NY signs Brian McCann to a 5/$85M deal

glennhoffmania

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
 
They certainly still need to fix their rotation.  The offense could very well be one of the best in baseball next year, though it will require some injury luck which is tough to bank on with a roster that old.  That said, if Jeter and Teixeira have mostly healthy seasons and they can bring Cano back, they're looking at a solid offensive infield.  It would be very good if ARod manages to force his way onto the field somehow.  Even without him going Jeter, Cano, McCann, Teixeira for your 2, 3, 4 and 5 is nothing to sneeze at.
 
Would bringing Cano back not be considered a significant move?  So basically what you're saying is that as long as NY signs the biggest FA of the offseason in addition to the $100m deal they just gave McCann and two of their old, injured players come back and produce like they did two years ago they could be good.  I'm not sure that you're saying anything that refutes my point.
 

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This is a good deal for the MFY. Defense behind the dish is one of the subjects that sabermetrics hasn't shed much light on, but the evidence that does exist (some of which is discussed in the Salty thread on the Main Board) suggests that an excellent defensive catcher like McCann is worth a win or two per season above and beyond his WAR -- which would make McCann a steal at the dollars the MFY are giving him, even if he's worthless the last season of this deal.
 

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FanSinceBoggs said:
 
Many Yankees fans will gush over the McCann signing, but that 18th pick is pretty valuable to give up even for a player as good as McCann.
 
Under the new system, it is really not the pick that is most valuable, but it is the money associated with the pick that is so valuable.  Under the old system, if you had a $4M budget for the draft (which is nothing for the Yankees) and you lose a first round pick, you just spend the money later in the draft.  
 
If the Yankees first pick is in the 2nd round, they are going to have a pretty small amount that they are allowed to spend on the draft without losing a future 1st round pick.  Even if they employ the same tricks the Red Sox use, it will still be difficult to sign premium talent.  
 

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maufman said:
This is a good deal for the MFY. Defense behind the dish is one of the subjects that sabermetrics hasn't shed much light on, but the evidence that does exist (some of which is discussed in the Salty thread on the Main Board) suggests that an excellent defensive catcher like McCann is worth a win or two per season above and beyond his WAR -- which would make McCann a steal at the dollars the MFY are giving him, even if he's worthless the last season of this deal.
 
He's supposedly very good at calling games and framing pitches, but pretty bad at throwing out runners, FWIW. 
 

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Yeah even the better (ie not spending equals good) baseball writers seem broadly in favour of the deal.

I think the most jarring thing I did see is that McCann is the youngest position player signed for the yanks starting lineup at this point. Ouch. The Yankees certainly haven't got to the conclusion baseball is a younger players game today vs the not so distant past.

It's almost certainly not a bad deal, baring injury, for 2-3 years. After that? Dubious. And if they aren't going over 189mm then one of those is likely lost. If they are going over they need to go OVER and just sign everyone I guess. Halfway is just no plan
 

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SaveBooFerriss said:
 
Under the new system, it is really not the pick that is most valuable, but it is the money associated with the pick that is so valuable.  Under the old system, if you had a $4M budget for the draft (which is nothing for the Yankees) and you lose a first round pick, you just spend the money later in the draft.  
 
If the Yankees first pick is in the 2nd round, they are going to have a pretty small amount that they are allowed to spend on the draft without losing a future 1st round pick.  Even if they employ the same tricks the Red Sox use, it will still be difficult to sign premium talent.  
 
Not usually much premium talent available in the 2nd round, and the Yankees might decide to blow away the 2nd pick as well with another FA signing.  Picks at that level are pretty much a lottery and and most will accept the bonus that is allocated for that slot (and some of them might turn out to be premium talent retrospectively, Pedroia was a 2nd rounder who got a 575K bonus).  I think its all overblown myself and just gives teams an excuse their fan base accepts for passing on top free agents.  Might be wrong on that.  In any event, until they get their player development system fixed losing a pick probably won't hurt much.
 

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I know it is still "early", but what is going on with McCann?
 
Through 111 plate appearances he is at .217/.252/.358. 
 
He has 4 HR and 3 2b in his 23 hits so far, but I think the most alarming number is only 4 walks. I mean, I know he has never come close to replicating his career high 74 walks in 2010 (had a very good .375 OBP that year), but holy crap he is on pace to only draw like 20 walks this year. 
 
Is he just mesmerized by that short porch in RF and can't stop swinging at anything close?  Obviously his current .213 BABIP should improve and drive up his batting average by 30 or 40 points, but has he changed his approach (patience wise) that is hurting him, swinging at stuff that makes for poor contact?  Anyone concerned by what they have seen so far - I have only watched a handful of his 100+ at bats....
 

