, CB Alex Austin (ankle)

Limited: OT Vederian Lowe (knee), OG Michael Jordan (knee), LB Anfernee Jennings

Returned: OG Sidy Sow

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

My favorite thing about Ersery is that he has ridiculous foot quickness for a guy his size

If/when you get to it, I'd be curious what you think of Oregon's LT, Connerly. He also looks to have the kinda fast/quick/good feet that you want for a zone blocking scheme. But the one time I was watching Oregon this year I wasn't doing anything like a real scouting assessment, so I don't have much sense of the guy. I mean, other than a preliminary "long arms, quick feet, nice pass blocking"

Mock drafts have him in the third round right now, so I'm assuming there are warts somewhere.

 

[SMU_Sox]

If/when you get to it, I'd be curious what you think of Oregon's LT, Connerly. He also looks to have the kinda fast/quick/good feet that you want for a zone blocking scheme. But the one time I was watching Oregon this year I wasn't doing anything like a real scouting assessment, so I don't have much sense of the guy. I mean, other than a preliminary "long arms, quick feet, nice pass blocking"

Mock drafts have him in the third round right now, so I'm assuming there are warts somewhere.

Hey thanks for the reco... I checked him out tonight in 2023 vs Washington CC game and Utah. He is a fit and I would be surprised if he didn't go in round 1-2. He is a little undersized height was at only 6'4" but he is 315 and has a thick bottom area (I know, I know, hahas aside, but it matters). In 2023 he was a true sophomore and a first year starter. Super impressed here. When it comes to zone blocks he is a natural minus his combos lack power. His use of hands are underdeveloped in pass pro and he had some anchor issues. All of these things are completely normal for a first year starter and a younger one at that. He is a fantastic fit if you plan to run a lot of OZ/WZ. I think the negatives are more related to his age but lack of polish and lack of power and needs help anchoring are the drawbacks right now. What impressed me the most was how good he was vs twists and stunts - super alert and handled them like a vet. Nice find!

Quick edit: he has the athleticism that you want in a round 1 tackle. He has enough size and length too. He has the potential to be a top 25 pick. I look forward to watching his 2024 campaign.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

So could Wallace. But yes I guess you could argue with they should have reached by 20 picks to go OT, I don't think they should given the state of the roster and longterm needs at multiple positions

Edit- people are acting like Wallace was some UDFA, he was the top OT on many boards where he was drafted in the 3rd and some reputable people had him above a number of the 2nd rounders (Zierlien notably). He has just as much chance to develop as any of the others. Now, he might not have the ceiling of some because he lacks the physical gifts of some, but most guys never get close to their ceilings.

The biggest argument against Wallace compared to some of the guys they passed on for Polk is that he never played LT.

he very well might make a serviceable RT. Doesn’t really solve the problem they have since they certainly can’t flip Onwenu to LT.

they needed a LT badly in the off-season and their solution was a raw kid in the 3rd who has never played the position, and a veteran with attitude issues who was cut by an OL desperate team who also never played LT.

I just don’t know what Wolf was expecting. Clearly he hoped Okorafor could handle LT while Wallace developed - presumably he paid Onwenu to play RT and thus drafted Wallace hoping for a LT in an ideal world.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

He has the athleticism that you want in a round 1 tackle. He has enough size and length too. He has the potential to be a top 25 pick. I look forward to watching his 2024 campaign.

Cool

I don't watch a ton of college ball, but I've had my antennae up for guys who look to have the body/physique/athleticism to be high-ceiling LTs at the NFL level, but who might be late bloomers for some reason and so won't require a top 15 pick

Will let you know if the bat signal goes off about anyone else...

 

[Cellar-Door]

The biggest argument against Wallace compared to some of the guys they passed on for Polk is that he never played LT.

he very well might make a serviceable RT. Doesn’t really solve the problem they have since they certainly can’t flip Onwenu to LT.

they needed a LT badly in the off-season and their solution was a raw kid in the 3rd who has never played the position, and a veteran with attitude issues who was cut by an OL desperate team who also never played LT.

