And 2-4 against the other 1983 Quarterback Super Draft HOF'er Jim Kelly. Well it could have went worse for the NEP, Todd Blackledge.
NFL 100 All-Time Team Co-Hosted by Bill Belichick
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Just because @snowmanny brought up Brady/Peyton....here they are in their head-to-head matchups:
9/30/01 - at NE 44, Ind 13
- Peyton: 20-34, 196 yds, 1 td, 3 int
- Brady: 13-23, 168 yds, 0 td, 0 int
10/21/01 - NE 38, at Ind 17
- Peyton: 22-34, 335 yds, 1 td, 0 int
- Brady: 16-20, 202 yds, 3 td, 0 int
11/30/03 - NE 38, at Ind 34
- Peyton: 29-48, 278 yds, 4 td, 1 int
- Brady: 26-35, 236 yds, 2 td, 2 int
1/18/04 - at NE 24, Ind 14 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 23-47, 237 yds, 1 td, 4 int
- Brady: 22-37, 237 yds, 1 td, 1 int
9/9/04 - at NE 27, Ind 24
- Peyton: 16-29, 256 yds, 2 td, 1int
- Brady: 26-38, 335 yds, 3 td, 1 int
1/16/05 - at NE 20, Ind 3 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 27-42, 238 yds, 0 td, 1 int
- Brady: 18-27, 144 yds, 1 td, 0 int
11/7/05 - NE 21, at Ind 40
- Peyton: 28-37, 321 yds, 3 td, 0 int
- Brady: 22-33, 265 yds, 3 td, 0 int
11/5/06 - at NE 20, Ind 27
- Peyton: 20-36, 326 yds, 2 td, 1 int
- Brady: 20-35, 201 yds, 0 td, 4 int
1/21/07 - NE 34, at Ind 38 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 27-47, 349 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 21-34, 232 yds, 1 td, 1 int
11/4/07 - NE 24, at Ind 20
- Peyton: 16-27, 225 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 21-32, 255 yds, 3 td, 2 int
11/15/09: NE 34, at Ind 35
- Peyton: 28-44, 327 yds, 4 td, 2 int
- Brady: 29-42, 375 yds, 3 td, 1 int
11/21/10: at NE 31, Ind 28
- Peyton: 38-52, 396 yds, 4 td, 3 int
- Brady: 19-25, 186 yds, 2 td, 0 int
11/24/13: at NE 34, Den 31
- Peyton: 19-36, 150 yds, 2 td, 1 int
- Brady: 34-50, 344 yds, 3 td, 0 int
1/19/14: NE 16, at Den 26 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 32-43, 400 yds, 2 td, 0 int
- Brady: 24-38, 277 yds, 1 td, 0 int
11/2/14: at NE 43, Den 21
- Peyton: 34-57, 438 yds, 2 td, 2 int
- Brady: 33-53, 333 yds, 4 td, 1 int
11/29/15: NE 24, at Den 31
- Peyton: 23-42, 270 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 23-42, 280 yds, 3 td, 0 int
1/24/16: NE 18, at Den 20 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 17-32, 176 yds, 2 td, 0 int
- Brady: 27-56, 310 yds, 1 td, 2 int
Brady finished 10-7 against Peyton, 2-3 in the playoffs. Fun to look back.
