I was just flipping channels and TBS and TNT are only 2 channels apart. Holy shit, Conan O'Brien is still on tv?
October 22-27 NBA Game Thread
- Thread starter Ale Xander
- Start date
You know Klay is thinking it. And Draymond will say it at some point. He loves going back at Charles.
The evening cannot go by without discussing Ice Trae. 38 points on 11-21 shooting (6-10 from TraeLand), nine dimes and seven boards. Hawks beat the Derricktroit Pistons 117-100.
With this game a blowout, the TNT broadcast cuts to a sad Warriors fan. Harlan and Reggie say that they just need to look at their past five seasons and all the banners. Unfortunately, many of these fans are your garden variety tech bros, financial types and venture vultures. Few of them were even paying attention until they got their Chase Center corporate seats for this game/season.
Yes.
Though the former is a more permanent state, whereas the latter should (hopefully) improve a bit once Cauley-Stein returns and all the young'uns have a bit more time to gel together. They have at least a few guys who look like they should be able to defend capably (Robinson, Evans, Paschall, plus Looney, Dray$ and WCS when he returns). The communication and rotation on D tonight was atrocious. Made me realize how tied together the old crew was when they put in the effort. I miss Andre!
Gotta love marblemouth Chuck's halftime analysis that the main issue with the Warriors was that they couldn't score. 122 tonight against a great defensive team, despite a crap shooting night from Steph. I guess you have to have actually played D to understand its value. Stating the obvious, but it's no wonder that nitwit never won a 'chip
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When I lived in the Bay Area, the Warriors were mediocre, but their fans were the best. Completely different crowd than you'd see at a Niners or Giants game. I was back for the Celtics game there a few years ago, and the upper level was still filled with those great fans.
I can only imagine the difference in a new arena in San Francisco. Boo.
If I was a Warrior's fan, it would drive me crazy how frequently the commentators brought up how it must be "so different" for the fans to see a bunch of JAGs out there instead of Durant and Klay. I'm sure Warrior fans were well aware that they were not going to have those two guys this season, but they kept hammering it home.
When the Clips get George back and can roll out Beverley/George/Kawahi on the perimeter, oh boy.
When the Clips get George back and can roll out Beverley/George/Kawahi on the perimeter, oh boy.
The “light-years” ahead stuff clearly rubbed a lot of people in the league the wrong way, and it’s nice to see Lacob and co. get their come-uppance.
Truly. These next few seasons are really where Bob Myers gets the chance to prove that he's actually a good GM and not just the beneficiary of a cap spike that let him sign the best player in the NBA. I'll go further and say that if the Warriors struggle this season and are eliminated from the playoffs early, I think Curry's legacy is going to be tarnished a bit. The "Curry only won a single championship, against an injury depleted Cavs team, without Durant" narrative will become a thing if he doesn't win another one, and I'm not sure it's actually unfair.
How many did Jordan win without Pippen, again?
Dumb narratives are always gonna exist; and we have no idea right now how Curry's age 31-36 seasons are going to look. Yeah, if he sucks from here on out he'll probably tarnish his legacy; and if he kicks ass he'll burnish it. And everything in between. When his career is winding down, we can examine the numbers (traditional and advanced), the MVPs, the total rings, the teammates, the grey ink stuff etc. etc. and try to make a reasonable, non-hot-takey estimate of where he stands in the canon. You know, as we do with every other player.
How many people think Pippen is better than Jordan again? Maybe him and his mom?
How many people think Durant is better than Steph Curry? There is 0 doubt Jordan was the best player on his team. Not so with Curry.
You're right, we'll have a more accurate sense in the fullness of time, but I don't think this argument really favors Curry. In keeping with bosox79's point above, Durant is a better individual player than Pippen, and a better player than any of LeBron's teammates as well. Curry is a great basketball player and his/the Warriors style of play helped to revolutionize the league. No disputing that. His being a three time champion has a lot to do with Durant and his team being the beneficiary of injury luck in pivotal games/series.
I actually Curry is relatively safe this year. People whose opinions should be valued understand that this season he doesn't have a lot of help, especially on the defensive end, in a very difficult conference.
Myers got lucky with Durant, but showed great aptitude for drafting outside the Top 5 and turning those guys into Steph, Klay and Draymond.
