Noah's Arc: Song back, assigned to GVL.

natpastime162

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,944
Pennsylvania
Do you want a quick payday or to play in the big leagues? The former is easy, you take the month or two in the majors. The latter is the better hypothetical. In that case I think the opinions in the preceding posts (and perhaps Song’s own) come from hubris and arrogance. There’s a reason I compared his situation (but not the individual) to Wily Mo Peña. Teams don’t develop major leaguers through janitorial service in blowouts, short of ones with nothing else to prove in AAA.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Thanks. Honestly didn't know.
I was wondering if it was in his possible self-interest to deliberately throw meatballs and get the snot kicked out of him so he'd return to the Sox single-A and could acclimate a bit more. Of course that might just happen anyways. I'd be happy as hell for him if he legitimately pitched his way onto the Philly roster though.
ZERO POINT ZERO PERCENT CHANCE OF THAT.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
14,283
This should be a limited innings season regardless after that much time off, so if he can pitch competitively (not well, but not embarrassing) in MLB for 50 innings, that's ok.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,347
ZERO POINT ZERO PERCENT CHANCE OF THAT.
Of course.... it was a hypothetical question set up to figure out what would be best for his career- to figure out a way to get back to Sox single A or to ride the pine on the Phillies ML club. I'm pretty dumb but that level is deeper than the depths I've plumbed.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,163
OR the team that ends up with him offers the Sox someone else that they prefer vs. taking Song back, and he can be sent to that team’s minor leagues.
These are the 2003 and 2004 transactions for a guy the Sox had named Matt White, who they had ever so briefly.

December 16, 2002: Drafted by the Boston Red Sox from the Cleveland Indians in the 2002 rule 5 draft.
June 6, 2003: Traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Seattle Mariners for Sheldon Fulse (minors).
June 30, 2003: Returned (earlier draft pick) by the Seattle Mariners to the Cleveland Indians.
December 15, 2003: Drafted by the Colorado Rockies from the Cleveland Indians in the 2003 rule 5 draft.
March 17, 2004: Returned (earlier draft pick) by the Colorado Rockies to the Cleveland Indians.
June 4, 2004: Sent to the Kansas City Royals by the Cleveland Indians as part of a conditional deal.
October 4, 2004: Granted Free Agency.

1. Mr. White got (Rule 5) drafted twice.
2. The Sox traded him to the Mariners (after he gave up 11 earned runs in 3 appearances); the Mariners returned him to Cleveland in 3 1/2 weeks.
3. Gordon Edes mentioned him that spring and early season ad nauseum; Abraham seems to be repeating history. Hopefully Song is not as horrible as White was.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
These are the 2003 and 2004 transactions for a guy the Sox had named Matt White, who they had ever so briefly.

December 16, 2002: Drafted by the Boston Red Sox from the Cleveland Indians in the 2002 rule 5 draft.
June 6, 2003: Traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Seattle Mariners for Sheldon Fulse (minors).
June 30, 2003: Returned (earlier draft pick) by the Seattle Mariners to the Cleveland Indians.
December 15, 2003: Drafted by the Colorado Rockies from the Cleveland Indians in the 2003 rule 5 draft.
March 17, 2004: Returned (earlier draft pick) by the Colorado Rockies to the Cleveland Indians.
June 4, 2004: Sent to the Kansas City Royals by the Cleveland Indians as part of a conditional deal.
October 4, 2004: Granted Free Agency.

1. Mr. White got (Rule 5) drafted twice.
2. The Sox traded him to the Mariners (after he gave up 11 earned runs in 3 appearances); the Mariners returned him to Cleveland in 3 1/2 weeks.
3. Gordon Edes mentioned him that spring and early season ad nauseum; Abraham seems to be repeating history. Hopefully Song is not as horrible as White was.
Is that dirt billionaire Matt White?

