NBA trade season

nighthob

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I'm pretty ambivalent on Crowder. The three point improvement has been awesome (team-wide improvement + shedding ET and Sully have been huge here) but he's otherwise very limited on O—doesn't attack the rim or make plays at all. Helpful to have but certainly not a deal breaker unless you really need a Butler babysitter, in which case you probably shouldn't be acquiring Butler in the first place.
Boston's intransigence on this point seems to make it clear that they feel they need a babysitter for Butler. Bradley is a better offensive player, and Boston might prefer to keep him if there weren't issues with adding a second alpha that's something of a diva to their clubhouse. Boston already has an alpha, and rather than having the two slug it out the remainder of the season, they seem to want Butler's BFF to act as the mediator. And it's not that unusual.

Think back to the Pierce w/o Walker Celtics prior to the second Big Three era. Without that mediating presence Pierce grated on the rest of the players in the clubhouse. Of course once they added two other raging Type A personalities the Celtics became the team that everyone loved to hate, but that's another story.
 

cheech13

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What first? Even if they finish 2nd worst, it's still nearly 50% they lose their pick, if they keep it it's super valuable, and if they keep it then they lose it unprotected next year.
So can't really easily offer this year or next right? Have to offer it ONLY top 3 this year or 2019. MAybe they want the top 3 upside but not being able to trade it clean this year or next isn't a rebuild chip
Wouldn't it have to be a 2020 pick because of the Stepien rule? You couldn't trade the 2019 pick because of the protections to Philly until after the 2017 draft.

EDIT: Actually, they couldn't trade their own first until 2021. They still owe a pick to Orlando that conveys in 2019 if this year's pick goes to Philly.
 
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nighthob

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I imagine Magic is offering up at least Ingram and a first as we speak. Not sure Brown+Nets 1st beats that.
The Lakers could trade their 2017 #1 if it fell in the top three, if it doesn't the earliest they can convey a pick is 2021. I'm not sure that Ingram and a #1 four years from now, that could fall well into the 20s, is that tough a package to beat. And I like Ingram. But Brown is a pretty high upside player himself, and guaranteed top four pick this year gives them two guys with similar upside.

EDIT: To answer Cheech's question, if they convey their 2017# to Philly, they have to send their 2019 #1 to Orlando to complete the Dwight Howard deal, so 2021 is the earliest first that they can trade (unless they somehow acquire an extra #1 for next season).
 

bowiac

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Boston's intransigence on this point seems to make it clear that they feel they need a babysitter for Butler. Bradley is a better offensive player, and Boston might prefer to keep him if there weren't issues with adding a second alpha that's something of a diva to their clubhouse. Boston already has an alpha, and rather than having the two slug it out the remainder of the season, they seem to want Butler's BFF to act as the mediator. And it's not that unusual.
Alternatively, the Celtics believe in analytics, and think Crowder is good (better than Bradley in particular).

But sure, could be some weird BFFs, two alpha dogs explanation instead.
 

moondog80

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What exactly is the story with Okafor? His box score numbers are pretty good for 21 year old; averaging almost 20 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, shooting over 50% with 1.5 blocks. And yet he's been dead last among centers in RPM in both of his years. I get that the box score doesn't tell the whole story, but wouldn't he have to be historically bad in every non-box score thing for there to be such a discrepancy?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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What exactly is the story with Okafor? His box score numbers are pretty good for 21 year old; averaging almost 20 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, shooting over 50% with 1.5 blocks. And yet he's been dead last among centers in RPM in both of his years. I get that the box score doesn't tell the whole story, but wouldn't he have to be historically bad in every non-box score thing for there to be such a discrepancy?
Watch this and tell me that you can't figure out the story:

Here's the in-depth analysis if you want it: http://fansided.com/2017/02/17/prospect-calibration-jahlil-okafor-salvageable/
 

LondonSox

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Can't play defense, can't run, can't rebound.

And yes they did. Colangelo has had a horseshoe up his ass. He's done nothing smart and Hinkie s loves keep looking better
 

Sam Ray Not

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What a serious fuckup by Philly to not trade Okafor this past June.
Or, you know, pick Porzingis the June before.

I remember the day after the draft trying to persuade a Knicks-fan colleague (who had lusted after Okafor and hated the KP pick, like Stephen A. Smith and the rest of Knicks Knation) that they had dodged a bullet with Okafor and that he was gonna love KP. He was not remotely persuaded. Lol Knicks fans. Imagine how much more sadsack they'd be than they already are if those picks had been reversed? And how much more exciting the Sixers would be?
 

bowiac

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What exactly is the story with Okafor? His box score numbers are pretty good for 21 year old; averaging almost 20 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, shooting over 50% with 1.5 blocks. And yet he's been dead last among centers in RPM in both of his years. I get that the box score doesn't tell the whole story, but wouldn't he have to be historically bad in every non-box score thing for there to be such a discrepancy?
In 2017 so far, Okafor is dead last, at any position, in net rating (min 20 MPG, 30 games). In 2016, he was 2nd from the bottom.

