NCAA Tournament Final Four game thread
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energy didn't seem to be a problem for Duke in 1991 after they beat undefeated Vegas. Lousy excuse IMOSemperFidelisSox said:
there are teams that are hated just because they win all the time, but that is not the case with Duke. I'm sure there are a some people who hate them alone for that reason, but to me and I think a majority of others there are many other reasons.SumnerH said:
Do you think the Patriots are only hated because they win all the time? I think there are plenty more reasons why they're hated as well.
So we've all heard that the freshman scored 60 points last night for Duke.
In Coach K's previous 4 titles, freshman scored a TOTAL of 23 points. Only 3 freshman had even scored in title game for Duke before last night.
EDIT: The 3 freshman to have scored for Duke in title game win before last night: Parks (4 points), Duhon (9 points), Grant Hill (10 points)
In Coach K's previous 4 titles, freshman scored a TOTAL of 23 points. Only 3 freshman had even scored in title game for Duke before last night.
EDIT: The 3 freshman to have scored for Duke in title game win before last night: Parks (4 points), Duhon (9 points), Grant Hill (10 points)
When teams win a lot, people actively seek out reasons to hate them. Did anyone care how surly Belichick was after 2001? Nah, he had only won one and was a cinderella team, so he was just a genius. Do you think anyone would have given a shit about Spygate if it was the Bills? Deflategate if it was Carolina or Minnesota? When teams win a lot at the expense of others, the natural reactions are anger and jealousy and after time the focus just shifts to tearing them down in an attempt to minimize their accomplishments. In today's day of TMZ sports, it's worse than ever.BoSoxFink said:
Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
You mean Bo Ryan? The guy who has never--not once--graduated a black player at Wisconsin? The guy who rails against Duke's "rent a player" model but graduates less than 40% of his players?
Over the years I have given a ton of thought as to why everyone hates Duke, as it is somewhat bothersome and hard to shake at times. Ultimately I think it comes down to a unique combination of factors - a perfect storm that isn't really possible to replicate.
In no particular order:
- white "stars" who were probably somewhat overrated (at least in terms of ability); there seems to be an attitude from the public of "that guy is nothing special, I could do that, he is just a white schmoe". Wojo is obviously #1 on this list, but going all the way back to Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Cherokee, Chris Collins, Dunleavy, Redick, Paulus, McRoberts, the Plumlees... Duke has always had a lot of really good (collegiate good, at least) white players. This appears to be bothersome to a lot of the public. But in an of itself, that is not the only factor. Sometimes I struggle with the "why" here, because white stars at other schools seem to be loved nationally. Examples include the Buzzcuts, Adam Morrison, every short white guard who all they could do was shoot 3s - thinking schools like Indiana here, there are tons of examples of these types of white players who are adored nationally who, all I could think is if they went to Duke they would be loathed. Gerry McNanamara comes to mind. Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich on KU back in 2003 ish. Tons of others. Could someone maybe help me understand this a bit more?
- privilege. Duke students are seen as snobby white kids from the northeast who are there on granddad's trust fund. And there IS some truth to this matter. But there are also a ton of hard working kids who earn their way in, as well as a ton of foreign born kids just trying to get the best education they can. Shit, I'm the son of a firefighter whose only degree is from a community college he attended nights / weekends. I was the first person on that side of the family with a 4 year college degree. But that stereotype will likely never go away
- they win a lot. No real explanation needed here
- they get all the calls. Kind of a derivative of they win a lot. Hear this a lot with the Pats too. I think this started during the 2001 Final Four when Billy Packer went on and on about how Duke got really lucky that Jason Williams wasn't called for his 3rd foul. From there it has exploded. I don't remember "Duke gets all the calls" being said much before 2001
- they only play McDonald's All Americans. Can't really deny this one. One thing I will say here is it seems as if the high school rankings are somewhat affected by which school the player picks. For example Casey Sanders was a McDonald's All American, the high school player of the year in Florida. He sucked. Many other examples of this. But it's true, Duke gets good players. But so does UK, KU, UNC, etc.
- slapping the floor. Derivative of the white guy factor, I think. I can see why it is annoying. Other teams do it now too - probably moreso as a slap in the face to Duke?