9/30/01 - at NE 44, Ind 13
- Peyton: 20-34, 196 yds, 1 td, 3 int
- Brady: 13-23, 168 yds, 0 td, 0 int
10/21/01 - NE 38, at Ind 17
- Peyton: 22-34, 335 yds, 1 td, 0 int
- Brady: 16-20, 202 yds, 3 td, 0 int
11/30/03 - NE 38, at Ind 34
- Peyton: 29-48, 278 yds, 4 td, 1 int
- Brady: 26-35, 236 yds, 2 td, 2 int
1/18/04 - at NE 24, Ind 14 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 23-47, 237 yds, 1 td, 4 int
- Brady: 22-37, 237 yds, 1 td, 1 int
9/9/04 - at NE 27, Ind 24
- Peyton: 16-29, 256 yds, 2 td, 1int
- Brady: 26-38, 335 yds, 3 td, 1 int
1/16/05 - at NE 20, Ind 3 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 27-42, 238 yds, 0 td, 1 int
- Brady: 18-27, 144 yds, 1 td, 0 int
11/7/05 - NE 21, at Ind 40
- Peyton: 28-37, 321 yds, 3 td, 0 int
- Brady: 22-33, 265 yds, 3 td, 0 int
11/5/06 - at NE 20, Ind 27
- Peyton: 20-36, 326 yds, 2 td, 1 int
- Brady: 20-35, 201 yds, 0 td, 4 int
1/21/07 - NE 34, at Ind 38 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 27-47, 349 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 21-34, 232 yds, 1 td, 1 int
11/4/07 - NE 24, at Ind 20
- Peyton: 16-27, 225 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 21-32, 255 yds, 3 td, 2 int
11/15/09: NE 34, at Ind 35
- Peyton: 28-44, 327 yds, 4 td, 2 int
- Brady: 29-42, 375 yds, 3 td, 1 int
11/21/10: at NE 31, Ind 28
- Peyton: 38-52, 396 yds, 4 td, 3 int
- Brady: 19-25, 186 yds, 2 td, 0 int
11/24/13: at NE 34, Den 31
- Peyton: 19-36, 150 yds, 2 td, 1 int
- Brady: 34-50, 344 yds, 3 td, 0 int
1/19/14: NE 16, at Den 26 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 32-43, 400 yds, 2 td, 0 int
- Brady: 24-38, 277 yds, 1 td, 0 int
11/2/14: at NE 43, Den 21
- Peyton: 34-57, 438 yds, 2 td, 2 int
- Brady: 33-53, 333 yds, 4 td, 1 int
11/29/15: NE 24, at Den 31
- Peyton: 23-42, 270 yds, 1 td, 1 int
- Brady: 23-42, 280 yds, 3 td, 0 int
1/24/16: NE 18, at Den 20 (playoffs)
- Peyton: 17-32, 176 yds, 2 td, 0 int
- Brady: 27-56, 310 yds, 1 td, 2 int
Brady finished 10-7 against Peyton, 2-3 in the playoffs. Fun to look back.
Wait a minute - the Brockstar played the 11/29/15 game.
Edit: you also missed 10/7/12: NE 31, DEN 21
Brady 23-31, 1 TD, 0 INT, 223
Manning 31-44, 3 TD, 0 INT, 337
This seems about right to me. I love Tarkenton, but I don't think he has a chance.
Anyone who acts shocked when Brees and Rodgers aren't on the list hasn't been paying attention. But, that's a loud contingent, so I'm sure monocles will go tumbling.
Edit: Just to clarify, I love the way Tarkenton played. He was a precursor to the modern day scrambling quarterback, and was probably a player ahead of his time. I.... do not agree with his politics. And I'll leave it at that.
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Unanimous vote getters were Rice, Hutson and Berry. Crazylegs Hirsch, wow, they really are looking out for representation of the old timers. Hirsh’s first three years were with the Chicago Rockets. Personally I like picking guys across all the decades instead of thinking like “could he make an NFL team today?”
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Marvin owes Peyton a watch or something for making this list. Great receiver but not close to the stature of this list. TO, Bruce, Joiner jump out most to me. I’m relieved Lynn Swann wasn’t on here, frankly I was expecting it.
Harrison was great in college and was a total stud in the NFL, whether we like that or not. Obviously he had a great QB throwing him the ball. But so did lots of these other guys.
From 1999-2006, here was Harrison's average season: 105 rec, 1,425 yds, 13.6 ypc, 13 td
From 1994-2000, here was Carter's average season: 99 rec, 1,198 yds, 12.1 ypc, 12 td
Harrison was, statistically, a better version of Carter. Not by a lot, but by enough.
I thought TO should have been on the list but Harrison was pretty frigging awesome. 9th all time in receiving yds. 5th all time in receiving TDs. 5th all time in receptions.
Hard to argue why Harrison should be left off the list.
From 1999-2006, here was Harrison's average season: 105 rec, 1,425 yds, 13.6 ypc, 13 td
From 1994-2000, here was Carter's average season: 99 rec, 1,198 yds, 12.1 ypc, 12 td
Harrison was, statistically, a better version of Carter. Not by a lot, but by enough.
I thought TO should have been on the list but Harrison was pretty frigging awesome. 9th all time in receiving yds. 5th all time in receiving TDs. 5th all time in receptions.
Hard to argue why Harrison should be left off the list.
My argument would be that Manning went to Denver in 2012 and made D Thomas a 94 catch / 1,434 yard / 10 TD receiver. And Eric Decker an 85 catch / 1,064 yard / 13 TD receiver.
In 2013, D Thomas was 92 / 1,430 / 14 and Decker was 87 / 1,288 / 11.
In 2014 D Thomas was 111 / 1,619 / 11 and E Sanders replaced Decker and went 101 / 1,404 / 9.
So the 3 year average for WR1 was 99 catches for 1,494 yards and 11.7 TDs. That is really close to the numbers you posted above. And the 3 year average for WR2 was 91 catches for 1,252 yards and 11 TDs. In the neighborhood too.