I just don’t know what Wolf was expecting. Clearly he hoped Okorafor could handle LT while Wallace developed - presumably he paid Onwenu to play RT and thus drafted Wallace hoping for a LT in an ideal world.

I mean, half the guys they passed on were RT in college too. Wallace practiced extensively on both LT and RT, just didn't get game time because Fashanu was arguably the best LT in the country. People also tend to overrate the flipping sides thing. There are some differences, but the position is not fundamentally different, Paul is the only one with significant time at LT, even Suamataia played more games at RT than LT.

In terms of needing a LT... yeah it's been covered a million times, but there weren't many opportunities to get a starting LT, the guys in the 2nd aren't NFL starting caliber now any more than Wallace is, and in FA there were between 1 and 3 who had LT experience and had a chance at being decent, depending how you slice it, 2 had no interest in being here, Williams was pretty bad. Taking a shot at moving a RT made sense because there wasn't another short term solution with any long term upside. They'll try again next offseason, sometimes that's all you can do when you have other needs (QB) that leave you without any good options.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I mean, half the guys they passed on were RT in college too. Wallace practiced extensively on both LT and RT, just didn't get game time because Fashanu was arguably the best LT in the country. People also tend to overrate the flipping sides thing. There are some differences, but the position is not fundamentally different, Paul is the only one with significant time at LT, even Suamataia played more games at RT than LT.

In terms of needing a LT... yeah it's been covered a million times, but there weren't many opportunities to get a starting LT, the guys in the 2nd aren't NFL starting caliber now any more than Wallace is, and in FA there were between 1 and 3 who had LT experience and had a chance at being decent, depending how you slice it, 2 had no interest in being here, Williams was pretty bad. Taking a shot at moving a RT made sense because there wasn't another short term solution with any long term upside. They'll try again next offseason, sometimes that's all you can do when you have other needs (QB) that leave you without any good options.

I don’t know that the “flipping sides thing” is overrated. I’m not going to pretend to be Dante Scarnecchia or an OL expert but NFL history is littered with guys who were good (or great) RT and never could play LT. Or were passable RT and decidedly bad LT. There’s obviously ways to scheme around it and plan for it if you need to plug a RT in at LT (like we saw with Cannon in his emergency LT duties) and some guys seem to play both sides well (Trent Brown) but trying to plug in guys with no game experience at LT instead of trying to find a guy with experience there was a bad plan IMO. Vollmer was a terrific RT and mediocre at LT. Kaczur was solid enough at RT and not at all suited for LT. Onwenu isn’t a guy who could play LT (etc).

As for “try again next offseason”, yeah of course but free agency is likely going to be similar (overpaying for mediocre or below average talent, next year’s version of Eluemunor or Jonah Williams) or you’re forced to take a guy (maybe reach) in the first round.

it’s just bizarre - and worrisome - to me that Wolf was so passive at the position which is arguably the 2nd most valuable and 2nd most scarce offensive position out there. I would have preferred a couple better (or additional) bites at the proverbial apple. And drafting a low ceiling WR like Polk over any tackle seemed crazy to me. Tackles are rare. WR with Polk’s skill set are not.

Hell, take a tackle in round 2 and still take another T in round 3 or 4. Tackle is getting to be like QB, just keep taking them until you hit on someone because they’re important and rare.

regardless of how Wallace’s career plays out, not adding another veteran (better or more suited for LT than Okorafor) and not taking a T before the 3rd round was a mistake IMO. I think fundamentally if you go an entire off-season and still end up with Lowe as your starting LT, you’ve erred in evaluation somewhere. He was atrocious last year and not in my wildest dreams would I have thought he’d not only be starting but somehow the best in house option in 2024 despite not really showing much, if any, improvement.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

3. Draft a OT at #3 (Alt?).... never happening when you have a shot at a very good QB prospect.

How much better would they be right now if they had grabbed a tackle at #3 (or traded down a few spots for one)?