- the Crazies. I can see why most would find them annoying (although I think if you are being fair you would admit they are far more creative and self-sufficient than other student sections). I mean, by definition student sections are annoying. I will say one thing, I've seen games in a lot of different college arenas, the level of intensity in Cameron is different, especially when Duke is behind. But this is all just blah blah blah to most of your ears, understood. But again, they are a student section, every team has a student section.
A lot of schools have some of these pieces, but very few have all of them, and when you add them up you get the pure vitriol hatred that exists.
What am I missing? How do you Duke haters react to my points? I'm genuinely interested in having a good discussion about this.
In no particular order:
- white "stars" who were probably somewhat overrated (at least in terms of ability); there seems to be an attitude from the public of "that guy is nothing special, I could do that, he is just a white schmoe". Wojo is obviously #1 on this list, but going all the way back to Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Cherokee, Chris Collins, Dunleavy, Redick, Paulus, McRoberts, the Plumlees... Duke has always had a lot of really good (collegiate good, at least) white players. This appears to be bothersome to a lot of the public. But in an of itself, that is not the only factor. Sometimes I struggle with the "why" here, because white stars at other schools seem to be loved nationally. Examples include the Buzzcuts, Adam Morrison, every short white guard who all they could do was shoot 3s - thinking schools like Indiana here, there are tons of examples of these types of white players who are adored nationally who, all I could think is if they went to Duke they would be loathed. Gerry McNanamara comes to mind. Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich on KU back in 2003 ish. Tons of others. Could someone maybe help me understand this a bit more?
- privilege. Duke students are seen as snobby white kids from the northeast who are there on granddad's trust fund. And there IS some truth to this matter. But there are also a ton of hard working kids who earn their way in, as well as a ton of foreign born kids just trying to get the best education they can. Shit, I'm the son of a firefighter whose only degree is from a community college he attended nights / weekends. I was the first person on that side of the family with a 4 year college degree. But that stereotype will likely never go away
- they win a lot. No real explanation needed here
- they get all the calls. Kind of a derivative of they win a lot. Hear this a lot with the Pats too. I think this started during the 2001 Final Four when Billy Packer went on and on about how Duke got really lucky that Jason Williams wasn't called for his 3rd foul. From there it has exploded. I don't remember "Duke gets all the calls" being said much before 2001
- they only play McDonald's All Americans. Can't really deny this one. One thing I will say here is it seems as if the high school rankings are somewhat affected by which school the player picks. For example Casey Sanders was a McDonald's All American, the high school player of the year in Florida. He sucked. Many other examples of this. But it's true, Duke gets good players. But so does UK, KU, UNC, etc.
- slapping the floor. Derivative of the white guy factor, I think. I can see why it is annoying. Other teams do it now too - probably moreso as a slap in the face to Duke?
- the Crazies. I can see why most would find them annoying (although I think if you are being fair you would admit they are far more creative and self-sufficient than other student sections). I mean, by definition student sections are annoying. I will say one thing, I've seen games in a lot of different college arenas, the level of intensity in Cameron is different, especially when Duke is behind. But this is all just blah blah blah to most of your ears, understood. But again, they are a student section, every team has a student section.
A lot of schools have some of these pieces, but very few have all of them, and when you add them up you get the pure vitriol hatred that exists.
What am I missing? How do you Duke haters react to my points? I'm genuinely interested in having a good discussion about this.
On pure coaching, I've got K winning this tournament once it was down to four with his players, UK's, and Wisconsin's. I can't see him doing more with MSU than what Izzo did, but he wins the title coaching 3 of the 4 final teams IMO.
tims4wins said:
The Coach K/program hypocrisy element is also a big factor. A lot of people think Coach K is completely full of it with all his talk about "teaching" and "leadership", those insufferable American Express commercials, etc., when their recruiting has to be just as bad as everyone else's to land the McDAA kids they get. This is where the "at least Calipari/Kentucky are (mostly) honest about being corrupt" view comes from. Whether this perspective is fair or accurate, I have no idea, but it's certainly widespread and influences how Duke is perceived.
A corollary of the white "stars" point is that, for a marquee program, Duke hasn't produced many great pros. Grant Hill was great before he got hurt, Kryie Irving is really good, Battier and Boozer have had nice careers, Elton Brand was good for a while, Williams and Hurley had the injuries ... but few real pro stars.