Sanders has been a very good player, and D Thomas was pretty good back in his prime, and Decker was a fine player. But none of those guys are even really close to HoF caliber. But they all put up very similar stats when paired with Manning. So was it the WR, or was it the QB? I'd argue very strongly it was the QB.
There’s no question that Peyton played a big role in Harrison’s production. Obviously so. But Harrison was GREAT. Rice had Montana and Young throwing to him most of his career. Even Gannon was an MVP.
And Harrison did it for a long long time? Not just a few seasons.
I guess I'll just end my part of this conversation with this: I don't think he was, in any way, UNdeserving of being on this list.
And Harrison did it for a long long time? Not just a few seasons.
I guess I'll just end my part of this conversation with this: I don't think he was, in any way, UNdeserving of being on this list.
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Seeing some of these highlights from 2007, my god, he was magnificent. So deserving of this honor. But made me so sad to think what could have been.
One of the highlights of the roundtable talks, how Bill says that Randy comes in and immediately “coaches” him on how to handle defenses against that team. Randy knows football!!
You can't compare receiving stats before and after we went to the Polian rules. And Harrison was the actual intended beneficiary of those rules, so nuts to him even more.
Not to say that Carter was or wasn't better. You just can't argue based on the stats. He was absolutely killing it late in his career with the benefit of handcuffed defensive backs.
Ok so disregard any QB or WR that has played the majority of his time post 2004. And we'd better have included a hell of a lot more DBs from this same time period for the (reverse of) the same reason.
That means no Brady, no Rodgers, no Brees, no Peyton, etc.
Brady will be on set with Bill for the QB show.
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1209135251022323714?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1209135251022323714?s=20
No it means you have to view the passing stats explosion post-Polian in the context of a highly inflationary era and apply discounts to the #s.
I've done this and using Marino as the baseline passing standard for greatness in yards pre-Polian, it appears that discounting post-Polian QBs # by about 15% makes comps apples to apples.
I remember as a kid, if a QB threw for 200 yards in a game it was a good game, 250 a great game, 300 was special. Now 400+ is common. It just ain't the same game.
Captaincoop appeared to be dismissing Marvin Harrison because he excelled in the modern passing game (with its Polish rules in place). If he’s going to dismiss Harrison for that, he has to dismiss Peyton and Brady and Brees and Rodgers (based on stats) for the same reason.
If we are just gonna look at talent, well Harrison has it as much as pretty much all the other greats.
It's just not that binary, though. I think saying we should discount passing numbers from the past ~15 years makes a lot of sense when comparing to earlier eras.
That does not mean that anyone who has played in those 15 years automatically doesn't qualify as an all time great though---it just says we have to consider and adjust for era.
So, we might say Harrison's 143 catches in 2002 is roughly equivalent to Herman Moore's 123 in 1995 or even to Art Monk's 106 in 1984. But if we say that, it still says he had a number of catches equal to the best single-seasons ever. So then we look at how many years like that, yards per catch those years, etc. to compare across those guys, with some adjustment for era. What's wrong with that as an approach?
Nothing (though I think the term “discounting” is too strong). I think when you do that and look at his career production, he stacks up well among the all time greats.
If you are uncomfortable with the term discounting to adjust for inflation, how about the "cost of passing adjustment" to discount for inflationary passing stats.
Happy Holidays
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Yeah "discounting" is appropriate, nobody said "dismiss" or "disregard" except BJ. I was surprised by Harrison over TO and Carter. His stats are excellent but I just never thought of Harrison as quite that guy....you'd think that the second best WR of the last twenty-five years would have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer, not in on his third try.
I wonder if TO's exclusion is in part the view that he was a distraction for multiple teams. His numbers are similar in aggregate to Harrison, but he got there in a different way---longer career, more good but not great years, more variation. But, he also was (at his peak) better in my view and he was a more complete player. And while TO played with great QBs, he did not have the "Peyton and a dome his whole career" factor that Harrison did.
This might dovetail a bit with Collinsworth's remark last night that while Brady's inclusion is no surprise, there might be some surprises about who was left out among QBs.
Yeah it appeared to me that the term "discount" meant "dismiss" instead of "adjusting for the era", so if you meant "adjusting" then that's my bad. I'm totally good with adjusting for the era as that makes a world of sense. I think even if you do that, Harrison's portfolio remains quite strong. He's not Rice or Moss, and I think TO was better, but Harrison wasn't undeserving of being on the list. Dude was incredible and immensely productive, even given the era in which he played. Don't forget, 9 of his 13 seasons were pre-Polian rules (which came after the 2004 season), and he had two years of Jim Harbaugh and a rookie Peyton Manning throwing to him - those three seasons are nearly a quarter of his NFL career. So you can't really discount Harrison's career too much.