Brissett has not been terrible (17th by QBR) and likely would be better with a real LT. There would be less rippling chaos on the line. I think the shot term upgrade would be substantial.

Long term, betting on Maye is still the right move - need to land a top QB to be a legit contender.

 

[lexrageorge]

it’s just bizarre - and worrisome - to me that Wolf was so passive at the position which is arguably the 2nd most valuable and 2nd most scarce offensive position out there. I would have preferred a couple better (or additional) bites at the proverbial apple. And drafting a low ceiling WR like Polk over any tackle seemed crazy to me. Tackles are rare. WR with Polk’s skill set are not.

Hell, take a tackle in round 2 and still take another T in round 3 or 4. Tackle is getting to be like QB, just keep taking them until you hit on someone because they’re important and rare.

regardless of how Wallace’s career plays out, not adding another veteran (better or more suited for LT than Okorafor) and not taking a T before the 3rd round was a mistake IMO. I think fundamentally if you go an entire off-season and still end up with Lowe as your starting LT, you’ve erred in evaluation somewhere. He was atrocious last year and not in my wildest dreams would I have thought he’d not only be starting but somehow the best in house option in 2024 despite not really showing much, if any, improvement.

I think it's likely Wolf and the coaches and scouts just didn't like any of the tackles available in the 2nd round. That may or may not be the correct decision, but if they don't think the players available to draft were all that good, better to put those picks to use elsewhere.

Lowe is not good, but he may very well have a better season than anyone drafted in the 2nd round.

Anyway, it was always going to be a 3-4 year rebuild; too many holes across the offense. The problem now is that their need is so obvious they will be somewhat handcuffed in the draft (assuming there are no answers coming in free agency, which is likely if not guaranteed).

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think it's likely Wolf and the coaches and scouts just didn't like any of the tackles available in the 2nd round. That may or may not be the correct decision, but if they don't think the players available to draft were all that good, better to put those picks to use elsewhere.

Lowe is not good, but he may very well have a better season than anyone drafted in the 2nd round.

Anyway, it was always going to be a 3-4 year rebuild; too many holes across the offense. The problem now is that their need is so obvious they will be somewhat handcuffed in the draft (assuming there are no answers coming in free agency, which is likely if not guaranteed).

So while it may be telegraphed, I would say this....

You don't generally get top LT outside the 1st. So they weren't likely getting one last year, but rather at best getting a guy in the 2nd they thought could be decent long term.

This year they'll have a shot at a higher tier of prospect by taking one in the 1st, or a similar tier as the 2nd last year in the 2nd. As to FA... you'll never get a franchise LT, but....
The upcoming class looks better than this year's was (especially since one of the only "good" LT was Trent Brown who wasn't an option)...
We have gone over how it was basically the not very good Jonah Williams and nothing.....
2025 has...
Bowles, RObinson, Stanley (plus SMith and Brown again), plus the normal assortment of swings, RTs (Moses) fringe starters, high drafted guys who disappointed with injuries, etc.
Whether it will work out... who knows, but this spring should be a better opportunity to address tackle than last year was, both in terms of opportunity to get a young guy with above average starter potential, and the chance to pick up a solid starter vet.

 

[Garshaparra]

The Steelers have lost 1st round pick (20 overall) Troy Fantanu, who'd mostly played RT in their first games. Their solution: Calvin Anderson, who couldn't make the more-OT hungry Pats squad. This level of OT Roulette is so totally wild.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I don't want to derail this but I think you're partially wrong on switching sides being overstated. If you listen to linemen talk about the issue it varies. Some guys will tell you that they just couldn't do it.