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/03/sports/baseball/03white.html
 

GB5

New Member
Aug 26, 2013
675
I have seen others stating Song would take the month in the majors. I would sign for one day in the majors, let alone a month. He hasn’t played in 3 years. The odds he ever sees a day in the majors without this Rule V stuff is dramatically against him. One day in the majors is just an insane accomplishment.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
3,163

Bread of Yaz

New Member
Mar 12, 2019
373

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
14,283
Yep. Not sure exactly how that played out; remember he hit a financial wall trying to mine the stuff; might have ultimately sold the property.

The other thing about him was that every time Edes mentioned him it was with the preface "Rule 5 Lefthander"; you'd have thought it was part of his name!
Had to file for bankruptcy in 2014 & sell the property:

His attorney, Steven Weiss, of the Springfield-based law firm Shatz, Schwartz and Fentin, said the quarry filed for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 last fall to stop a foreclosure on the property. Skelly and Loy Inc., an engineering and environmental consulting firm based in Harrisburg, Pa., has appraised its value at between $2 million and $4 million, according to White.
https://www.gazettenet.com/Archives/2014/10/SWIFTRIVERSTONE-HG-100814

The post script is...

White sold the land in 2020 for an undisclosed amount.
https://a-z-animals.com/blog/major-league-baseball-player-finds-treasure-worth-billions/
 

Mantush

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2014
408
He has to stay on their active roster (if healthy) or 10 day IL (if injured). He'll be returned to the Sox if he's injured for any significant amount of time unless the Phillies want to have a dead spot on their 40 man.
 

Sad Sam Jones

Member
SoSH Member
May 5, 2017
2,494
It was always obvious he'd spend time on the IL since he's in no way prepared to handle a full season's workload, but you can't really game the requirement to be on the active roster for 90 days. If they can't meet that requirement in 2023, they're still required to carry him on the roster until he does meet the requirement (in 2024) before they obtain his rights free and clear.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
It was always obvious he'd spend time on the IL since he's in no way prepared to handle a full season's workload, but you can't really game the requirement to be on the active roster for 90 days. If they can't meet that requirement in 2023, they're still required to carry him on the roster until he does meet the requirement (in 2024) before they obtain his rights free and clear.
Maybe something I'm missing but to me it seems like a team could completely game it, especially with a pitcher. In this case, they could put him on the IL and have him throw maybe 120 simulated innings over the course of the season, then next year he breaks camp, stays up 90 days and then can be optioned and controlled for years to come. Am I missing something?

View: https://twitter.com/SamDykstraMiLB/status/1634561044449247233
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Maybe something I'm missing but to me it seems like a team could completely game it, especially with a pitcher. In this case, they could put him on the IL and have him throw maybe 120 simulated innings over the course of the season, then next year he breaks camp, stays up 90 days and then can be optioned and controlled for years to come. Am I missing something?

View: https://twitter.com/SamDykstraMiLB/status/1634561044449247233
They could do the same thing this year with the 90 days
 

czar

fanboy
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
4,312
Ann Arbor
Maybe something I'm missing but to me it seems like a team could completely game it, especially with a pitcher. In this case, they could put him on the IL and have him throw maybe 120 simulated innings over the course of the season, then next year he breaks camp, stays up 90 days and then can be optioned and controlled for years to come. Am I missing something?

View: https://twitter.com/SamDykstraMiLB/status/1634561044449247233
Well, if the Red Sox really believed the Phillies were gaming the system they'd file a grievance. Not sure how successful that would be with "back tightness" or "elbow soreness" that doesn't really show much on an MRI, but eh.
 