I think this will be an interesting year for Kerr, although I'm not sure if it should be held against him. I believe that there are coaches who are good Xs and Os guys and can get the most of their limited players, and there are other coaches who are more psychologically-based and good at dealing with star players and making sure the team doesn't kill each other. If Kerr can't get the most out of Jordan Poole, I'm not sure if that is even a knock against him.
Myers got lucky with Durant, but showed great aptitude for drafting outside the Top 5 and turning those guys into Steph, Klay and Draymond.
I think this will be an interesting year for Kerr, although I'm not sure if it should be held against him. I believe that there are coaches who are good Xs and Os guys and can get the most of their limited players, and there are other coaches who are more psychologically-based and good at dealing with star players and making sure the team doesn't kill each other. If Kerr can't get the most out of Jordan Poole, I'm not sure if that is even a knock against him.
He's a former MVP on a team with two All-Stars. The Clippers won 48 games last year, and the West was incredibly competitive, so barring injury that should really be the baseline expectation for the Warriors. If they fall below that, then I think he will face some legitimate criticism.
Myers didn't draft Steph or Klay.
I disagree, and trust me, people in this forum know that I won't pass up a chance to criticize Curry if warranted, but I think while he does have Russell and Draymond, the rest of that team is completely hollow and outside of those three, I'm not sure how many players on Golden State would even get playing time on the Clippers, or another top team. The drop off from those three to the rest of the team is staggering.
Looney is an NBA caliber rotational big, I think he would get at least 20 minutes on pretty much any team in the NBA and probably start for the Celtics, but they are pretty thin, I'll agree. My point was that the Clippers won 48 games last year with Avery Bradley and Marcin Gortat finishing top 8 in total minutes played. Houston won 53 with Gerald Green playing the sixth most minutes on that team. I'm not sure the West on the whole is much better than it was last year, a few teams are clearly worse. So, 48-50 wins with Curry, Russell and Draymond seems fairly reasonable and kind of damning for arguments about Curry's individual greatness if he can't get them there.
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I mean, none — but Pippen was still arguably the second best player of his era, and a comparable overall player to Durant. As GOAT-ish as Jordan is, I think it's reasonable to posit that he wins zero titles if he plays for an organization who never find a Pippen for him (say, one like the KG Wolves or KD Thunder). People interested in constructing BS narratives like "Curry only won a single championship, against an injury depleted Cavs team, without Durant" could easily do similar for Jordan (or KD, or KG, or LeBron, or Kareem, etc. etc.) if so inclined.
I just think it's more interesting to look at the actual data and try to figure out where they rank in groups of other players who are also freaking amazing, rather trying to guess at what kind of negative "narratives" are likely to emanate from the mouths of haters if they fail to do X, Y or Z (especially when it comes to Curry, lol).
That feels like a pointlessly specific and arbitrary threshold, given that we'll also have Curry's full season's worth of data and a bunch of other salient facts with which to make an informed and balanced judgment. Not all "all stars" are created equal. What if DLo fails to build on last year's numbers and regresses to his Lakers-era inefficient self? Or Draymond's mild signs of physical decline the last couple years start to increase? Etc. If Curry averages, say, 30 ppg on .660 ts with 420 threes and +20 net pts per 100 possessions to carry the team 47-35 record, will criticism really be legitimate?
Fwiw, the 1988-89 Bulls — even with Jordan playing over 3200 minutes and putting up a ridiculous 33-8-8 — notched a "sub-2019 Clippers" 47-35 record, despite also having former all-star Bill Cartwright and future all-stars Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.
He might not have won 6 but to say he wouldn't have won any is like skip bayless level takes. Id put money on Jordan winning at least 1 without Pippen.
Eh, I think it really depends on quality of teammate. I doubt he wins even one with KG's Minnesota crew or LeBron's first Cleveland crew. He never got close to one till he hooked up with Pippen, and never got close to one post-Pippen. And if he ekes out one or two without Pippen, he could still get dinged for being an "amazing scorer, merchandising phenom, and human highlight reel" who in his whole career only once (or twice) got past the Bird Celtics / Badboy Pistons / Hakeem Rockets / Stockton-Malone Jazz etc.
Hating on players is easier than you might think.