I guess @Cellar-Door it depends on your baseline for if it is overstated or not. To me I don't assume you can play both and not equally as well. A lot of guys can eventually switch and many cross-train. But, again, not everyone. It really depends on the individual.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Also, while I pointed out earlier that roughly 2/3rds of the top 16 or so LTs in the league are from round 1 that ratio doesn't apply to RTs and they needed one of them too. Onwenu is not someone you can rely on for RT play. It's playing out of position for him and he's also someone who has struggled with his weight since Michigan. He is also a much better RG than he is a RT. Hopefully we get more data about Caedan Wallace... and I'd like to see them actually give him a shot at RT which he is more likely to slot in at vs LT.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Yeah, I mean, there are two things about moving people around the OLine that I've always had in my head:

• You don't know in advance who is going to be more or less adaptable unless/until they are asked to adapt in game situations
• Muscle memory is big, so getting actual game reps in a new position helps, however more or less instinctive someone is

So, for someone like Caedan Wallace-- who played almost entirely RT in college-- there's no way to know how he's going to take to the switch until you try it for real. Which for us was the Jets game. Honestly, I'd love to see Wallace go back to RT, where he's much more likely to be successful.

For the upcoming draft, if you wanna shift someone around I'd look for the college film and evidence from past games that he could bounce around positions. Of course, most people don't have this.

Edit: what @SMU_Sox said

 

[Cellar-Door]

I don't want to derail this but I think you're partially wrong on switching sides being overstated. If you listen to linemen talk about the issue it varies. Some guys will tell you that they just couldn't do it.
View attachment 89204

I guess @Cellar-Door it depends on your baseline for if it is overstated or not. To me I don't assume you can play both and not equally as well. A lot of guys can eventually switch and many cross-train. But, again, not everyone. It really depends on the individual.

That's fair, I think it depends, I think the idea that a guy is a RT and LT is totally different as a blanket statement that people use is just not accurate. There are a ton of swing tackles across the league, and a lot of guys swap sides without much issue. Not everyone can, but it's far from the impossible task is can be made out to be. It's an individual thing, and usually the guys in question have played or practiced both sides, so a team has at least some idea what they look like on both ends. It's not a simple swap with no issues, but, particularly for guys who have done it or practiced extensively on both sides it is generally not a mountain. Like Wallace.... I don't think the swap of sides was his issue against the Jets, I think it's that he is raw and inexperienced, same reason he wasn't starting at RT earlier.

I do think that for all Wolf talked about him as a LT.... the real hope was to make him a swing tackle behind the vets and then see if he was a LT starter potential by EOY so they knew how highly they needed to prioritize LT in the draft (I'm sure their dream scenario is he turns out to be above average so they can get a McMillan or similar, and pick up a RT top of the 2nd).

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Also, while I pointed out earlier that roughly 2/3rds of the top 16 or so LTs in the league are from round 1 that ratio doesn't apply to RTs and they needed one of them too. Onwenu is not someone you can rely on for RT play. It's playing out of position for him and he's also someone who has struggled with his weight since Michigan. He is also a much better RG than he is a RT. Hopefully we get more data about Caedan Wallace... and I'd like to see them actually give him a shot at RT which he is more likely to slot in at vs LT.

rightly or wrongly, it seems like Wolf paid to keep Onwenu for his RT ability. The entire off-season approach seemed to be based on Onwenu at RT and patching LT with some combo of Wallace, Okorafor or a holdover (Lowe,Anderson etc).

I guess next year they could kick him inside and (theoretically) have 2 of the Sow/Strange/Robinson triumvirate on the bench but that seems like a waste of resources unless they totally give up on Strange (possible).

Wolf’s strategy this off-season seemed to be to pay to retain his best players and figure out how the pieces fit together (if they do at all) some time down the road. It’s the same with paying both Dugger and Peppers despite them not complementing each other well. Onwenu is a great guard and adequate tackle but for the foreseeable future they have better guards than tackles so he’s got to stick at RT. I guess theoretically if they find a LT in the draft and Wallace pans out at RT, kick Onwenu inside but that seems unlikely

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Ouch.

