New Rays stadium?

[genoasalami]

St. Petersburg City Council will vote on a new stadium deal for the Rays today. It looks like it will pass, but nothing is a lock in this saga. Pinellas County commisioners vote later in July looks like an easy pass...... The plan is for a development at the current Trop site that is based on the Battery (Braves) development up in in ATL.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/st-petersburg/2024/07/17/rays-generate-positivity-ahead-st-petersburg-stadium-vote/

 

[Humphrey]

It passed. It begs the question: what did a new ballpark do for the Marlins and why (or should I say, why not; they are still near the bottom in attendance).

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I'm a little confused about the new Rays stadium proposal. Obviously the Trop is a dump, but hasn't the biggest obstacle to better attendance been the location of the stadium and the route/traffic involved for most of the area's population (Tampa proper) to get there? Now they're going to build on the same site but hope that making it more of a destination with the Battery-style development will bring more people out?

 

[axx]

I'm a little confused about the new Rays stadium proposal. Obviously the Trop is a dump, but hasn't the biggest obstacle to better attendance been the location of the stadium and the route/traffic involved for most of the area's population (Tampa proper) to get there? Now they're going to build on the same site but hope that making it more of a destination with the Battery-style development will bring more people out?

It's one of those "Well, if we can get the Government to pay for it, does it really matter" type deals.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I'm a little confused about the new Rays stadium proposal. Obviously the Trop is a dump, but hasn't the biggest obstacle to better attendance been the location of the stadium and the route/traffic involved for most of the area's population (Tampa proper) to get there? Now they're going to build on the same site but hope that making it more of a destination with the Battery-style development will bring more people out?

I never understood the whole, "It takes so long to get to the stadium, so I'm not going" thought process. I live maybe 13 miles from Fenway Park. If there's a game at 7:00 on a weekday, I need to leave my house two hours beforehand to get there in order to see the first pitch. Of course, I park about a mile away from the Park and walk there, but even if I didn't and parked in a lot, chances are I'd have to leave well before 6:00 to be there, in my seats, at 7:00.

Is there a magical stadium experience anywhere where one doesn't have to leave an hour plus before game time to get to the park? Or is the Tampa experience so miserable?

 

[ookami7m]

I'm a little confused about the new Rays stadium proposal. Obviously the Trop is a dump, but hasn't the biggest obstacle to better attendance been the location of the stadium and the route/traffic involved for most of the area's population (Tampa proper) to get there? Now they're going to build on the same site but hope that making it more of a destination with the Battery-style development will bring more people out?

I think the idea is that if there are other things around the stadium to do it becomes less onerous to drive there

 

[axx]

Is there a magical stadium experience anywhere where one doesn't have to leave an hour plus before game time to get to the park? Or is the Tampa experience so miserable?

Florida teams in general don't draw well. The excuse for the Miami teams is that they are in bad areas.

Basically a developer is going to make a ton of money and funnel some back to the Pols. Which is why this is happening.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I never understood the whole, "It takes so long to get to the stadium, so I'm not going" thought process. I live maybe 13 miles from Fenway Park. If there's a game at 7:00 on a weekday, I need to leave my house two hours beforehand to get there in order to see the first pitch. Of course, I park about a mile away from the Park and walk there, but even if I didn't and parked in a lot, chances are I'd have to leave well before 6:00 to be there, in my seats, at 7:00.

Is there a magical stadium experience anywhere where one doesn't have to leave an hour plus before game time to get to the park? Or is the Tampa experience so miserable?

I've never been to Tampa/St. Pete so I don't know what the experience is like. But from what I've seen and heard, it's not so much the distance/time but the traffic. I always pictured it as if the Sox moved out to Foxboro only it was still the old stadium with nothing around it (and everything south and west of 495 was water). Traffic is bad enough as is but add in Red Sox traffic on 95/495/1 four nights a week every other week...forget it. So this new proposal sounds to me like they're just building Gillette/Patriot Place and hoping that will make the traffic worthwhile.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I've never been to Tampa/St. Pete so I don't know what the experience is like. But from what I've seen and heard, it's not so much the distance/time but the traffic. I always pictured it as if the Sox moved out to Foxboro only it was still the old stadium with nothing around it (and everything south and west of 495 was water). Traffic is bad enough as is but add in Red Sox traffic on 95/495/1 four nights a week every other week...forget it. So this new proposal sounds to me like they're just building Gillette/Patriot Place and hoping that will make the traffic worthwhile.

