Not Being a Joker, We Need A The Finals Thread

HomeRunBaker

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in 2006 after the heat beat dallas the vets on that team shaq walker payton etc was out of shape etc
pat most likely has spyes watching his players
during shaq last season in miami riley throuht he was fakeing his inj
and shaq said the trirainning in pho help him play longer
Antoine and Posey were actually told not to dress for at least one game that year for missing Riley's body fat requirement. It worked out well for us since Posey wouldn't have been available to us otherwise.
 

reggiecleveland

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Sorry if this is not relevant, but I expect the announcers have been told to not even discuss flopping. There were a couple of egregious flops and JVG, MJ said nothing. Even when slo mo showed no foul.
This is getting to be like roids in baseball. It needs to be stopped.
 

lars10

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I love that the NBA whistled guys for breathing on defenders when they screened this season.

Then the playoffs come around and Bam/Lowry are just walking into defenders and moving them around.
That’s the main thing for me.. one of the main reasons Miami gets so many wide open threes is because Bam is allowed to set picks like he’s a fullback,, he either is moving into the man and basically grabs him to force a switch or he steps out into the man making it impossible to follow around a screen.. either way it’s a moving pick every single time. And it gets called maybe once a game.

Horford was called far more often for less egregious movement.

With the addition of all the flopping and how Butler gets every single foul call when he wants to throw himself into the defender.. or the amount of hacking they’re allowed to do on every drive.. it’s hard to like all that much about the Heat.. I guess that’s also great coaching but they’re also allowed to play, and are called in a way, that other teams aren’t. It’s like the ‘they can’t call everything’ style of basketball.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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lovegtm

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That probably says more about “expectations” than about the Heat’s good luck.

At some point the likelihood that the model is correct gets absurd.
It matches the eye test. The Heat are getting ok 3s, some pretty open, some not, not tons different than what they were getting in the regular season. They're just having a ton of games in which they make 45%+ of them.

It's not that different from how the Celtics started 21-5, just in lower volume and much much better timed.
 

BigSoxFan

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It matches the eye test. The Heat are getting ok 3s, some pretty open, some not, not tons different than what they were getting in the regular season. They're just having a ton of games in which they make 45%+ of them.

It's not that different from how the Celtics started 21-5, just in lower volume and much much better timed.
The Heat shot 40-137 (29%) from 3 in their 4 wins against the Knicks. It’s not just the hot shooting these playoffs. They’re capable of winning in a multitude of ways.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ha. There is a reason why Malone went to Jeff Green for a long stretch last night. And that reason has nothing to do with Jeff Green being good.
You are never sure how a young player will respond to "the moment"....until you see how he responds to "the moment." Porter has been an unmitigated disaster so far in this series and it being at home raises major red flags to me. He's a crucial piece for them and if he's lost that Nuggets team is going to be facing a G5 elimination.
 

lovegtm

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The Heat shot 40-137 (29%) from 3 in their 4 wins against the Knicks. It’s not just the hot shooting these playoffs. They’re capable of winning in a multitude of ways.
capable of winning in a multitude of ways...against the Knicks. They did a great job on the Knicks defensively, and the Knicks were a horror-show offensively.

They have not really been able to beat Milwaukee, Boston, or Denver without getting really hot from 3.
 

BigSoxFan

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capable of winning in a multitude of ways...against the Knicks. They did a great job on the Knicks defensively, and the Knicks were a horror-show offensively.

They have not really been able to beat Milwaukee, Boston, or Denver without getting really hot from 3.
The Knicks were a really good team this year. They certain owned Joe Mazzulla’s boys. I agree that they’ve needed to shoot really well from 3 to beat those 3 teams but that is largely a function of those 3 teams being among the most talented. It’s not really surprising to me that a team with Butler, Bam, and not much else (on paper) can’t win conventionally against more talented teams.
 

Euclis20

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It matches the eye test. The Heat are getting ok 3s, some pretty open, some not, not tons different than what they were getting in the regular season. They're just having a ton of games in which they make 45%+ of them.

It's not that different from how the Celtics started 21-5, just in lower volume and much much better timed.
And much more improbable, given that:

-It's coming against much better teams,
-We have a full season's worth of sample size to see that Boston is a very good 3 point shooting team (.377, 6th best) while Miami is near the bottom of the league (.344, 27th best)
-Miami is doing it without their best 3 point shooter (Herro led the team in both 3PM and 3p%)

They've got a great player and a great coach, but if they finish this off it will be perhaps the most improbable title ever (if regular season results mean anything at all).
 

lovegtm

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And much more improbable, given that:

-It's coming against much better teams,
-We have a full season's worth of sample size to see that Boston is a very good 3 point shooting team (.377, 6th best) while Miami is near the bottom of the league (.344, 27th best)
-Miami is doing it without their best 3 point shooter (Herro led the team in both 3PM and 3p%)

They've got a great player and a great coach, but if they finish this off it will be perhaps the most improbable title ever (if regular season results mean anything at all).
And hey....I'm fine with something improbable happening! That shit is kind of fun, sports!