That's raw plus/minus, without the fancy adjustments from RPM, but he is historically bad.
 
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What exactly is the story with Okafor? His box score numbers are pretty good for 21 year old; averaging almost 20 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, shooting over 50% with 1.5 blocks. And yet he's been dead last among centers in RPM in both of his years. I get that the box score doesn't tell the whole story, but wouldn't he have to be historically bad in every non-box score thing for there to be such a discrepancy?
Okafor has good hands and post moves, but that is basically it. He's terrible on defense, doesn't rebound for his size, doesn't block enough shots, and PHI's per 100 possession stats are considerably worse in every category both offensively and defensively with him on the floor.
 

bosox79

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There's maybe 2 teams that could cover up Okafor's flaws, and you'd think with Embiid, Philly would be one of those teams but no. The other team just got DeMarcus Cousins. You can't play him with guys like Gobert, Drummond a la due to spacing. You can't play him with KAT because of the lack of D. Denver doesn't play defense but they just picked up the much better Plumlee anyway. Maybe the Grizzles could hide him since Marc Gasol added a 3 pointer. He literally doesn't fit on any team in the NBA.
 

bosox79

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Okafor has good hands and post moves, but that is basically it. He's terrible on defense, doesn't rebound for his size, doesn't block enough shots, and PHI's per 100 possession stats are considerably worse in every category both offensively and defensively with him on the floor.
He blocks enough shots, just not effectively. His bp36 would be good for 14th in the league. His rebounding would be 93rd. Blocks don't really tell the whole story. He blocks a higher % of shots than Draymond Green. He gets blocks but isn't a shot blocker or inside presence at all.
 

Kliq

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I wanted Okafor to succeed as a fan of great post moves but unfortunately he doesn't look like a starter in the NBA. His issue is that presumably he isn't going to get any faster or more athletic so his deficiencies on defense are always going to be there. Maybe when he gets older he will become a smarter defender and that will improve his play. I think his best case scenario though is as kind of a six-man offensive kind of guy, like a big man Jamal Crawford. I don't think he is a bad player as much as the league has trended away from his skill set and has prioritized different aspects of being a skilled big man that he just doesn't have.
 

cheech13

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How many teams have now talked themselves into thinking Ersan Ilyasova is good at playing basketball? Six?
 

bosox79

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Rubio just started following Porzingis twitter. There were the Rose to Wolves rumors.
 

cheech13

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Ilyasova is fine. He's not good, but he's totally fine in a Jonas Jerebko sort of way.
Yeah I have nothing against the guy. It's just funny that he's been traded five times since the start of last season with each team saying they they thought he'd be an important part of their rotation and that they wanted to keep him long-term.
 

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Clears Cleaver

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It's amazing how these top picks fizzle out so quickly. Remember when the Wolves secured home court in the first round this year when Dunn "fell" to them? Okafor. Are we sure Ingram can play. Bender. Etc
 

LondonSox

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Ingram has been quietly awful this year. I'm surprised. Okafor is less of a surprise tbh. I hoped he could learn defense but he has shown absolutely nothing.

More to the point the sixers are increasingly high pace and high ball movement. Okafor is everything opposite the philosophy

Edit by the way this is why I would love to know if Hinkie was pushed to take him. He took athletes nearly all the time.
 

ALiveH

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Brandon ingram - he looked like KD-lite in college. if he busts that will be another score for FT% and Steals as a predictor of NBA success.
 

LondonSox

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I would never have expected him to be a ~300 three point shooter and a - 21 net rating. Is yeesh.

Most concerning must be the ft% 65% for a shooter is... Bad. You can talk yourself into needing time to adjust and his body is still so slight he could have issues in the NBA but no excuse for that ft number. None.

True shooting 0.45. Not good.
 

rhopkins2323

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Ingram never had the handle or change of direction KD had. Nor did he he have the same flawless mechanics on his shot. Ingram plays very high and straight up.

He's only 19 though. He needs a 3-5 more years before you can really judge. Although, at this point I'm glad JB was the guy the Cs got....and this was off topic.
 

Kliq

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It's way too soon to label guys like Ingram and Bender right now because of how young they are. Okafor might be a bit different because he doesn't have the athleticism; but even with him it might be a bit unfair to label him as one thing or another.
 

mauf

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It's amazing how these top picks fizzle out so quickly. Remember when the Wolves secured home court in the first round this year when Dunn "fell" to them? Okafor. Are we sure Ingram can play. Bender. Etc
I'm ready to label Dunn a bust, but it's too early to judge the other guys who were drafted last summer. Ingram and Bender, in particular, were known to be raw going in.
 