I've never been to T/StP either which is why I'm trying to gauge whether this is just "regular pain-in-the-ass traffic" that everyone needs to go through to get 30,000+ people into an area that was not built for it; or if it's truly apocalyptic traffic where folks are constantly questioning their sanity of going to a Rays game.

I mean all traffic sucks. No one likes it. What I'm interested in hearing more about is when you said, "it's not so much the distance/time but the traffic". What does that mean exactly? Is it bumper-to-bumper traffic but it moves okay? You probably don't have an answer to this, which is cool--you've never been there--but every time you hear about the Rays not drawing flies, it's always the intense traffic issue. No one, that I've seen anyway, has ever been able to identify what that means.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I've never been to T/StP either which is why I'm trying to gauge whether this is just "regular pain-in-the-ass traffic" that everyone needs to go through to get 30,000+ people into an area that was not built for it; or if it's truly apocalyptic traffic where folks are constantly questioning their sanity of going to a Rays game.

I mean all traffic sucks. No one likes it. What I'm interested in hearing more about is when you said, "it's not so much the distance/time but the traffic". What does that mean exactly? Is it bumper-to-bumper traffic but it moves okay? You probably don't have an answer to this, which is cool--you've never been there--but every time you hear about the Rays not drawing flies, it's always the intense traffic issue. No one, that I've seen anyway, has ever been able to identify what that means.

The biggest complaint I've seen involves crossing the bay. There are only two options, both involving a long stretch of highway over water where there are no off-ramps or places to turn around if you change your mind. There are no side street, local route short-cuts to use if traffic gets heavy. I can't imagine it's ever as high volume as Boston or NYC or DC at peak rush hour, so maybe it wouldn't feel like much of a big deal to us. But apparently, something about it has been a barrier for a lot of folks down there.

 

[axx]

Just looking at the map it does look awkward getting there. It's still another 10 miles to St Pete across the southern of the two bridges near Tampa. Google Maps right now says 20 minutes.

 

[joe dokes]

From the half-dozen times I've driven past Trop, it's as though Fenway was on the Cape. No alternate routes to avoid at least *some* of the rush-hour traffic that gets commingled with the ballgame traffic. As bad as Fenway traffic can be, you can leave highways from any direction from several miles away.

 

[mauf]

Breaking this out of one of the megathreads.

And here’s a bit of history about the current stadium that I didn’t know. (Tl;dr version — it was one of those “urban renewal” projects that didn’t end well for many of the people who were displaced.)

https://www.fox13news.com/news/gas-plant-district-history-st-pete

 

[Mantush]

It’s a terrible location and building a new park there isn’t going to change anything. They are supposed to be making some improvements to the highways, particularly the bridge from Tampa into St. Pete, but I don’t think it’ll do anything meaningful to improve attendance. To me, the smarter play would have been to move closer to I4 or go to Ybor if they are intent on staying in the area. Tropicana, for all its faults, isn’t that bad of a stadium, and I’d go to more games if I didn’t have to sit in 4 hours of traffic from Orlando to attend a game.

 

[luckiestman]

I think the stadium is really bad but better than it used to be. Location sucks to get to

Bucs, Magic, Lightning all seem to draw fine from the times I have been, Rays place is empty. Lightning have a great location.

 

[Van Everyman]

What happened to the 700 year lease issue? Wasn’t that the thing that bound the Rays to the Trop for virtual perpetuity?

Also, what kind of up-is-down world am I living in where the last two posters each said the Trop isn’t so bad?

 

[Humphrey]

Ironic that hockey's doing well in Florida and baseball is not.

Another franchise that threatened to move to obscurity at The Trop was the Giants....which would have left the Bay Area to the Athletics.

