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E5 Yaz

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Wonder if the Eagles front office had fun making that deal
 

luckiestman

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Sorry I should specify. What did Philly save because it seems like they got a lot back for a guy I thought they owed a lot of money to that they were not hot to play.
 

Cellar-Door

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Sorry I should specify. What did Philly save because it seems like they got a lot back for a guy I thought they owed a lot of money to that they were not hot to play.
They took a 33.8M cap hit. He would have been paid 34.6M to play, so they saved less than $1M.
 

Carmine Hose

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So the Pats are going to trade for Jacoby Brissett and draft someone in the mid rounds, aren't they?

Edit - He was only signed through 2020. I thought they tacked the two years on, but they replaced the 2019 year on his rookie contract
 

luckiestman

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They took a 33.8M cap hit. He would have been paid 34.6M to play, so they saved less than $1M.
Okay, then my instinct is this is a fair deal. If Wentz sucks Philly wins, if Wentz is good, Indy wins. I can see either scenario happening so fair deal.
 

rodderick

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Hmmm....

Pats trade #15 this year, a 2022 second rounder and Gilmore. Who says no?
I think at #6 you'd probably be in a similar position to #15: the top 4 QBs off the board and a lot of talent at receiver/corner/linebacker to draft from. I wouldn't do it unless, say, Fields is on the board.
 

axx

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Okay, then my instinct is this is a fair deal. If Wentz sucks Philly wins, if Wentz is good, Indy wins. I can see either scenario happening so fair deal.
Problem is that second has a very good chance of becoming a first even if he sucks as long as he doesn't get hurt. And if he sucks that could be a pretty high first.
 

luckiestman

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Problem is that second has a very good chance of becoming a first even if he sucks. And if he sucks that could be a pretty high first.
If he sucks, Indy will know and do what they can to not play him, right?
 

sodenj5

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Problem is that second has a very good chance of becoming a first even if he sucks. And if he sucks that could be a pretty high first.
My initial reaction was that conditional is likely going to end up being a first, especially since Indy keeps their first and second round picks this year.

Even if Wentz is awful to mediocre, the rest of the team is pretty good and Reich is likely going to give him a pretty long leash. Indy also doesn’t really have a Plan B. Jalen Hurts and Nick Foles aren’t behind Wentz.

Short of an injury, I would imagine Wentz hits that escalator and they’re coughing up a first round pick.
 

Mooch

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I think at #6 you'd probably be in a similar position to #15: the top 4 QBs off the board and a lot of talent at receiver/corner/linebacker to draft from. I wouldn't do it unless, say, Fields is on the board.
My target would be Lance.
 

kelpapa

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Given Wentz's history, couldn't this be as much an injury clause as it is a "he sucks" clause?
This was my thought at first, but if you're going off regular season (which I assume the clause is), he hasn't actually missed that many snaps. He would have qualified for this in 3 out of 5 years, and had he not been benched last year, it would have only been 1 time in 5 years that he missed it. Snap counts pulled from QBs on this site.
2020 - 69% of snaps despite being benched the last four games.
2019 - >90% of snaps.
2018 - 66% of snaps.
2017 - 78% of snaps.
2016 - Site doesn't go back that far, but he played in every game, and his backup only had one attempt. He was north of 90% of snaps and probably closer to 99%.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Hmmm....

Pats trade #15 this year, a 2022 second rounder and Gilmore. Who says no?
This was where my mind went as well (or use Gilmore to fetch a 2021 second-rounder elsewhere, like Dallas). I would expect one of the top 4 QBs would still be there at 1-6 (any of whom, I think, would make this worthwhile from a Pats perspective), but you probably don't want to take that risk until draft night if you can help it.

So... does Philly tell QB hungry teams they need to move the pick before the draft, to protect against a 1-4 QB run?
 

Oil Can Dan

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As an Eagle fan this trade stinks. An organizational failure from top to bottom. He's going to kick ass in Indy and I will be happy to see it.
 

Cellar-Door

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As an Eagle fan this trade stinks. An organizational failure from top to bottom. He's going to kick ass in Indy and I will be happy to see it.
Indy makes it interesting, since his best year by far came with Reich.

On the other hand, he was between average and bad every other season, and his clean pocket stats are horrific, so good chance he's not worth his deal even with the bonuses gone.
 

ehaz

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Hmmm....