Just getting pretty f---ing sick of the morality play "They Lost Because the Heat Wanted It More" thing when a huge amount is a ridiculous heater.
 

Euclis20

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And hey....I'm fine with something improbable happening! That shit is kind of fun, sports!

Just getting pretty f---ing sick of the morality play "They Lost Because the Heat Wanted It More" thing when a huge amount is a ridiculous heater.
If they somehow finish this off, they'll also have had one of the more difficult playoff runs in history, too. Both #1 seeds, plus the team that was favored to win the title during most of the year and throughout the playoffs? Yeesh.
 

TripleOT

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Antoine and Posey were actually told not to dress for at least one game that year for missing Riley's body fat requirement. It worked out well for us since Posey wouldn't have been available to us otherwise.
The summer Posey left Miami for Boston as a FA, I saw him one night in South Beach at like 4am in an all night diner, surrounded by four very good looking women, and he was drinking waters like he had just crossed a desert. He was obviously rolling. A few days later, he was rousted by the cops when sleeping in his running car on Washington Street late one night and Riles was done with him.

In this case, Doc’s saying wasn’t true, since something good did happen after 2am. Posey partied his way out of Heat Culture and into Unbuntu with his late night adventures.
 

TripleOT

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For Miami to win a game, they have to shoot lights out from three, and play flawlessly in fourth quarter. For Denver to win, they have to stop just play. I don’t think Miami can win three more times in the next five games.
 

HomeRunBaker

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In this case, Doc’s saying wasn’t true, since something good did happen after 2am. Posey partied his way out of Heat Culture and into Unbuntu with his late night adventures.
Iirc, he signed like a $2m deal w Boston then parlayed that into a 5/$34m in New Orleans where he quickly became the King of Bourbon Street! At the time that was huge money for a role player.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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For Miami to win a game, they have to shoot lights out from three, and play flawlessly in fourth quarter. For Denver to win, they have to stop just play. I don’t think Miami can win three more times in the next five games.
Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, coming out of my mouth several times during the ECF. You don’t think they can do it and then they do it.
 

ElUno20

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Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, coming out of my mouth several times during the ECF. You don’t think they can do it and then they do it.
Well you're going to keep hearing it. Screw Miami and heat culture. All that magic pulled out their asses and it still came down to a last second shot. Denver in 5.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Max Strus is the most underrated defender in the league. Theee, I went ahead and said it.
 

lovegtm

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Max Strus is the most underrated defender in the league. Theee, I went ahead and said it.
Strus is very underrated. I see him occasionally give up the "I got outleveraged and my teammates didn't help" bucket inside, but that's about it. He's a strong, smart defender. So much credit to Miami for playing and developing guys into that, rather than just giving up on them as physically challenged or whatever.
 

benhogan

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For all the "all you have to do to crack zones is put your best player at the FT line" people, here is a nice thread of all the work Miami did to deny just that against Denver. I thought the Celtics actually did a pretty good job of knowing Miami would adjust to that simple adjustment, and attacking the zone in other ways in games 5/6.

View: https://twitter.com/BradyHawk305/status/1665745760963424256?s=20
Miami's coaching & the players' commitment to it is impressive. Aware, high IQ defenders.

I find myself rooting for the Heat when I watch but feel so dirty afterward.
 

128

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Miami's coaching & the players' commitment to it is impressive. Aware, high IQ defenders.

I find myself rooting for the Heat when I watch but feel so dirty afterward.
Lowry is the only Miami player I really detest, and I like Spo. As much as it sucks for us C's fans, the Heat has become an incredible story this postseason.
 

Leon Trotsky

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Miami's coaching & the players' commitment to it is impressive. Aware, high IQ defenders.

I find myself rooting for the Heat when I watch but feel so dirty afterward.
Yes, I agree completely. Its also why I think the C's can really step up again running it back. They seem to be modeling themselves off the Heat and GSW in some ways, and another offseason with a full team and coaching staff to work on it could take them over the top. The system and perfect execution is key. And the Heat have it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The thing the Heat have done incredibly well is exploit defensive weaknesses in short bursts in the second half. They play rope a dope for a while, find a weak link, and the destroy it over a 10 minute stretch in the second half, where teams are simply unable to get stops against them and the game has largely been decided.