Mike Reiss: Patriots' current OL snapshot

LT: Caedan Wallace (knee/limited), Demontrey Jacobs, Caleb Jones (practice squad), Vederian Lowe (knee/not practicing)

LG: Sidy Sow (ankle/limited), Zach Thomas, Michael Jordan (ankle/not practicing)

C: David Andrews, Nick Leverett, Bryan Hudson (practice squad), Liam Fornadel (practice squad)

RG: Layden Robinson, Thomas, Leverett, Fornadel

RT: Mike Onwenu, Jacobs, Jones, Jalen McKenzie (practice squad)

NOTES: Injury situation foreshadows possible Caleb Jones elevation from practice squad...Jones (6-9, 370) was on NYJ trip along with C Bryan Hudson...49ers DE Nick Bosa often aligns across from LT, making the Patriots' injury situation/personnel at that spot a top concern for team...Veteran Chukwuma Okorafor on reserve/left squad list...Demontrey Jacobs (6-6, 315), who was claimed on waivers from Broncos at roster cutdown, appeared in first career NFL regular-season game last week (12 snaps on final drive)...Cardinals had also attempted to claim Jacobs.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1839284081185497397


That is pretty far down the depth chart at multiple positions:

LT: 3rd string working through injury or 4th string waiver claim; 1st and and string guys are gone or hurt and not practicing

LG: 1st string working through injury (good news if he can go) or 3rd string waiver claim; 2nd string guy who started previous games is injured/not practicing.

C: 1st string, healthy

RG: 1st string rookie, healthy

RT: 1st string highly paid FA who is out of shape, better suited to G, and playing poorly

How many teams would have the left side of their line looking good if their top 2 options at LT and top LG were unavailable? Every guy but Andrews has a major flaw or flaws.

 

[sezwho]

Ouch.

Mike Reiss: Patriots' current OL snapshot

LT: Caedan Wallace (knee/limited), Demontrey Jacobs, Caleb Jones (practice squad), Vederian Lowe (knee/not practicing)

LG: Sidy Sow (ankle/limited), Zach Thomas, Michael Jordan (ankle/not practicing)

C: David Andrews, Nick Leverett, Bryan Hudson (practice squad), Liam Fornadel (practice squad)

RG: Layden Robinson, Thomas, Leverett, Fornadel

RT: Mike Onwenu, Jacobs, Jones, Jalen McKenzie (practice squad)

NOTES: Injury situation foreshadows possible Caleb Jones elevation from practice squad...Jones (6-9, 370) was on NYJ trip along with C Bryan Hudson...49ers DE Nick Bosa often aligns across from LT, making the Patriots' injury situation/personnel at that spot a top concern for team...Veteran Chukwuma Okorafor on reserve/left squad list...Demontrey Jacobs (6-6, 315), who was claimed on waivers from Broncos at roster cutdown, appeared in first career NFL regular-season game last week (12 snaps on final drive)...Cardinals had also attempted to claim Jacobs.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1839284081185497397


That is pretty far down the depth chart at multiple positions:

LT: 3rd string working through injury or 4th string waiver claim; 1st and and string guys are gone or hurt and not practicing

LG: 1st string working through injury (good news if he can go) or 3rd string waiver claim; 2nd string guy who started previous games is injured/not practicing.

C: 1st string, healthy

RG: 1st string rookie, healthy

RT: 1st string highly paid FA who is out of shape, better suited to G, and playing poorly

How many teams would have the left side of their line looking good if their top 2 options at LT and top LG were unavailable? Every guy but Andrews has a major flaw or flaws.

I think even our C may be nursing something with his hip, right? He has to play if at all possible or this house ‘o cards will fully collapse. Scary

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Ouch.