Pats trade #15 this year, a 2022 second rounder and Gilmore. Who says no?
If Bill thinks Trey Lance is the future, you do it every time. But I don’t think you have a shot at Wilson/Fields at #6.

The issue with trading up to get a QB this year is that both the #2 and #3 picks are division rivals. My hope is that MIA doesn’t trade down from #3 and picks a non-QB. Then you can trade up with ATL to #4 and pick between two of Wilson/Fields/Lance.

I’m hoping ATL thinks they have 3 or 4 years of Ryan left. #15 + Gilmore (or whatever pick you get for him from a 3rd team) + 2022 1st rounder is a starting point.
 

JCizzle

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Indy makes it interesting, since his best year by far came with Reich.

On the other hand, he was between average and bad every other season, and his clean pocket stats are horrific, so good chance he's not worth his deal even with the bonuses gone.
I don't follow the Eagles closely, but hasn't he been throwing to relative trash (other than the TEs) for a couple of years now? I checked out their 2019 wiki, and this was the final WR roster that year:
Yuck.
 

sodenj5

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As an Eagle fan this trade stinks. An organizational failure from top to bottom. He's going to kick ass in Indy and I will be happy to see it.
Will he? He’s regressed immensely.

I would imagine his issues are largely mental. He’s been beat up physically, but whether it’s worrying about QB2 looking over his shoulder or worried about getting hurt, he was pretty terrible last year.

Indy has a better line and his preferred coach. Maybe the change of scenery gives him a reset.
If Bill thinks Trey Lance is the future, you do it every time. But I don’t think you have a shot at Wilson/Fields at #6.

The issue with trading up to get a QB this year is that both the #2 and #3 picks are division rivals. My hope is that MIA doesn’t trade down from #3 and picks a non-QB. Then you can trade up with ATL to #4 and pick between two of Wilson/Fields/Lance.

I’m hoping ATL thinks they have 3 or 4 years of Ryan left. #15 + Gilmore (or whatever pick you get for him from a 3rd team) + 2022 1st rounder is a starting point.
I think if 1 and 2 are QB, there’s a pretty high chance Miami is trading out of 3 to someone banging on their door to get QB3 or Sewell.

Lots of mocks have Carolina trading with Miami at 3. That makes a lot of sense. Miami likely gets a WR and an extra future first rounder. Carolina gets Fields or Wilson.
 

tims4wins

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Could also offer 15 + 46 + Gilmore for 4 (4 is worth 1800 per Stuart chart, 15 + 46 = 1490, so it would be valuing Gilmore at 310 or the 59th pick, seems about right), but I doubt BB would want a gap from 4 to 99 or whatever the Pats 3rd round comp pick is.
 

Captaincoop

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If Bill thinks Trey Lance is the future, you do it every time. But I don’t think you have a shot at Wilson/Fields at #6.

The issue with trading up to get a QB this year is that both the #2 and #3 picks are division rivals. My hope is that MIA doesn’t trade down from #3 and picks a non-QB. Then you can trade up with ATL to #4 and pick between two of Wilson/Fields/Lance.

I’m hoping ATL thinks they have 3 or 4 years of Ryan left. #15 + Gilmore (or whatever pick you get for him from a 3rd team) + 2022 1st rounder is a starting point.
I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.

Cincy seems like the biggest trade-down risk ahead of #6. Maybe Atlanta, but they could sure use some top-end talent if they're riding with Ryan.
 

E5 Yaz

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Lots of mocks have Carolina trading with Miami at 3. That makes a lot of sense. Miami likely gets a WR and an extra future first rounder. Carolina gets Fields or Wilson.
Yeah, Carolina at 8, Denver at 9 and SF at 12 all could be more enticing than a team like the Eagles going all the way down to 15.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't follow the Eagles closely, but hasn't he been throwing to relative trash (other than the TEs) for a couple of years now? I checked out their 2019 wiki, and this was the final WR roster that year:
Yuck.
He does have 2 top TEs though in Ertz and Goedert.

But it's more than that, his on-target throws and INT% from clean pockets is garbage, and that is not a WR issue. Yes he doesn't have top WRs (though Agholor in LV was suddenly a much more productive player) but he's just not executing throws either, and watching him, his footwork and processing both look terrible. He's been in a pretty steep 3 year decline that bottomed out as legit probably the worst QB in the league last year.

He could be pretty good, but it won't be because of better WRs. If he improves it will be because they fix his footwork, and give him a lot of easy reads and easy throws.
 