We can use words like lucky or improbable, but this is not an accident. They absolutely abused Jokic in that fourth quarter. Look at their second halves. Some of this Bucks games? Holy shit. This is not just an “every team makes runs” kind of thing. They have consistently shown the ability to hang around and then throw a 35 to 40 point quarter in the second half at you before you can blink. It’s just too consistent to be luck. They seem to have no pride in who has to be the guy. Once they find the week link, they use anyone on the court who is needed to exploit it.

Less talented? Maybe. But figuring out exactly what you need to do to win basketball games is a hell of a talent this time of year.

Denver has had line ups that have shut the Heat down and created opportunities the other way. They also did a really nice job hiding Jokic on defense in game 1, and they will adjust. They are well coached and will have 2 days to watch tape to break down whatever the fuck they were doing in that hot mess of a fourth quarter. But if they adjust in a way that leaves a hole somewhere else, I am not betting against the Heat’s ability to find it. One thing I will watch is their time outs. Close and very late, I think they almost have to swap defense for offense and get Jokic the hell out of the game when defending. To do that they will need time outs to get him back in.

Alternatively, Denver is capable of just out scoring you. Not giving a fuck because they can’t be stopped. It is what they did to Phoenix. We haven’t seen that Denver yet in the finals.
 

BaseballJones

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If the Heat win it all this year we will have seen a team finally get over the hump after many really good runs (post-LeBron) that all fell short of a title.

Maybe Boston follows the same path.
 

lexrageorge

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If the Heat win it all this year we will have seen a team finally get over the hump after many really good runs (post-LeBron) that all fell short of a title.

Maybe Boston follows the same path.
Probably not feasible thanks to the new CBA.
 

Auger34

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Lowry is the only Miami player I really detest, and I like Spo. As much as it sucks for us C's fans, the Heat has become an incredible story this postseason.
I like Spo but detest Lowry, Butler and Bam (the Bam thing is new this playoffs, he really seems to be involved in a lot of "accidents". Falling on people, flailing elbows)...however, there is no doubt it's an incredible story.
If someone wrote a script with the same general beats of this Heat playoff it would be laughed off as unrealistic
 

TripleOT

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It would be wise to freight train Bam the first time he tries to set one of his picks, so the officials have a heightened awareness of his moving screens. Do it two or three times in a row if you have to, with different defenders, and complain every time.
 

lars10

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It would be wise to freight train Bam the first time he tries to set one of his picks, so the officials have a heightened awareness of his moving screens. Do it two or three times in a row if you have to, with different defenders, and complain every time.
Williams did this one time.. and Bam grabbed him by the shoulder and pulled him down underneath Strus I believe? I had the sound down but I think Miami got a tech and free throws out of it.
 

TrapperAB

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I can't root for any team with Lowry on it. His bullshit "winning/veteran plays" involve flopping and hard fouls. And he's clearly taught his bag of tricks to Bam (who grabs the fuck out of people now, much worse than before Lowry got there) and the dirty undrafted dozen.

And while I agree that Spo and the Heat have done a great job finding ways to win (it's no mistake that Boston went from winning by 17... to 13... to 1... to We'reNotGonnaTalkAboutThat), they also shoved the three-point-shooting-percentage horseshoe back up their collective asses in Game 2. If they shoot like they did against the Knicks, Denver crushes them.

Until Miami pulls out a win like Game 2 against the Celts (six point win when they weren't unconscious from three), I'll maintain my belief that Denver will win the series -- they have the best player on the floor, and the Nuggets haven't yet played their best.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I can't root for any team with Lowry on it. His bullshit "winning/veteran plays" involve flopping and hard fouls. And he's clearly taught his bag of tricks to Bam (who grabs the fuck out of people now, much worse than before Lowry got there) and the dirty undrafted dozen.

And while I agree that Spo and the Heat have done a great job finding ways to win (it's no mistake that Boston went from winning by 17... to 13... to 1... to We'reNotGonnaTalkAboutThat), they also shoved the three-point-shooting-percentage horseshoe back up their collective asses in Game 2. If they shoot like they did against the Knicks, Denver crushes them.

Until Miami pulls out a win like Game 2 against the Celts (six point win when they weren't unconscious from three), I'll maintain my belief that Denver will win the series -- they have the best player on the floor, and the Nuggets haven't yet played their best.
If our guys made more "veteran winning plays" we'd be playing tomorrow night. I don't really understand the vitriol for players who do what's necessary to get calls and work officials.

Did you notice anything different about Miami's offense in that Knicks series when Butler was hobbling on his bad ankle?
 

Just a bit outside

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If our guys made more "veteran winning plays" we'd be playing tomorrow night. I don't really understand the vitriol for players who do what's necessary to get calls and work officials.