"In the wake of the disappointing 1989 World Series sweep, a local ballot initiative to fund a new stadium in San Francisco failed, threatening the franchise's future in the city. After the 1992 season, owner Bob Lurie, who had previously saved the franchise from moving to Toronto in 1976, put the team up for sale. Robert E. Rich Jr. proposed buying the team and moving them to Pilot Field as the New York Giants of Buffalo, but adding seats to the park would have forced the club to miss the 1993 season, which Lurie found unacceptable.[4] A group of investors from St. Petersburg led by Vince Naimoli reached an agreement to purchase the team and move them to the Tampa Bay area, but the National League owners voted against the acquisition.[5] San Francisco mayor Frank Jordan made it a top priority to retain the team, and recruited local real estate billionaire Walter Shorenstein to help organize a local team of investors.[6] Wally Haas, the owner of the Oakland Athletics at the time, agreed to grant the Giants exclusive rights to the South Bay so the Giants could explore all potential local sites for a new stadium and at least help to keep the team in the Bay Area. The team was instead sold in another last-minute deal[7] to an ownership group including managing general partner Peter Magowan, former CEO of supermarket chain Safeway, and Harmon and Sue Burns. "

 

[trekfan55]

Ironic that hockey's doing well in Florida and baseball is not.

Another franchise that threatened to move to obscurity at The Trop was the Giants....which would have left the Bay Area to the Athletics.

"In the wake of the disappointing 1989 World Series sweep, a local ballot initiative to fund a new stadium in San Francisco failed, threatening the franchise's future in the city. After the 1992 season, owner Bob Lurie, who had previously saved the franchise from moving to Toronto in 1976, put the team up for sale. Robert E. Rich Jr. proposed buying the team and moving them to Pilot Field as the New York Giants of Buffalo, but adding seats to the park would have forced the club to miss the 1993 season, which Lurie found unacceptable.[4] A group of investors from St. Petersburg led by Vince Naimoli reached an agreement to purchase the team and move them to the Tampa Bay area, but the National League owners voted against the acquisition.[5] San Francisco mayor Frank Jordan made it a top priority to retain the team, and recruited local real estate billionaire Walter Shorenstein to help organize a local team of investors.[6] Wally Haas, the owner of the Oakland Athletics at the time, agreed to grant the Giants exclusive rights to the South Bay so the Giants could explore all potential local sites for a new stadium and at least help to keep the team in the Bay Area. The team was instead sold in another last-minute deal[7] to an ownership group including managing general partner Peter Magowan, former CEO of supermarket chain Safeway, and Harmon and Sue Burns. "

After all that, isn’t the Giants stadium (I cannot keep up with the corporate names) privately financed?

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

What happened to the 700 year lease issue? Wasn’t that the thing that bound the Rays to the Trop for virtual perpetuity?

Also, what kind of up-is-down world am I living in where the last two posters each said the Trop isn’t so bad?

I thought it was a 30 year lease ending after the 2027 season?

The Trop probably rocks if you live next door to it, don't like crowds, and want cheap tickets with the ability to shuffle within a few rows of the field most nights.

 

[8slim]

I've never been to T/StP either which is why I'm trying to gauge whether this is just "regular pain-in-the-ass traffic" that everyone needs to go through to get 30,000+ people into an area that was not built for it; or if it's truly apocalyptic traffic where folks are constantly questioning their sanity of going to a Rays game.

I mean all traffic sucks. No one likes it. What I'm interested in hearing more about is when you said, "it's not so much the distance/time but the traffic". What does that mean exactly? Is it bumper-to-bumper traffic but it moves okay? You probably don't have an answer to this, which is cool--you've never been there--but every time you hear about the Rays not drawing flies, it's always the intense traffic issue. No one, that I've seen anyway, has ever been able to identify what that means.

My father moved to Lakeland, Florida nearly 15 years ago, which is ~35 miles east of Tampa. As others mentioned, the only way to get to the Trop is to drive through Tampa and over bridge to St. Pete. Which means another ~20 miles and hitting allll the traffic on a weekday. The vast majority of the population in the Tampa Bay region is from Tampa to the east and south. Coming from the south requires traversing a congested bridge as well.

By all accounts it really sucks to get to the park. Plus, we're talking about a region that is loaded with older folks. These could be the fans that turnout, if not for the Rays, but to support their teams from up north (Sox, Yanks, Tigers, White Sox, etc.). But older people just aren't making that trip.