LondonSox

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Think it's fair to ask if Ingram is a sure thing. If he isn't a shooter he has a whole hell of a lot to learn to be anything. Again that true shooting and ft number is a scary red flag.

And I fully agree they need time. But the floor of great skinny shooter who isn't bad at anything is not there. The floor is bust.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah, I'm not high on Ingram and am thrilled that we got Brown instead. At the draft, I really wanted Dunn but think we really dodged a bullet there too. He wouldn't even be beating out Rozier for minutes. And they're almost the exact age.

Ingram still has potential as a scorer but what is his ceiling? Maybe the current version of Andrew Wiggins (i.e., all scoring and not much else)? His body type also scares me. Just doesn't look like a guy that can put much weight on.
 

Sprowl

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Ilyasova is fine. He's not good, but he's totally fine in a Jonas Jerebko sort of way.
He's quite copacetic in a minor European power sort of way.

Yeah I have nothing against the guy. It's just funny that he's been traded five times since the start of last season with each team saying they they thought he'd be an important part of their rotation and that they wanted to keep him long-term.
Factories make widgets. NBA teams trade Ilyasovas. I think of Ersan as a currency.

Yeah, I'm not high on Ingram and am thrilled that we got Brown instead. At the draft, I really wanted Dunn but think we really dodged a bullet there too. He wouldn't even be beating out Rozier for minutes. And they're almost the exact age.

Ingram still has potential as a scorer but what is his ceiling? Maybe the current version of Andrew Wiggins (i.e., all scoring and not much else)? His body type also scares me. Just doesn't look like a guy that can put much weight on.
Ingram is thin and sensitive, like an English poet. He's all willowy, all the time. Jaylen has some brute moves to go along with the acrobatics, and his aggressive overplay on defense is something Ingram will never match. A Smart-Bradley-Brown-Crowder-Horford team could play some lockdown defense.

Still I wish Brown could get more of his layups to stay in the basket.
 

Devizier

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The good news for Bender, Ingram, and Chriss is that Giannis, Lavine, and JR Smith struggled when overexposed as teenagers during their rookie seasons. The bad news is so did Rashad Vaughn, Dejuan Wagner, and Bassy Telfair.
 

DrewDawg

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Sobering to read all of that about Ingram, Dunn, etc. then read lots of posts saying "There's no way we can trade our picks!"
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Sobering to read all of that about Ingram, Dunn, etc. then read lots of posts saying "There's no way we can trade our picks!"
On the other hand Ainge navigated a minefield and landed Brown instead when everyone thought he was the one that would explode in Boston's face.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's hard to evaluate Bender, Ingram, and to a lesser extent Chriss until they bulk up and develop NBA bodies. Some 19 year olds can handle that kind of transformation; some can't.

Apparently, DA soured on Bender after seeing him in person ("He's so skinny"). I wonder if his staff has some research on outcomes of guys who need to physically develop like Bender and Ingram.
 

mauf

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Sobering to read all of that about Ingram, Dunn, etc. then read lots of posts saying "There's no way we can trade our picks!"
Yeah, a top-4 pick is much more about having the chance to control a future All-Star for several seasons than the certainty of landing a solid contributor. I'm in the camp that says you can't trade a pick like that for a second-tier talent like Butler or post-injury George, but I fully recognize that that could backfire.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Sobering to read all of that about Ingram, Dunn, etc. then read lots of posts saying "There's no way we can trade our picks!"
Depends on the draft. Trading the pick in a draft like 2013 is one thing but trading the pick when a team has a chance at an Anthony Davis or KD is another.

2017 may be a draft like 2013 but 2018 looks stacked.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Brandon ingram - he looked like KD-lite in college. if he busts that will be another score for FT% and Steals as a predictor of NBA success.
And if he breaks out, it'll be another score for age-adjusted BPM.

Ingram and Bender are about the same age as Lonzo Ball and Dennis Smith Jr, and eight/ten months younger than Josh Jackson. Maybe Ingram has disappointed a bit, but both I don't think many people expected either guy to make an immediate impact.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Depends on the draft. Trading the pick in a draft like 2013 is one thing but trading the pick when a team has a chance at an Anthony Davis or KD is another.

2017 may be a draft like 2013 but 2018 looks stacked.
Oh NEXT years draft is stacked? Hear that every single year and its exhausting.

Which is it...can we not predict busts like Ingram for 5-6 years or can we predict 17 YOs making for a good draft?