Did you notice anything different about Miami's offense in that Knicks series when Butler was hobbling on his bad ankle?
Because it is horrible to watch and not really basketball. It is the same when Smart flops. It is the worst part about the NBA.

Lowry also sucks because he is dangerous and hurts other players.

Edited to add I love the nba and watch a ton. Just wish they would eliminate the bullshit.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Because it is horrible to watch and not really basketball. It is the same when Smart flops. It is the worst part about the NBA.

Lowry also sucks because he is dangerous and hurts other players.

Edited to add I love the nba and watch a ton. Just wish they would eliminate the bullshit.
It's not just the NBA. If it wasn't effective nobody would do it and it has been a part of the game for a long time. In the same context, framing pitches is the same as an NBA player flopping....the objective is to sell the call to the official by deceiving him.

The speed of the game has made officiating next to impossible by human officials and it isn't going away anytime soon. They tried the flop rule in college which was a joke as now you give the officials another subjective call to add to their plate.
 

Just a bit outside

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It's not just the NBA. If it wasn't effective nobody would do it and it has been a part of the game for a long time. In the same context, framing pitches is the same as an NBA player flopping....the objective is to sell the call to the official by deceiving him.

The speed of the game has made officiating next to impossible by human officials and it isn't going away anytime soon. They tried the flop rule in college which was a joke as now you give the officials another subjective call to add to their plate.
Totally agree that the game is too fast for the refs. I wouldn’t have the game refs call it. If I guy flops they should just ignore it and not call a foul. I would have all games reviewed and fine and suspend guys like they do with technical fouls. It is not perfect but I don’t agree with just saying there is nothing to be done and throwing up your hands. Leagues should try and make the game better.
 

luckiestman

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It's not just the NBA. If it wasn't effective nobody would do it and it has been a part of the game for a long time. In the same context, framing pitches is the same as an NBA player flopping....the objective is to sell the call to the official by deceiving him.

The speed of the game has made officiating next to impossible by human officials and it isn't going away anytime soon. They tried the flop rule in college which was a joke as now you give the officials another subjective call to add to their plate.
Embellishment should be fined and then given techs that lead to missed games. The evaluation should take place post game.
 

lars10

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Embellishment should be fined and then given techs that lead to missed games. The evaluation should take place post game.
That’s just what the league needs.. another arbitrary system that will potentially significantly hurt or help teams. The league hasn’t built up the amount of trust required to put a system in place like this that could ever be deemed fair. I don’t think LeBron would ever get suspended even though he’s one of the worst at embellishing.. what do you do with Embiid when he falls after every play? Etc
 

HomeRunBaker

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Totally agree that the game is too fast for the refs. I wouldn’t have the game refs call it. If I guy flops they should just ignore it and not call a foul. I would have all games reviewed and fine and suspend guys like they do with technical fouls. It is not perfect but I don’t agree with just saying there is nothing to be done and throwing up your hands. Leagues should try and make the game better.
i bolded the point you are missing. The game is so fast that officials cannot determine what is a flop and what is not at game speed....if they knew it was a flop they would address it as such. It's easy on slo-mo replay in the living room.

Officials have been making calls based on player reactions going back to when I played decades ago. I had one of the most highly respected college officials tell me directly that many of the calls that are made are based on the reactions (prior to flopping being a thing once players figured out that they could sell calls with their reactions) and what certain players are capable of doing.
 

Just a bit outside

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i bolded the point you are missing. The game is so fast that officials cannot determine what is a flop and what is not at game speed....if they knew it was a flop they would address it as such. It's easy on slo-mo replay in the living room.

Officials have been making calls based on player reactions going back to when I played decades ago. I had one of the most highly respected college officials tell me directly that many of the calls that are made are based on the reactions (prior to flopping being a thing once players figured out that they could sell calls with their reactions) and what certain players are capable of doing.
What I meant is that the refs should call it to the best of their abilities. If they see a guy flopped they should just not call a foul. Thee are clearly plays when a player flops or overreacts and they don’t call a foul. I assume it is because they knew it was an embellishment.
 

luckiestman

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That’s just what the league needs.. another arbitrary system that will potentially significantly hurt or help teams. The league hasn’t built up the amount of trust required to put a system in place like this that could ever be deemed fair. I don’t think LeBron would ever get suspended even though he’s one of the worst at embellishing.. what do you do with Embiid when he falls after every play? Etc
If you punish bad behavior strongly enough you rarely have to deal with that behavior. I’ve been hit a lot of times in my life. Watching these phenomenal athletes react to minor contact as if they have been shot to trick referees is really difficult to watch. The fake head snap back alone should be an ejection.