Sad Sam Jones

Member
SoSH Member
May 5, 2017
2,494
Yeah, maybe we're using the term "game" differently, I'm just saying the rule about spending 90 days on the active roster is clear and non-negotiable. A lot of fans don't seem to understand the rule and think you can stash a guy on the IL and as long as he's still in the organization at the end of the 2023 season he belongs to the drafting team, which isn't accurate. I recall someone in the last couple of years, maybe Trevor Stephan, not meeting the requirement until the following April. The team wasn't trying to do anything nefarious and was clearly planning to keep him, but he was legitimately injured late in the season, so his spot on the opening day roster was locked in the following spring because he still needed a couple of weeks on the roster to fulfill the requirement.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,084
Maybe something I'm missing but to me it seems like a team could completely game it, especially with a pitcher. In this case, they could put him on the IL and have him throw maybe 120 simulated innings over the course of the season, then next year he breaks camp, stays up 90 days and then can be optioned and controlled for years to come. Am I missing something?

View: https://twitter.com/SamDykstraMiLB/status/1634561044449247233
You could do this, but if a pitcher is throwing 120 simulated innings then he is not injured and they’d absolutely be under significant scrutiny on the situation.

It’s very interesting. It’s definitely in their best interest for him to be on the IL and get a full offseason under his belt and try again next year.

All sorts of conflicts of interest in this particular case.
 

Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
814
(B)Austin Texas
I don't know him, nor have I read much about his personality or morality, but a Navy pilot would have to agree to the sham and work under a cloak of invisibility, and he would have to be willing to miss the whole year. I don't trust the Phillies, necessarily, but I doubt Mr. Song would cooperate with anything not above board.
 

gehrig

New Member
Apr 18, 2008
22
He's going on the IL for not being in shape to pitch, and the Phillies are going to see if anybody will stop them from taking 4 months to ramp him up before a soft July 1st deadline to put him in the majors (so he can finish up his 90 days on the active roster requirement this season). This entire thing is completely against the spirit of the Rule 5.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,084
I don't know him, nor have I read much about his personality or morality, but a Navy pilot would have to agree to the sham and work under a cloak of invisibility, and he would have to be willing to miss the whole year. I don't trust the Phillies, necessarily, but I doubt Mr. Song would cooperate with anything not above board.
He’s going to make like 20x more money and his clock is going to start.

Let’s not be naive here.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,275
I don't know him, nor have I read much about his personality or morality, but a Navy pilot would have to agree to the sham and work under a cloak of invisibility, and he would have to be willing to miss the whole year. I don't trust the Phillies, necessarily, but I doubt Mr. Song would cooperate with anything not above board.
Y
Yup. And we will know very soon if the sox believe that DD is trying to game the system and screw over his former employer. as others said he will file a grievance if he believes everything is not on the up and up
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
He's going on the IL for not being in shape to pitch, and the Phillies are going to see if anybody will stop them from taking 4 months to ramp him up before a soft July 1st deadline to put him in the majors (so he can finish up his 90 days on the active roster requirement this season). This entire thing is completely against the spirit of the Rule 5.
Seems like a lot of work for a guy who will be 26 next spring and has never pitched above short-season A ball.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
29,053
Alamogordo
I don't know him, nor have I read much about his personality or morality, but a Navy pilot would have to agree to the sham and work under a cloak of invisibility, and he would have to be willing to miss the whole year. I don't trust the Phillies, necessarily, but I doubt Mr. Song would cooperate with anything not above board.
He's going to make more this year than he probably did his entire time in the Navy.

Having spent 21 years in the military, I can 100% say that I am willing to bet he will do whatever he can to get that paycheck, and I don't blame him. We aren't the heroes many want to attribute to us.
 

Blizzard of 1978

@drballs
Sep 12, 2022
503
New Hampshire
He's going to make more this year than he probably did his entire time in the Navy.

Having spent 21 years in the military, I can 100% say that I am willing to bet he will do whatever he can to get that paycheck, and I don't blame him. We aren't the heroes many want to attribute to us.
Agreed. Was in Desert Storm. They paid nothing! If I Song get the baseball money and retire.
 

katnado

New Member
Aug 14, 2016
1,528
Alaska
He's going to make more this year than he probably did his entire time in the Navy.