As an ACC fan (UVA) I think a lot of my dislike of Duke, other than the obvious winning and getting all the best players components, stems from the fact that I think Coach K instructs his teams to play in a sort of cheap way that straddles the line of legality and puts a lot of pressure on the officials. They handcheck all the time, they're extremely good at using their bodies to generate just enough contact to throw off opponents without drawing much attention to it. They use charges (and yes, flops) as a legitimate defensive strategy, which I detest. And I swear that on offense it feels like they're coached to overreact to the kind of contact they love to make on defense. They throw their heads back like they've been shot, they drive to the basket borderline out-of-control and fall to the ground in a heap after throwing the ball up. It's just a very aggressive, entirely legal, but ultimately cynical style of play that puts a ton of pressure on the officials to make difficult decisions.
Then you have Coach K himself and his treatment of officials. He bullies them, curses them, and needles them to an extent that would get most other coaches a technical. And the net effect of the way his team plays and the way he treats officials is that yes, I believe Duke does get away with stuff that other teams can't. And I'll admit a lot of this is my perception, I can't back it up with numbers, but there's definitely more than a kernel of truth there.
The other stuff is just UVA-specific stuff, like how Coach K used to tell everyone his seminal moment as a coach was when he got spanked by 40 or 50 by UVA, and how mad he was that Ralph Sampson played the whole game, until Dan Patrick called him out and said Ralph played 14 minutes. Or how he overshadowed UVA's upset win a couple years ago with his pontificating about court storming, even though all video showed great security and no threats to him or his team at any point. Or how now that UVA's doing well, all of a sudden the Duke media mafia (Bilas, Williams, etc) is talking like college basketball is in crisis, and we have to do something about these teams that play great defense. Again, nothing rational, but what about sports is?
Then you have Coach K himself and his treatment of officials. He bullies them, curses them, and needles them to an extent that would get most other coaches a technical. And the net effect of the way his team plays and the way he treats officials is that yes, I believe Duke does get away with stuff that other teams can't. And I'll admit a lot of this is my perception, I can't back it up with numbers, but there's definitely more than a kernel of truth there.
The other stuff is just UVA-specific stuff, like how Coach K used to tell everyone his seminal moment as a coach was when he got spanked by 40 or 50 by UVA, and how mad he was that Ralph Sampson played the whole game, until Dan Patrick called him out and said Ralph played 14 minutes. Or how he overshadowed UVA's upset win a couple years ago with his pontificating about court storming, even though all video showed great security and no threats to him or his team at any point. Or how now that UVA's doing well, all of a sudden the Duke media mafia (Bilas, Williams, etc) is talking like college basketball is in crisis, and we have to do something about these teams that play great defense. Again, nothing rational, but what about sports is?
tims4wins said:
coremiller said:
I think t4w nails it with the addition of the bolded in coremiller's post. Hell, I'm from a Duke family and I hate Duke. And a lot of it for me is the combination of "privilege" and Coach K hypocrisy.
But putting that aside, there's a lot of ridiculous and misguided anger in the past few pages. For all of their insufferableness, Duke runs a model program and produces great teams year after year. They earned this title and i hope their fans here enjoy it.
Thanks for the feedback guys, I kind of understand the K hate, IMO it is similar to the Belichick hate. And I think someone upthread nailed it when they said Roy Williams was possibly the biggest fraud out there.
Also good point by stevie1der about sports not being entirely rational.
I am enjoying the hell out of this win, I let my worrying about the hatred go a long time ago. I guess it helps to be both a Pats and a Duke fan from that perspective. You just say eff it, bring on the hate. Yeah, BB and the Pats cheat, what are you gonna do about it. Yeah, Duke pays the officials which is why we get all the calls.
In mid-January I predicted this team would lose on the first weekend. They dropped Sulaimon, they tightened up the D, and the rest as they say is history.
Oh and if Decker and Kaminsky played for Duke good lord would everyone hate us... more.
Edit: although having heard K speak in person several times before - he does (or at least used to do) a no-media speech / Q&A with the students every year that isn't recorded - I found him to be one of the most genuine people I have ever been around. It's only one data point, and probably meaningless to most of you. But on the most open stage he could have, without having any agenda to drive home, he just came across as super real and super human. Much moreso than BB IMO.
Also good point by stevie1der about sports not being entirely rational.
I am enjoying the hell out of this win, I let my worrying about the hatred go a long time ago. I guess it helps to be both a Pats and a Duke fan from that perspective. You just say eff it, bring on the hate. Yeah, BB and the Pats cheat, what are you gonna do about it. Yeah, Duke pays the officials which is why we get all the calls.