I’m hoping ATL thinks they have 3 or 4 years of Ryan left. #15 + Gilmore (or whatever pick you get for him from a 3rd team) + 2022 1st rounder is a starting point.
Could also offer 15 + 46 + Gilmore for 4 (4 is worth 1800 per Stuart chart, 15 + 46 = 1490, so it would be valuing Gilmore at 310 or the 59th pick, seems about right), but I doubt BB would want a gap from 4 to 99 or whatever the Pats 3rd round comp pick is.
These are among the first Patriots-Falcons trades I've seen proposed on SoSH that I'm not immediately inclined to laugh at. The #4 pick is very much in play, and there are certainly many people - both fans and people within the organization - who think Ryan could indeed have plenty left in the tank. So you guys might be onto something here.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.

Cincy seems like the biggest trade-down risk ahead of #6. Maybe Atlanta, but they could sure use some top-end talent if they're riding with Ryan.
I thought the cheap, intellectual coward Bengals had a rep for never trading.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.

Cincy seems like the biggest trade-down risk ahead of #6. Maybe Atlanta, but they could sure use some top-end talent if they're riding with Ryan.
This is right. All rides on Atlanta. We know QBs are going to go 1+2. Unless the dolphins are giving up the 3rd overall for Watson, they arent trading that pick.

Atlanta seems to be about 1 year too far away on Matty Ices contract to draft a QB. Hes not really tradeable/cuttable for the next two seasons because of dead cap (although...Wentz...), and it's hard to draft a guy 4th overall and burn 2 full seasons of his rookie contract on the bench.

If Bill wants one of those 3 guys, I think Atlanta is a viable trade partner. You cant pull the trigger until draft day after Miami makes their pick, but I do think it's a real option.
 

E5 Yaz

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Who's the next domino to fall? Watson will take a while, if at all. Wonder if the Bears, SF or Denver is interested in gambling on Darnold
 

DJnVa

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I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.
I agree with this. The NFL window is very small, and Miami *may* be on the cusp of theirs opening. I think they are in the pure "best player available" stage.
 

E5 Yaz

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I agree with this. The NFL window is very small, and Miami *may* be on the cusp of theirs opening. I think they are in the pure "best player available" stage.
Especially when you consider that, if their progress continues, they won't be drafting this high again for a while. This is the one they cash in -- either in a slyer, or extremely over-compensated in trade
 

Super Nomario

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I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.
I think there are plenty of "have your cake and eat it too" scenarios where you trade down to like 7 and still get a blue chip guy and also pocket another top 50 pick. Two quality players is better than one.

He does have 2 top TEs though in Ertz and Goedert.

But it's more than that, his on-target throws and INT% from clean pockets is garbage, and that is not a WR issue. Yes he doesn't have top WRs (though Agholor in LV was suddenly a much more productive player) but he's just not executing throws either, and watching him, his footwork and processing both look terrible. He's been in a pretty steep 3 year decline that bottomed out as legit probably the worst QB in the league last year.

He could be pretty good, but it won't be because of better WRs. If he improves it will be because they fix his footwork, and give him a lot of easy reads and easy throws.
Ertz was still effective in 2019, but he looked washed last year. He also missed five games, as did Goedert.

The other issue was Philly's offensive line: Brooks and Dillard missed the whole year, Lane Johnson missed 9 games, Isaac Seumalo missed 7 games, Jason Peters (who was only signed after Brooks got hurt) missed 8 games. It was basically the line Mahomes played behind in the Super Bowl, except all season long. I'm not saying Wentz didn't have issues (and even his one great season was overrated), but I think it would be nearly impossible for a QB to be effective in those conditions.
 

Cellar-Door

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The other issue was Philly's offensive line: Brooks and Dillard missed the whole year, Lane Johnson missed 9 games, Isaac Seumalo missed 7 games, Jason Peters (who was only signed after Brooks got hurt) missed 8 games. It was basically the line Mahomes played behind in the Super Bowl, except all season long. I'm not saying Wentz didn't have issues (and even his one great season was overrated), but I think it would be nearly impossible for a QB to be effective in those conditions.
Hot take.... I think a number (like 30+) of other QBs, including out own Cameron Newton could have been more effective. It was a bad spot, no doubt, but Wentz absolutely collapsed in every way.

I mean, they put in a raw mid-round rookie to replace him and got much better production. That tells me that while the situation was bad, Wentz was part of the problem. Great QBs elevate talent, good QBs play above the talent level. If you get put in a bad situation and you're the worst in the league, and your replacement plays much better..... that tells me you're JAG.
 