And when the ballpark experience sucks like the traffic... well, attendance is going to suffer. They really should have built a new park in downtown Tampa or to the east. Totally agree with the comment that the Trop in St. Pete is like putting a new Fenway on the Cape.

There have been several times when I was visiting my folks and the Sox were playing at the Rays. Every time I considered going, then Google Mapped it in the afternoon and said no thanks. It's easier to watch on TV and have more pool time.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

The biggest complaint I've seen involves crossing the bay. There are only two options, both involving a long stretch of highway over water where there are no off-ramps or places to turn around if you change your mind. There are no side street, local route short-cuts to use if traffic gets heavy. I can't imagine it's ever as high volume as Boston or NYC or DC at peak rush hour, so maybe it wouldn't feel like much of a big deal to us. But apparently, something about it has been a barrier for a lot of folks down there.

According to this article: https://ballparkdigest.com/2023/09/19/new-rays-ballpark-1-3b-600-million-public-contribution/. Hines is a smart development company; they're investing $6.5B so they must have some data to support this.

​

One question that’s popped up since the announcement yesterday of a new Rays ballpark in St. Pete: Why the team decided to stick with St. Petersburg and not move forward with a new ballpark in the Ybor City area of Tampa. The answer, from Rays president Brian Auld, is that there’s now a proven track history of large developments economically working with ballparks as a centerpiece; i.e., the Battery in Atlanta. In addition, the last five years have seen changes in the Tampa Bay market, with population growth in downtown St. Petersburg, a marked rise in the attendance for the Rays this season and changes in work habits (more employees working from home means more St. Petersburg and Pinellas County residents avoiding the daily commute to Tampa), per the Tampa Bay Times:​

​

“One of the things I’ve said multiple times is we’re in the same location as we were five years ago, but I really do feel like we’re in a different city,” Auld said.​

​

“There are so many (new condos and apartment buildings) all across the city, and all across this region, that I do believe it has fundamentally changed this region’s, and this city’s, ability to support our team….”​

​

“It’s all kind of starting and building on itself. And that’s enough to give us the confidence to go forward with it … to say, hey, we’re ready to take this risk. And it’s not like a county and city aren’t jumping with us. We’re in it together, our successes will be joined. And it’s exciting.​

​

“But, yeah, I’ll be the first to tell you, even five years ago, it was hard to imagine thinking this was going to be a great idea.”​

 

[Humphrey]

Avg this year is 16.6, last year 17.7. They were steadily in the 15s before the pandemic.

 

[VORP Speed]

Downtown St Pete is booming. It used to be a wasteland with absolutely nothing going on. The issue with the Trop location wasn’t just Trop location, but that it’s an awful airplane hangar of a building that was located in a cultural desert. St Pete is growing faster than Tampa now and the new development plus everything that is quickly springing up in walkable distance around it is going to make the area totally different going forward. Think of the Seaport in Boston. That’s what’s underway in St Pete.
The Rays know what they’re doing here.

 

[genoasalami]

I've lived in Tampa the last 35 years ...

Some observations about the new stadium plan.

No. St. Petersburg is not an ideal location for a new ballpark. It would work better in downtown Tampa. Problem was, there just wasn't a formula involving public money that was going to work on the Tampa side of the Bay. The options literally were. Make it happen in St Pete or move.

And yes, it is a pain to get to downtown St Pete for a LOT of the population base. This is a huge, booming market with incredible growth north of Tampa ...in fact, there is sprawl in every direction that ultimately makes it a long drive to St Pete to catch a game that involves going over a very long bridge. One thing not mentioned here is that by the time the new park opens there will be a new bridge (Howard Frankland) over the Bay with a dedicated high speed lane. That should help a lot.

St Petersburg has changed since the great recession. Ton of new condos and apartments. It is no longer "God's waiting room" It's a hip city that is getting bigger all the time. Four years from now, when the new park opens it will be even more vibrant than it is now.

The plan is not to simply build a cool new park, but to mimic the development at the Battery in ATL. People do like a good time here and there is a HUGE difference between catching a game in a glorified aircraft hangar compared to a new one with all the bells and whistles surrounded by bars, shopping, hotels etc.

So, while the location is not ideal, there is enough growth here and if the development plan does come together as a DESTINATION instead of simply a new covered stadium I think it will work.