In mid-January I predicted this team would lose on the first weekend. They dropped Sulaimon, they tightened up the D, and the rest as they say is history.
Oh and if Decker and Kaminsky played for Duke good lord would everyone hate us... more.
Edit: although having heard K speak in person several times before - he does (or at least used to do) a no-media speech / Q&A with the students every year that isn't recorded - I found him to be one of the most genuine people I have ever been around. It's only one data point, and probably meaningless to most of you. But on the most open stage he could have, without having any agenda to drive home, he just came across as super real and super human. Much moreso than BB IMO.
Now I don't like you simply because of the fact that you ruin my "all Duke fans/students are assholes!" Narrative. Damn you!tims4wins said:Thanks for the feedback guys, I kind of understand the K hate, IMO it is similar to the Belichick hate. And I think someone upthread nailed it when they said Roy Williams was possibly the biggest fraud out there.
Also good point by stevie1der about sports not being entirely rational.
I am enjoying the hell out of this win, I let my worrying about the hatred go a long time ago. I guess it helps to be both a Pats and a Duke fan from that perspective. You just say eff it, bring on the hate. Yeah, BB and the Pats cheat, what are you gonna do about it. Yeah, Duke pays the officials which is why we get all the calls.
In mid-January I predicted this team would lose on the first weekend. They dropped Sulaimon, they tightened up the D, and the rest as they say is history.
Oh and if Decker and Kaminsky played for Duke good lord would everyone hate us... more.
Edit: although having heard K speak in person several times before - he does (or at least used to do) a no-media speech / Q&A with the students every year that isn't recorded - I found him to be one of the most genuine people I have ever been around. It's only one data point, and probably meaningless to most of you. But on the most open stage he could have, without having any agenda to drive home, he just came across as super real and super human. Much moreso than BB IMO.
There was a period coinciding with the Reddick years, give or take, where the media got insufferable with respect to Duke. It was largely Dickie V. and ESPN based, but they were so over covered and treated like the only team in nation for a period where they were not that it was miserable. Particularly if you were just a basketball fan, or specifically a west coast basketball fan, and you couldn't escape it, and the hate was inevitable. Reddick had this "best three point shooter" label, and was like tenth in the NCAA and like ten percentage points behind some kid at Arizona. They were already on the verge of hateability because of all the things mentioned -- I would also add one particularly ridiculous late in the tournament game against Maryland where the officiating was really absurdly lopsided fueling the "they get all the calls" stuff. Plus the fact that they seemed to get some easy trips in the tournament, always playing in NC in the first rounds.
So all this was simmering just below the boiling point, and then Reddick read his awful poetry on ESPN, and no objective person could take it anymore.
So all this was simmering just below the boiling point, and then Reddick read his awful poetry on ESPN, and no objective person could take it anymore.
I never got on the hate Reddick bandwagon, but man do I hate Shane Battier. A lot of it is for what he did in the NBA, though Dicky V was particularly over the top with his Shane Battier love. OHHHHHHHHHHHH SHANE BATIERRRRRR OHHHHHHHHHH BABBYYYYYYY. I like Dicky V, and I think he's done a ton for the sport, really, but the Battier stuff is always the one thing that stood out for me with him. Even for Dicky V, the Dicky V factor was off the charts.
Right, kind of like Jeter with Sox fans. Great player, but shoved down our throats. Understandable.
Well, that and his love affair with the flopping that Coach K promulgated, which has done more to diminish both the college and pro games than any other on-court development in the past 30 years. There's a great video on youtube of Paulus flopping where he is almost completely missed by the player he's "guarding."
Coach K spoke at a National Sales Meeting I went to 20 years ago, and he was great. In other years we had Lou Holtz and Al McGuire. All really interesting, but when off the podium, K seemed a lot more "normal" than the other two. We had a huge corporate 3 on 3 tournament, and he stuck around, watched, and joked that we re-defined the word "slow." As an aside, he also swears every other word--I was amazed how he could turn that on and off. Anyway, I have nothing against him.tims4wins said:
My dislike for Duke is rooted in the fans/alums. Fair or not, I have a strong perception that the majority are a lot more like DukeSox than tims4wins. Cocky, entitled douchebags are easy to hate.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
I'm curious what makes recruiting players that are so talented the NBA will draft them right away a dirty business.