Wow, I don't think there's a professional athlete in the last 40 years whose reputation has gone up as much after their career was over as Scottie Pippen. He was an incredible defender, and a better athlete than even Jordan (I used to joke that he should be playing in the next league up), but I still distinctly remember watching Bulls/Knicks in the playoffs during Jordan's hiatus and rooting for Pippen to take every shot possible down the stretch (as a Knicks fan), I think he averaged one made FG per 4th quarter in that series. Dude was an A-Rod level head case, no one living through that era of hoops would call him 'arguably the second best player of his era'.
There is zero reasonable argument that Pippen was the second-best player of his era. That's nonsense.
Less arguably #3, after MJ and Hakeem. You could maybe push it as low as #5 after Barkley and Malone, if you think offense is a lot more important than defense, and/or favor PPG / fantasy points over impact on winning ballgames. Personally I'd take Pippen and Stockton over Chuck and the Mailman if I were starting a team from scratch; and Pippen over anyone if I were trying to construct a winning team around Jordan (assuming I couldn't clone Jordan).
Maybe need to add the caveat "5 on 5 player" to make it clear I'm not talking just about scoring in isolation?
In any case, #3-6 range, or I guess #4-7 if you consider Shaq the same era.
I guess it kind of depends on how you define his era, but...Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, Malone are the first tier for me.
After that you're talking Pippen in the mix with Drexler, Miller, Richmond, Dominique, Stockton, etc.
After that you're talking Pippen in the mix with Drexler, Miller, Richmond, Dominique, Stockton, etc.
Suns beating the Nuggets at half and Minnesota goes 2-0 playing the EC
You just don't want to be in the Western Conf, what a beating...
You just don't want to be in the Western Conf, what a beating...
Dwight Howard bringing fantastic energy off the Lakers bench. Looks to be having a Patrick Chung rejuvenation in his second stint with the Purple and Gold.
I don't even see the point of this argument; you could totally make a legitimate argument that Pippen was the second best player of his era (I'd put Hakeem definitely ahead of him and Malone/Barkley have strong arguments) but even if you don't think that, there is no denying that Pippen wasn't anything but an extremely good, all-time great player, and he was a key reason MJ won six rings.
Nobody has ever won multiple championships without a really good supporting cast, it is just a fact of the NBA that one really dominant player can't win it all without a strong supporting cast.
Yeah, I don't think anyone over 40 (?) would argue Pippen as a top 3 player of the era. Metrics make him look better than he was in reality, agree that he is likely somewhere in the 6-10 range.
Devin Booker. Another gas face victim...
View: https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/1187925843596546050?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/1187925843596546050?s=20
Idk man, Jordan retired and Pippen Bulls won 55 games and Pip missed the first 10. He probably should have been MVP that year.
It’s one of those things that’s tough to know because we mostly have him with Jordan.
I remember the allstar game when he lit it up, it surprised me.
Heh, that was the same year I was talking about, he disappeared offensively in every fourth quarter all series against the Knicks, to the point where Phil Jackson asked him to inbound the ball (!!!) in a tie game with 2 seconds left to try to get Kukoc the game-winning attempt, they didn't even use Pippen as a decoy because everyone knew he would miss it if he got the shot. Again, I'm working from a very old memory but I remember going through the box scores of that series to see just how many FGs he made in the 7 4th quarters, and I believe it was exactly 7.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I've had my say.
I do remember he had some headcase moment where he wouldn’t get off the bench. I was a 14 so I don’t rember this that well I just remember how shocking it was to me how good the Bulls were
Also, watch this guy. We may be discussing him as a legitimate MVP candidate in fairly short order:
View: https://twitter.com/MickstapeShow/status/1187920606064447489?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/MickstapeShow/status/1187920606064447489?s=20
So you don't remember the migraine in game 7 against DET either presumably?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-05-24-9102160600-story.html
View: https://youtu.be/0L5oh0pFaHQ?t=18
(start at 0:17)
When did old friend Baynes start shooting with his right foot properly forward?
(start at 0:17)
When did old friend Baynes start shooting with his right foot properly forward?
Because they drew the final play for Toni Kukoc and not for him. He also has the nick name No Tippin' Pippen because he doesn't tip.
that was a fun game, caught the end of regulation and OT
Jokic's OMG is priceless. BUT the only way he gets my MVP vote is when he pulls a Jersey Mike's bag out from under his chair and polishes off that sub between the 1st and 2nd quarters