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I've watched most of the games so far this season. He really seems to consistently put together quality ABs. The shift hurts him a lot, but you can tell he is working hard to be able to go the other way. The results haven't been there, but I like what I see both at the plate and behind it so far.
 

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TheYaz67 said:
I know it is still "early", but what is going on with McCann?
 
Through 111 plate appearances he is at .217/.252/.358. 
 
He has 4 HR and 3 2b in his 23 hits so far, but I think the most alarming number is only 4 walks. I mean, I know he has never come close to replicating his career high 74 walks in 2010 (had a very good .375 OBP that year), but holy crap he is on pace to only draw like 20 walks this year. 
 
Is he just mesmerized by that short porch in RF and can't stop swinging at anything close?  Obviously his current .213 BABIP should improve and drive up his batting average by 30 or 40 points, but has he changed his approach (patience wise) that is hurting him, swinging at stuff that makes for poor contact?  Anyone concerned by what they have seen so far - I have only watched a handful of his 100+ at bats....
 
 
He’s struggling against right handed pitchers, which is unusual, considering how well he’s hit against them throughout his career.
 
2014
vs. Left         .306        .359        .528        .887
vs. Right       .171        .194        .271        .465
 
Career
vs. Left          .261        .321        .427        .748
vs. Right        .282        .358        .489        .848
 

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Ellsbury is another LHH for NY who is hitting way better against lefties, very strange. 
 

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TheYaz67 said:
I know it is still "early", but what is going on with McCann?
 
Through 111 plate appearances he is at .217/.252/.358. 
 
He has 4 HR and 3 2b in his 23 hits so far, but I think the most alarming number is only 4 walks. I mean, I know he has never come close to replicating his career high 74 walks in 2010 (had a very good .375 OBP that year), but holy crap he is on pace to only draw like 20 walks this year. 
 
Well, now almost half way through the season, and sitting at .218/.280/.354 through 264 plate appearances.  He has indeed somewhat "fixed" his OBP by upping his walk total to 18, but the average and SLG are stuck where he was before.  BABIP still not good at .230, but an improvement over .213 I guess (he is .286 career)...
 
Could be a "lost year" for McCann getting adjusted to AL pitching/new team unless he really heats up in the second half.
 

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McCann's last four seasons of BA/OBP/SLG currently stand at 
 
 

.270

.351

.466

.817
 

.230

.300

.399

.698
 

.256

.336

.461

.796
 

.218

.280

.354

.634
 
It's entirely possible that 2012 wasn't an off year as much as a signal that he's no longer a great hitter for a catcher. It shouldn't be a shock when a 30 year old who has caught almost 1,200 career games falls off a cliff.
 

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I still stand my original statement in this thread that the McCann signing was idiotic.  He's older and looks to have completely fallen off a cliff.  The numbers in the post above show that he was in decline. 
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
I still stand my original statement in this thread that the McCann signing was idiotic.  He's older and looks to have completely fallen off a cliff.  The numbers in the post above show that he was in decline. 
 
All for the low, low, price of $17 million a season.  Imagine what this guy will be hitting like in 3 years.  
 

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Of course it was idiotic, from any perspective. NY let Russell Martin go when he cost much less and was probably just as good, and now one of their few potentially helpful young players, John Ryan Murphy, is back in the minors because he is blocked by the decaying corpse of McCann. NY continues to have the worst front office in the AL East, and money doesn't paper over mistakes like it used to. 
 

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jon abbey said:
Of course it was idiotic, from any perspective. NY let Russell Martin go when he cost much less and was probably just as good, and now one of their few potentially helpful young players, John Ryan Murphy, is back in the minors because he is blocked by the decaying corpse of McCann. NY continues to have the worst front office in the AL East, and money doesn't paper over mistakes like it used to. 
The mistake was certainly letting Martin go. But after that horse left the barn, the kid catchers weren't ready. Murphy is a singles hitter right now. Romine is hitting .230 for Scranton. Sanchez is playing solid in Trenton albeit with head issues. And his defense is suspect.
Say what you will about McCann, he's on track for 20 homers this season. As a team, the Yankees are on pace to hit an awesome 130 homers. So McCann is one of their few power threats. He is 30 and maybe the mileage has piled up. His defense is good. I would consider his signing depressing, not idiotic.
Yankee management refuses to consider taking a year off and letting the kids play at the big league level and learn the hard way. It's a never-ending cycle. If they trade away any of their two or three legit prospects next month, well, that would just continue the cycle that got them to this place.
 

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There continues to be zero macro perspective from NY management. Many of the individual moves are OK in a vacuum, combined they make very little sense. I don't think it'll really change until the Steinbrenners sell, honestly. 
 