Mike Reiss: Patriots' current OL snapshot

LT: Caedan Wallace (knee/limited), Demontrey Jacobs, Caleb Jones (practice squad), Vederian Lowe (knee/not practicing)

LG: Sidy Sow (ankle/limited), Zach Thomas, Michael Jordan (ankle/not practicing)

C: David Andrews, Nick Leverett, Bryan Hudson (practice squad), Liam Fornadel (practice squad)

RG: Layden Robinson, Thomas, Leverett, Fornadel

RT: Mike Onwenu, Jacobs, Jones, Jalen McKenzie (practice squad)

NOTES: Injury situation foreshadows possible Caleb Jones elevation from practice squad...Jones (6-9, 370) was on NYJ trip along with C Bryan Hudson...49ers DE Nick Bosa often aligns across from LT, making the Patriots' injury situation/personnel at that spot a top concern for team...Veteran Chukwuma Okorafor on reserve/left squad list...Demontrey Jacobs (6-6, 315), who was claimed on waivers from Broncos at roster cutdown, appeared in first career NFL regular-season game last week (12 snaps on final drive)...Cardinals had also attempted to claim Jacobs.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1839284081185497397


That is pretty far down the depth chart at multiple positions:

LT: 3rd string working through injury or 4th string waiver claim; 1st and and string guys are gone or hurt and not practicing

LG: 1st string working through injury (good news if he can go) or 3rd string waiver claim; 2nd string guy who started previous games is injured/not practicing.

C: 1st string, healthy

RG: 1st string rookie, healthy

RT: 1st string highly paid FA who is out of shape, better suited to G, and playing poorly

How many teams would have the left side of their line looking good if their top 2 options at LT and top LG were unavailable? Every guy but Andrews has a major flaw or flaws.

to be fair, the drop from the Pats #1 LT (Lowe) and any backup option is a lot less than just about any other team. Lowe himself is worse than some other teams #2 or 3 option.

Some of these waiver wire guys might actually be better than Lowe anyway. Hard to be worse

 

[lexrageorge]

to be fair, the drop from the Pats #1 LT (Lowe) and any backup option is a lot less than just about any other team. Lowe himself is worse than some other teams #2 or 3 option.

Some of these waiver wire guys might actually be better than Lowe anyway. Hard to be worse

You are vastly understating how bad a lot of #2/#3 left tackles are across the league. And even while the better teams can survive the loss of their starting LT for a couple of games, few could succeed relying on their #3. Lowe would be no worse than a #2 on most teams, and the advanced metrics agree.

 

[cshea]

I think even our C may be nursing something with his hip, right? He has to play if at all possible or this house ‘o cards will fully collapse. Scary

I think Andrews is OK. He popped up on the injury report last week with a hip injury but I think that was short week related. He was limited in practice yesterday but they listed the reason as "not injury related, rest". He sat out or was limited the Wednesday practice prior to week 2 for the same "not injury related, rest" so it seems like he's basically getting a veteran's day off/lighter workload on Wednesday's. They could be fudging of course but he's played 100% of the snaps so far and didn't look limited to my untrained eye last week.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, the ideal version of this line was probably pretty bad. They haven't played a snap together in the regular season, and never will.

The best this line has looked was when they had Onwenu and Sow as the guards with Lowe and Okorafor as the tackles, and Wallace as the swing. Unfortunately with Okorafor leaving, I think even if healthy we may never see Onwenu back at G this season.

 

[sezwho]

I think Andrews is OK. He popped up on the injury report last week with a hip injury but I think that was short week related. He was limited in practice yesterday but they listed the reason as "not injury related, rest". He sat out or was limited the Wednesday practice prior to week 2 for the same "not injury related, rest" so it seems like he's basically getting a veteran's day off/lighter workload on Wednesday's. They could be fudging of course but he's played 100% of the snaps so far and didn't look limited to my untrained eye last week.