I wonder how helpful pro-football-reference's AV number is, as I believe it adjusts for context.
Top 5 AV seasons:
Harrison: 20, 17, 16, 16, 15 (16.8 avg peak)
Carter: 15, 13, 12, 12, 11 (12.6 avg peak)
Owens: 18, 16, 15, 15, 13 (15.4 avg peak)
Career AV:
Harrison: 161
Carter: 135
Owens: 165
Avg AV per season:
Harrison: 12.4
Carter: 8.4
Owens: 11.0
Again, Harrison stacks up really well with these guys.
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Interesting...if you look at Jerry Rice's pro-football-reference web page, scroll down to "most similar", and from Rice's 9th year on, his #1 or #2 comp is...Marvin Harrison. Moss being the other one. Obviously nobody was as good as Rice, but for Harrison to be, with Moss, the best comparison to Rice? Yeah, he deserves to be on the list of all-time great WRs.
I hope so. Joe Cool is still cool. Also, one is the childhood hero of the other, and Tom was even at “the catch” game in January 1982. We are so lucky the 49ers, and everyone else, didn’t draft Tom before BB.
Top comps:
Moss*, Wayne, Rice*, Alworth*, Owens*, Warfield*, Irvin*
* denotes Hall of Famer
Yeah, Wayne is a little outlier in the group, but he had a hell of a career too, just so we all remember.
And think of it this way: Harrison was probably closer to Wayne than he was to Rice. But of all the receivers in NFL history that stack up with Jerry Rice (the undisputed, unquestioned greatest of all time at the position, by a wide margin), the top two are Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison.
Obviously this image isn't scientific but just as an illustration (and this isn't to say these are the top four WRs of all time, obviously...but they're the ones we've been talking about):
Rice -------------------> Moss -------------> Harrison ---------> Wayne
I'm a little late to the receiver party, but did TO get Albert Belled from the 100 team?
Largent was good but IMO and this is from memory he wasn't TO, Megatron, or one of my favs, Fred Biletnikoff.
Largent was good but IMO and this is from memory he wasn't TO, Megatron, or one of my favs, Fred Biletnikoff.
Yeah, TO got Albert Belled, but Largent is no slouch. When it came to the record books, he was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice. When Largent retired in 1989, he was #1 in NFL history in catches, yards and receiving touchdowns (he's still #9 on the receiving touchdowns list) and he was 6th all time in touchdowns, period at 101, at the time. Considering the time period, Largent is definitely deserving, IMO.
Been thinking about the QB list and want to get my picks in so I can feel smart if I end up being right. My guesses are
TB12 (confirmed)
Manning
Favre
Montana (confirmed)
Marino
Elway
Starr
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Trying to spread it out over every era makes it hard and leaves a lot of deserving people off the list. Given the hints dropped that the 10 they picked are going to make people go nuts I have to guess that a few notable names get snubbed. Rodgers, Brees, and Young immediately come to mind if I’m close here.
Edit: seems Kliq and I think alike
TB12 (confirmed)
Manning
Favre
Montana (confirmed)
Marino
Elway
Starr
Unitas
Graham
Baugh
Trying to spread it out over every era makes it hard and leaves a lot of deserving people off the list. Given the hints dropped that the 10 they picked are going to make people go nuts I have to guess that a few notable names get snubbed. Rodgers, Brees, and Young immediately come to mind if I’m close here.
Edit: seems Kliq and I think alike
Chase Stuart had a couple really good blog posts on the QB list. For those who didn't get a chance to read them, links here and here.
Calls Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Montana, Manning, and Brady locks. Marino he basically calls a lock as well. The last three spots are up for grabs. His guess for those last three spots: Favre, Elway, and Starr. Not necessarily who he thinks should be on the list, but who he thinks will be on the list, based on how they've picked the spots up to this point.
Good reads, for those who are interested in this stuff.
Calls Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Montana, Manning, and Brady locks. Marino he basically calls a lock as well. The last three spots are up for grabs. His guess for those last three spots: Favre, Elway, and Starr. Not necessarily who he thinks should be on the list, but who he thinks will be on the list, based on how they've picked the spots up to this point.
Good reads, for those who are interested in this stuff.
He seems like a really likable guy if you ignore the whole unsolicited dick pic thing. Which, of course, would be a big thing to ignore.
Getting his jollies off on watching a deer he shot drown in a puddle always turned me off, too.