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jon abbey said:
There continues to be zero macro perspective from NY management. Many of the individual moves are OK in a vacuum, combined they make very little sense. I don't think it'll really change until the Steinbrenners sell, honestly. 
Agree totally.
 

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Weren't we saying this winter that a elite catcher is worth 1-1.5 wins over an average one just on pitch framing? And that's not even touching on the hard-to-measure attribute of handling pitchers and calling the game.

If McCann is as good defensively as his rep, he'll earn his $17mm this season even if his bat is only slightly better than replacement level.
 

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jon abbey said:
There continues to be zero macro perspective from NY management. Many of the individual moves are OK in a vacuum, combined they make very little sense. I don't think it'll really change until the Steinbrenners sell, honestly. 
I'm not trying to say nyah nyah.  I'm curious.  Do you think that the Steinbrenners prevent Cashman from having a cohesive plan for the organization?  And how has this changed from how things were previously?  Was the lack of a cohesive plan simply less of a problem when  there was a long time holdover homegrown core?
 

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jon abbey said:
There continues to be zero macro perspective from NY management. Many of the individual moves are OK in a vacuum, combined they make very little sense. I don't think it'll really change until the Steinbrenners sell, honestly.
 
That's probably why they keep the ranks stocked with all-star names. Though it doesn't help if McCann and the rest of the hired guns become albatrosses. 
 

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maufman said:
Weren't we saying this winter that a elite catcher is worth 1-1.5 wins over an average one just on pitch framing? And that's not even touching on the hard-to-measure attribute of handling pitchers and calling the game.

If McCann is as good defensively as his rep, he'll earn his $17mm this season even if his bat is only slightly better than replacement level.
 
Except Russell Martin was also a world-class pitch framer, and they had him on a much cheaper deal. 
 

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Rough Carrigan said:
I'm not trying to say nyah nyah.  I'm curious.  Do you think that the Steinbrenners prevent Cashman from having a cohesive plan for the organization?  And how has this changed from how things were previously?  Was the lack of a cohesive plan simply less of a problem when  there was a long time holdover homegrown core?
 
Well, the homegrown core was a lot of it (and they were put together while Steinbrenner was suspended from baseball, right?), plus it was much easier 5-10 years ago to paper over flaws with big money free agents. Now it's a lot harder to do that, because it's increasingly a young man's game. 
 
Also the attempt to get under $189M really fucked the organization up for multiple years, then at the last minute, they ditched it in favor of a bunch of high-priced FAs who weren't all ideal fits. For instance, if there's never an attempt to get under $189M, Russell Martin almost certainly is still a Yankee, he wanted to stay even after Pittsburgh made him an offer. There's no Vernon Wells silliness, no signing Ichiro, etc.
 
So, yeah, I do think the Steinbrenners interfere a lot more than is desirable, but mostly I think that it's hard to change organizational philoosophy drastically without ownership changing (for any team). With a new owner, the first priority could be hiring the best front office talent around, that would be a way to utilize some of their massive revenues in a positive way. NY needs to rethink everything they do in the wake of the changing conditions of the CBA, etc, they need to come up with a macro plan, and they need to stick to it unless there is a damn good reason to change. 
 

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glennhoffmania said:
Is there really data that suggests that pitch framing can save 1.5 wins?
 
I bet that's low, catcher defense has been so underappreciated for years. This is why I argued Jose Molina was better than Jorge Posada back in 2009, Posada cost his pitchers so many strikes by awful framing. 
 

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jon abbey said:
 
I bet that's low, catcher defense has been so underappreciated for years. This is why I argued Jose Molina was better than Jorge Posada back in 2009, Posada cost his pitchers so many strikes by awful framing. 
 
I agree about being underappreciated.  I also thought it was more about blocking balls and controlling the running game though.  It seems really, really tough to quantify the effects of framing.  I always thought that Posada cost his pitchers by missing balls that he really should have blocked or even caught.
 

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jon abbey said:
I bet that's low, catcher defense has been so underappreciated for years. This is why I argued Jose Molina was better than Jorge Posada back in 2009, Posada cost his pitchers so many strikes by awful framing.
 
Yep, good catcher defense really steals runs, and Molina has stolen more than just about anyone else. I haven't seen 2014 figures for McCann yet, but his numbers from Jnai's study through 2013 were stellar. Also, I think McCann's power numbers will take a jump in the July/August dog days of summer. He may not be such an albatross yet.
 
rembrat said:
That's probably why they keep the ranks stocked with all-star names. Though it doesn't help if McCann and the rest of the hired guns become albatrosses.
allstartross, amirite?
 

jon abbey

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Coincidentally the new ESPN magazine has a piece about pitch framing, and they have McCann leading MLB (through June 16) in runs saved by framing/blocking at 13.2. Also worth nothing, they have Saltalamacchia last in MLB at -10.3 runs. 
 