Coach K and Bo Ryan's (very large) salaries are paid by the popularity of the game, which is built on the players. If the players generate all this revenue and they have the ability to go to the NBA to capture some of that money for themselves, what's so dirty about it? And by extension, what's so wrong with the big program coaches being ok with it? It's the system they live in, designed by the NCAA and NBA.
Sure, if there are actual recruiting violations, that's sleazy. But that's not implied by "attracting the top talent to attend college for 1 year on their way to fame and glory".
DukeSox said:
K also almost entirely cut out media responsibilities during the second half of the 90s when he returned from back surgery, which created a backlash with the media, different from BB but a backlash nonetheless. That said the media doesn't seem to have a problem with K much any more.
Also, maybe I'm wrong about this, but pretty sure dukesox is playing a character to some degree, not unlike Felger.
There are no guarantees that Tyus returns for his sophomore season. Not only did he come to Duke as a package deal with Okafor but I believe they took all of their recruiting visits together. Whoever gets the #2 pick (assuming Towns goes 1) could see tremendous value in promising to use their high 2nd rounder on Jones with a contract to mirror a low 1st to ease the transition of its investment in the then 19-year old Okafor.BigSoxFan said:
I was trying to put my finger on my dislike for Duke, and this paragraph really describes it for me. I irrationally hate flopping and exaggerating contact, in any sport, and it seems to be a core component of Duke's brand of basketball.Stevie1der said:
Wasn't in the championship game, but it ain't just Duke.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2412702-wisconsins-frank-kaminsky-blatantly-flops-vs-Arizona. "The flop was so incredibly bad that his teammates were laughing at him from the bench."
http://fansided.com/2015/03/26/frank-kaminsky-tries-get-away-blatant-flop-video/
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/frank-kaminsky-flop
Look, pointing to this flopping thing is silly. Everyone does it, although I believe someone up thread went so far as to assign origination of this "style" of play to Coach K.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2412702-wisconsins-frank-kaminsky-blatantly-flops-vs-Arizona. "The flop was so incredibly bad that his teammates were laughing at him from the bench."
http://fansided.com/2015/03/26/frank-kaminsky-tries-get-away-blatant-flop-video/
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/frank-kaminsky-flop
Look, pointing to this flopping thing is silly. Everyone does it, although I believe someone up thread went so far as to assign origination of this "style" of play to Coach K.
SoxJox said:
If you're referring to me, I said promulgate, not originate; they're not precisely the same thing.
And I'm not exactly "originating" the idea that Duke is the Harvard of flopping. Here's Redick having some fun talking about it at 2:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcc99c1q1Bk
Also, remember when Redick made his girlfriend sign a contract agreeing to get an abortion? That was something.
Selling calls is a part of the game for the players. Working the officials to get make up calls is part of the game for the coaches.
Some day people will stop whining that players are working for the call while coaches are doing the same. If you aren't accomplishing these things effectively you aren't competing to the best of your ability.
Some day people will stop whining that players are working for the call while coaches are doing the same. If you aren't accomplishing these things effectively you aren't competing to the best of your ability.
HomeRunBaker said:
When doing something on court can result in a fine, as it can in the NBA, I would argue that doing that thing goes beyond "competing to the best of your ability."
A small plane returning from the Final 4 carrying Illinois St.'s associate head coach crashed and claimed his life.
http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/25138999/illinois-state-assistant-torrey-ward-dies-in-plane-crash-after-title-game
http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/25138999/illinois-state-assistant-torrey-ward-dies-in-plane-crash-after-title-game
WayBackVazquez said:
They were 9-3 when he coached his last game for the season, but keep on trolling!
So you're saying that just because something is finable it is bad?WayBackVazquez said:
I don't disagree on flopping, I think it sucks and I think the Jones play was a flop. I think that it does beyond the spirit of why we play, which is to produce awesome results without officials, but have them there to maintain order. I also think it's in every sport at this point, so to point the finger at any team or person is fairly disingenuous also.
But whether something results in a fine doesn't mean shit in terms of how it affects the game. Unless you think cleat color in the NFL is a major problem that should be addressed.
tims4wins said:
No, actually they weren't. He missed some games but was supposedly coming back. When he announced he was done for the season, they were 9-8, and 0-6 in the ACC.
Chuck Z said:
Yes, I think any on-court/on-field play that can result in a fine has been determined to be, like, very much bad.