Phew, thanks for the deeper dive: I’ll take any possible positivity…I remain hopeful they will stabilize (somewhat) when the injured tackles return to provide something approaching protection at the edge. Without Andrews in the middle of things I’m scared of seeing a lost season.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

LT: 3rd string working through injury or 4th string waiver claim;

to be fair, the drop from the Pats #1 LT (Lowe) and any backup option is a lot less than just about any other team

TBH, I wouldn't mind seeing what Demontrey Jacobs can do at LT against San Francisco.

This has all probably been said around here somewhere before, but Jacobs is a former high school/college DE who switched to OLine late. He played both RT and LT in college, and the scouting report on him was he was a +athlete, with good quickness to get out and make zone blocks, but had sloppy technique and needed more reps. The Broncos had him on their practice squad last year. This is the start of his second year in the league.

Nothing against Caedan, but last week was his first time playing on the left side since high school and while no experiments that give clear results are failures, the results of this one were not what we might have hoped for.

Jacobs has played LT before. If giving him the start also makes us better at a bunch of other positions, by going...

• Jacobs | Sow | Andrews | Robinson | Onwenu | Caedan (as the extra)... or perhaps...
• Jacobs | Sow | Andrews | Onwenu | Caedan

...it might help our offense a lot to have the rest of the line playing better, even if it means we still got LT problems.

You can use TEs and backs to help with problems at a single line position if things are OK elsewhere

 

[SMU_Sox]

I think I've seen enough of Robinson that I would rather potentially have Wallace at RT and Onwenu at RG.

Robinson has the lowest pass blocking efficiency number at OG in the NFL of anyone who has played 50 snaps. Out of 66 total guards he is giving up the highest amount of pressure! Enough is enough. His run blocking is too inconsistent to justify him playing right now.

Let Wallace play the position he has played the last 5 years, same with Onwenu, and see how it looks. Can Wallace not suck as badly at RT as Robinson has at RG? You'd hope so.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yeah, the ideal version of this line was probably pretty bad. They haven't played a snap together in the regular season, and never will.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think I've seen enough of Robinson that I would rather potentially have Wallace at RT and Onwenu at RG.

Robinson has the lowest pass blocking efficiency number at OG in the NFL of anyone who has played 50 snaps. Out of 66 total guards he is giving up the highest amount of pressure! Enough is enough. His run blocking is too inconsistent to justify him playing right now.

Let Wallace play the position he has played the last 5 years, same with Onwenu, and see how it looks. Can Wallace not suck as badly at RT as Robinson has at RG? You'd hope so.

I think I'd like to see a Lowe/Sow/Andrews/Onwenu/Wallace line, and then run a decent number of those 6 linemen plays and bring in Robinson for those (and maybe play him as the "tackle" between Wallace and Onwenu.

 

[Cellar-Door]

https://www.patriots.com/news/week-4-injury-report-patriots-at-49ers

Injury report.

Jordan and Lowe DNP, almost certainly means they'll be out.
Sow and Wallace Limited (makes them more likely to play)
Onwenu was a full participant (Should play barring re-injury)
Andrews was not on the report at all today so he's good to go

 

[Saints Rest]

I think I've seen enough of Robinson that I would rather potentially have Wallace at RT and Onwenu at RG.

Robinson has the lowest pass blocking efficiency number at OG in the NFL of anyone who has played 50 snaps. Out of 66 total guards he is giving up the highest amount of pressure! Enough is enough. His run blocking is too inconsistent to justify him playing right now.

Let Wallace play the position he has played the last 5 years, same with Onwenu, and see how it looks. Can Wallace not suck as badly at RT as Robinson has at RG? You'd hope so.

Can we just make you OLine coach? I'm 100% behind this idea. Make one side of the line great again and then you can possibly scheme the other side.

 

[Bigdogx]

Man it is only week 4 and our line looks like it's limping into the last week of a long hard season..

I know one thing, i will be starting what ever defence that plays this Patriots team every week.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I think I'd like to see a Lowe/Sow/Andrews/Onwenu/Wallace line, and then run a decent number of those 6 linemen plays and bring in Robinson for those (and maybe play him as the "tackle" between Wallace and Onwenu.