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Terry Pendelton spoke about McCann recently.
 


"New York is not Brian," Pendleton told the Post before Atlanta's game Monday against the New York Mets. "That's my opinion. I knew if he chose New York, there would be more than he expected or knew about. He'll never be comfortable with that."
 
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/terry-pendleton-talks-mccann-slump/story?id=24468536
 
He later went on to say he thinks he'll break out of it eventually, but that he needs to relax before that can happen.
 

jon abbey

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When I read that earlier today, I vaguely recalled Pendleton having issues with NY in his playing days, like maybe the Mets tried to get him at one point and he didn't want to come?
 
Dunno, maybe I made that up, I don't see anything on the web on a quick search, but if I'm remembering right, this is probably more about Pendleton than McCann (which was still a terrible/inexplicable signing as I'm sure I said at the start of this thread). 
 

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jon abbey said:
When I read that earlier today, I vaguely recalled Pendleton having issues with NY in his playing days, like maybe the Mets tried to get him at one point and he didn't want to come?
 
Dunno, maybe I made that up, I don't see anything on the web on a quick search, but if I'm remembering right, this is probably more about Pendleton than McCann (which was still a terrible/inexplicable signing as I'm sure I said at the start of this thread). 
I agree with you, Jon, on the signing because there was a chance for development among Cervelli, Murphy and Romine, but I have to say it is comforting to have a professional defensive catcher behind the plate who can hit the long ball occasionally. I also sort of like his demeanor. I know that is one of those intangibles that stat people hate. I just kind of like the guy. He's a leader, as most catchers are. Not all of them are leaders. McCann's signing is not a mistake. Signing Beltran might be a mistake. McCann is at least playing every day, or whatever, playing defense, and hitting. By the end of the year, he will end up with 20 HRs and 80 RBI. Is that terrible for a catcher?
 

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David Cone just said the same thing as me about Pendleton having biases against NY from his playing days, I am such a big fan of his in the booth. 
 
McCann blocks the catcher position for the next 5 years, or until he becomes a poor/mediocre hitting 1B/DH. It's another in a long line of examples over the last couple of seasons of NY seeing the flaws in their own FAs and overlooking the flaws in other teams' guys. Sure, he's fine to have on the team this year, but in the meantime Murphy is languishing in the minors. 
 

jon abbey

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At $17M per? I'll believe that when I see it, but more importantly, their catching prospects won't have a chance to break through with McCann in NY. 
 

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Hasn't Murphy had a lot of chances to break through and never did? I mean, McCann is struggling to hit this year, but his defense and pitch framing has been amazing. Not sure whether Murphy - or any of the prospects - can do what McCann does. They've been up, but none have even been able to supplant Cervelli for the backup job. And Cervelli has no chance at the main job thanks to PEDs and multiple injuries.
 
So, to sum it up from my perspective: I love the McCann signing. I wish he was hitting better, but you have to pay top dollar at a premium position like catcher. Beltran, well, that is a place the Yankees could be saving money and bringing up kids.
 

jon abbey

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Murphy had 26 ABs in the bigs last year and 63 this year before being bumped by Cervelli since Cervelli was out of options. It's pretty hard to develop when you play 1-2 games a week as the backup catcher. 
 
But Murphy isn't the concern as much as Gary Sanchez, in AA now. To me, between Cervelli, Romine, Murphy and Sanchez in maybe a year or so, they had plenty of possibilities. You don't really know if these guys can cut it unless they get to play 4-5 games a week. McCann is injury prone, past his prime and declining (even before this season), and under contract at huge money for 4 more years. He is great at pitch framing, has 20-25 HR power, but I think this is another deal that will end up being dead money for at least the last year or two, and at a position where they seemed to have a lot of internal options. 
 

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maufman said:
Barring injury, the MFY will be able to move McCann with a modest subsidy if one of their catching prospects breaks through.
How much of a subsidy? Is he worth 14m per year? The general opinion seems to be that it's only a matter of time before he starts hitting, so that should be a factor in determining his worth. As Pendelton stated "he's not a .220 hitter." 
 

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orphan said:
How much of a subsidy? Is he worth 14m per year? The general opinion seems to be that it's only a matter of time before he starts hitting, so that should be a factor in determining his worth. As Pendelton stated "he's not a .220 hitter." 
 
Well, he has hit .239 over the last two and a half years and he is a 30 year old catcher... I can't remember, was anyone else willing to pay him $14 million per year over the next five years when he was a 29 year old .256 hitter?
 

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Exactly, and to be clear, it's $17M per, orphan was just including a guess at a subsidy from NY. Instant albatross deal, same as the Beltran one.