Having spent 21 years in the military, I can 100% say that I am willing to bet he will do whatever he can to get that paycheck, and I don't blame him. We aren't the heroes many want to attribute to us.
22 years and counting in the Army here, 100% this. He'll say and do whatever he needs to in order to get that check. I don't blame him either. Hell I'd probably do the same.
 

greenmountains

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 24, 2023
48
There's getting the check...and there is looking out for his career. He can earn 720k minimum this year (I actually don't know what happens when he's on the IL). And if he doesn't really pitch, it sets him backwards. This is a Naval Academy graduate with an engineering degree, not a high school kid. He's already set up to make a ton of money in his non baseball career given the Academy's connections.

I'd expect Song and his advisors are trying to figure out what's the best path for his baseball career. 720k for a year doesn't seem like a gamebreaker if it hinders his development. And his advisors know that.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,238
It could be about the money, but I think it's more likely about his first, probably best, and maybe only chance at being in the big leagues without some sort of multi-year tour through the minors. Maybe he's ok with the chances of being a MLB rookie at 29 or 30. But those guys seem to be the baseball lifers that have been bouncing around since they were 20. He's just short of 26 and has had a fraction of a season in the minors.
 

Squeteague

New Member
May 8, 2021
27
There's getting the check...and there is looking out for his career. He can earn 720k minimum this year (I actually don't know what happens when he's on the IL). And if he doesn't really pitch, it sets him backwards. This is a Naval Academy graduate with an engineering degree, not a high school kid. He's already set up to make a ton of money in his non baseball career given the Academy's connections.

I'd expect Song and his advisors are trying to figure out what's the best path for his baseball career. 720k for a year doesn't seem like a gamebreaker if it hinders his development. And his advisors know that.
Per MLB.com, IL has no effect on pay, players are paid and receive Major League service time for each day spent on the 26-man roster or the Major League injured list.
 

Pat Spillane

New Member
Feb 12, 2021
61
Is Dombrowski doing this out of spite alone. Song may or may not develop into something but this seems more spite driven
 

geoflin

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2004
709
Melrose MA
Is Dombrowski doing this out of spite alone. Song may or may not develop into something but this seems more spite driven
I can't imagine a GM of a team generally considered to be one of the favorites for the division carrying a player on the 26 man roster most of the year out of spite for another team. This makes no sense.
 

BravesField

New Member
Oct 27, 2021
252
I can't imagine a GM of a team generally considered to be one of the favorites for the division carrying a player on the 26 man roster most of the year out of spite for another team. This makes no sense.
Completely agree. And let's not forget that the Phillies were the 6th seed that really overachieved last year, and I'm sure they needed all 26 guys on the roster to get where they got to. Can you imagine the blowback from the press and the fan base if DD carries Song all year on the roster and the Phillies just barely miss October baseball? That's too much risk for DD.

IMO, the Phillies with either move Song to another team (Oakland, KC?) where they may be able to bury him on the 26 man roster, or just return him to Boston.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,719
Seems like it would take a tremendous lack of self awareness for him not to be able to assess that he's very unlikely to make it back to the majors if he goes down to A ball as a 26 year old after three years away from the game.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Seems like it would take a tremendous lack of self awareness for him not to be able to assess that he's very unlikely to make it back to the majors if he goes down to A ball as a 26 year old after three years away from the game.
Right, but elite athletes aren't like us, especially where confidence is concerned. Also his age doesn't matter if the stuff is there. It's not like he's a 26 year old who's been bumbling along in the minors.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Dave Dombrowski really what's to stick it to Red Sox owners. We will see.
This is dumb. Dombrowski didn't draft Song out of spite. He took him because he likes him as a prospect and wants him in his organization. It is as simple as that. Any action he takes to retain Song long term will be for that reason and that reason only.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,347
I wouldn’t blame him if he also felt a little extra joy and titillation that in addition to just wanting Song (as he did draft him)… it’s also likely annoying (at best) to the Sox.