I like that idea. I freaking hope Lowe gets back soon and I never in my life thought I would utter those words.

Can we just make you OLine coach? I'm 100% behind this idea. Make one side of the line great again and then you can possibly scheme the other side.

I can't coach but I would kill to be an OL consultant for them. They could give me a cool million dollars and for their week's engagement I would tell them to not play their guys out of place, draft OTs high, and don't do stupid shit like trying to make OGs OTs because that is not the inefficiency they think it is. Oh and don't be overconfident in your evals - if you are higher than anyone else on 2 guys you should take a step back and reassess. More likely than not you are the one that is wrong vs consensus.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I think I'd like to see a Lowe/Sow/Andrews/Onwenu/Wallace line, and then run a decent number of those 6 linemen plays and bring in Robinson for those (and maybe play him as the "tackle" between Wallace and Onwenu.

Yep. If those guys can get on the field, that's the best chance to buy a half dozen plays with enough time for a receiver to get open before the QB is murdered.

 

[Justthetippett]

Yep. If those guys can get on the field, that's the best chance to buy a half dozen plays with enough time for a receiver to get open before the QB is murdered.

This is awesome. Now do it in the John Facenda voice...

 

[sezwho]

I like that idea. I freaking hope Lowe gets back soon and I never in my life thought I would utter those words.



I can't coach but I would kill to be an OL consultant for them. They could give me a cool million dollars and for their week's engagement I would tell them to not play their guys out of place, draft OTs high, and don't do stupid shit like trying to make OGs OTs because that is not the inefficiency they think it is. Oh and don't be overconfident in your evals - if you are higher than anyone else on 2 guys you should take a step back and reassess. More likely than not you are the one that is wrong vs consensus.

This would be a quality use of their money.

Certainly more so than thinking you were the wizards going to unlock Chuks at LT in year 37 of his career. Dammit I triggered myself.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

https://www.patriots.com/news/injury-report-analysis-projecting-the-patriots-starting-offensive-line-and-potential-matchups-in-the-secondary-vs-the-49ers

Injury report for Niners:

New England ruled out CB Alex Austin (ankle), G Michael Jordan (ankle), and OT Vederian Lowe (knee) for Sunday's game. The following players are questionable for the Patriots: LB Anfernee Jennings (shoulder), G Sidy Sow (ankle), CB Jonathan Jones (shoulder), and OT Caedan Wallace (knee).

Based on practice this week, the Patriots projected starting offensive line is as follows: LT Trey Jacobs, G Sidy Sow, C David Andrews, RG Layden Robinson, and RT Mike Onwenu. New England's line will face a 49ers pass rush that ranks 12th in pressure rate this season (33.7%) and majors in four-man pass rushes. We'll see if the Niners test a makeshift left side with a more aggressive pressure plan like the Jets did last week.

Gulp. Game 4, and we are probably starting our 4th LT.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Based on practice this week, the Patriots projected starting offensive line is as follows: LT Trey Jacobs, G Sidy Sow, C David Andrews, RG Layden Robinson, and RT Mike Onwenu.

That's this lineup from upthread

• Jacobs | Sow | Andrews | Robinson | Onwenu | Caedan (as the extra)... or perhaps...

I know I'm quoting myself, but you can use TEs and backs to help Jacobs, and TEs and backs to help with Bosa. I'm going to be glass-half-full on this group until the game starts and we see how this goes.

The 49ers DLine after Bosa is not the scariest in the league. So, if the rest of our line can be baseline functional in pass protection, and we keep track of Bosa and help out Jacobs, then our offense should be able to get back to what we saw in weeks 1 and 2.

Yes, I'm knocking on wood as I type this

 

[Jimbodandy]

That better be some wood.

This game will be a test of AVPs creativity. And hopefully JB survives.