Oil Can Dan

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Hot take.... I think a number (like 30+) of other QBs, including out own Cameron Newton could have been more effective. It was a bad spot, no doubt, but Wentz absolutely collapsed in every way.

I mean, they put in a raw mid-round rookie to replace him and got much better production. That tells me that while the situation was bad, Wentz was part of the problem. Great QBs elevate talent, good QBs play above the talent level. If you get put in a bad situation and you're the worst in the league, and your replacement plays much better..... that tells me you're JAG.
Two points:
1. Hurts was a mid-2nd round pick (#53 overall), not a mid-round rookie. Small nitpick but relevant. The Eagles FO did Wentz no favors by drafting a QB in the 2nd round less than a year after giving him an expensive, long-term contract and locking him down as the face of your franchise. It was literally the most shocking pick I've ever seen them make in the 35+ years I've been watching their drafts. Wentz may be overly sensitive or whatever but here's a guy that you know had issues with the fact that he had to sit and watch Foles win the Bowl, and you don't get him a WR or OL or anything to help in the 2nd round, but instead you draft a QB. And he's only 27 years old, so like yeah, WTF is going on here? Thanks Philly...
2. Wentz did exactly as you say he should have in 2019. He put a team of practice squaders on his back and dragged them into the playoffs. He was literally playing with WRs that were on the street a month prior and he made it happen. The OL and WRs were decimated and he carried the team.

He had a terrible, terrible 2020 season no doubt, and I agree his 2017 wasn't as great as it looked as nobody could sustain his/their 3rd down success long term. But he's still a guy I'd want at QB and this is a terrible outcome for the Eagles. I feel like I did when Nomar was traded - that it was all just a shame it had to work out like this.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Could also offer 15 + 46 + Gilmore for 4 (4 is worth 1800 per Stuart chart, 15 + 46 = 1490, so it would be valuing Gilmore at 310 or the 59th pick, seems about right), but I doubt BB would want a gap from 4 to 99 or whatever the Pats 3rd round comp pick is.
I wonder if something along the lines of 15 +'22 1st + Gilmore for the #4 would work? Gilmore & #15 to help compete this year and it give's ATL another 1st round pick next year, possibly to target a Matt Ryan long-term replacement who can sit behind him for a year. Might be a little light.

But that would allow Bill to keep 46 and avoid that big gap between 4 & 110 (not 99). I'm also of the thought that if your guy is there at #4, who cares about not having a pick between 4 & 110? If 46 gets the deal done, give it up and figure out how to get back into the draft. They could try to trade a vet or two for 2nd/3rd round picks if Bill is looking to get back into the draft before #110.

If ATL does move the pick, I think someone like CAR or DEN makes more sense, but I guess a lot depends on how much they value Gilmore in this situation.
 

sodenj5

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I don't see Miami passing on the opportunity to have their choice of any player in the draft outside of QBs. They seem to be at the point in team building where adding an absolute bona fide stud is more valuable than adding to their volume of picks.

Cincy seems like the biggest trade-down risk ahead of #6. Maybe Atlanta, but they could sure use some top-end talent if they're riding with Ryan.
Except if the absolute stud they want is WR1, and they can not only take the exact same player at 6 or 8 but also get a few extra second rounders tossed in.

Philly and Carolina are both likely in the QB market along with ATL. One of those teams are likely to pony up a few picks to secure “their guy” at 3.

6 with Philly likely means Miami gets their choice of WR if QBs go 1-3, ATL takes whoever, maybe Pitts maybe Parsons maybe QB4, and Cincy goes Sewell. Now Miami takes WR1, and maybe pockets an extra 2 second rounders as well.
 
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BaseballJones

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15 + Gilmore + 22 first would be fair.

The Pats don’t have any comp picks this year?
Does anyone here think that a guy like Lance is worth investing their 2021 and 2022 first round picks plus an all pro corner to select?

I mean he’s intriguing but my god that seems like a steep price to pay. Do we have any idea if he’s actually GOOD?
 

Super Nomario

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I'm out on trading a 2022 first. This team has basically no floor for 2021, especially if we're trading our best player (Gilmore) and drafting a rookie QB.
 

tims4wins

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Re: comp picks, I guess the NFL hasn't announced them yet. I think the Pats are projected to get a 3rd rounder and two 4th rounders (Brady, Collins, Van Noy)